Bugged by Berserks in Civ 3 and in the minds of "History Buffs"

Raging Jonathan

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Just something that has been bugging me for a while. Mostly how the Berserks are percieved by the vast majority of people who know of them.

First off with regards to Civ 3, the Berserks were very few in number, they could never make an entire unit unto themselves like portrayed in Civ. They generally were in brotherhoods of 11 or 12 or were seen as individuals. A Viking general would be lucky to have a single brotherhood let alone the hundreds and even thousands portrayed in Civ.

History's enormous misperception of the Berserk has been a source of considerable frustration to me. Because they do understand what the Berserks were they satiate themselves with unfounded theories and cruel stereotypes. These falsehoods are accepted and challenges to them is often met with scorn and disbelief. They tarnish the title with their ignorance on the subject, their ignorance is not at fault so much as their arrogance to believe they know better.

Amanita Muscaria: It is a hallucinogenic mushroom that is probably the most accepted theory for how the Berserks entered into Berserkgang. It is a cop-out theory, Amanita Muscaria grows during very specific times of year in usually warmer climates and only in the company of only certain trees. It can lead to hightened aggression but it causes intense nausea, vomitting and severe hallucinations. The Berserks entered into gangr year round, in all manner of places, sometimes without their control. Vomitting, nausea, and hallucinations were never reported, and that would also signifigantly decrease their combat effectiveness so much so that they would have been much less feared as warriors.

Alcohol induced Rage: Some believe Berserks went into gangr through heavy drinking. Ludicrous, the amount of alcohol required to enter into a state of uncontrollable rage would reduce a fighter's abilities severely. Puking, poor eye-hand coordination, going unconscious, and not to mention Berserks were highly resistant to pain, and a drunkard sobers up quick with the introduction to pain.

Myth: The most insulting and ignorant of them all. Berserks were spoken of far too much in far too many sources. They were noted in legal documents including those that were made during the Christianization of Scandinavia.

It is difficult to explain what it is. So I'll just explain how it is done and who does it. A small portion of people have the capability to become a Berserk. They are born with it, an ability to substitute all feeling, emotion, and thinking with a strangely euphoric and excited rage during times of hightened adrenalin generally found in times of danger or great physical exertion. It is a different state of being, heightened visual, auditory, and sense of smell. Pain is felt but not in the same manner, you are somewhat aware of it but generally unfeeling. The absence of pain increases strength and speed signifigantly. The skin turns red and puffs out a bit with the surge of blood, sometimes so much that the capillaries in the eyes burst so that you see through red. The excitement of it is immense, all fear is abolished. There is no concern, only the overwhelming and intoxicating desire to feel the thrill of combat with no thought as to personal well-being, who you're attacking, what else is going on, nothing.

It can be brought about artificially. First a stillness of the mind must be achieved, often through meditation. Followed by a dance that builds in frenzy until a palpable peak is reached, guttural vocalization helps and pain in the form of cutting and even burning helps gangr be quickly achieved. It will be so much that the state which was previously mentioned will be entered into.

Since this forum undoubtedly has many history buffs on it, I will hope that your new found understanding will help rectify the misconception of the Berserk. Thank you all.
 
I'm just annoyed by their role in the game. Most UU's have a 1 point advantage over the units they are replacing. The Beserk gets 2 points AND has an ability that is unique in its era! It's absurd.

Fortunately, the AI doesn't know how to use them for crap. I've only played one multiplayer game against Vikings and I wiped the floor with him nice and early out of fear of the Beserks popping up.
 
Hi, and welcome to CivFanatics Forums!
:beer:
First, let me say that Civ3, although GREAT in its whole, has a lot of "historical dumbness" into it, and the Berserk is just the tip of the iceberg.

Think about the Zulu Impi, just to say one. Implementing it as a defensive unit is just plain stupid. Impis were fast attackers armed with a short spear and a light shield good only to stop arrows shoots (perhaps). And the jaguar warrior? Not a prehistoric unit, for sure.

About the Berserk, i confess my ignorance, but it's not necessary to be an expert to realize that most of the things said about them by "experts" or "scientists" is pure smelling crap. All you need is to open a newspaper, just to say one, or reading a basic manual about military science. Soldiers sent in battle under fungi-induced allucinations, or drunk? It's pure nonsense. What commander in the world would send into battle an assault team composed of junkies and drunkards?

From a skeptical point of view, i can state that, probably, Berserks were no more than highly skilled fighters, strong and courageous, possibly trained to increase their rage in the moment of the battle. And they were cruel and bloodthirsty no more that other soldiers of the ancient and medieval era.

Yes, the pure idea of the Berserk, as implemented in Civ3, is wrong. And their position, stats, and cost is questionable as well. What's the point in having them substitute longbowmen? Aren't they fit better as a replacement for, say, medieval infantry units? The amphibious assault ability makes sense, from an historical point of view, but their stats are overrated.

The best thing to do is to mod the game so those "killer units" are no more than an UU as the others. And write a letter to Firaxis, perhaps. You seem quite informed about the whole matter (are you scandinavian?). You should suggest them a better way to implement the Berserk in Civ4.
 
Soldiers sent in battle under fungi-induced allucinations, or drunk? It's pure nonsense. What commander in the world would send into battle an assault team composed of junkies and drunkards?

Actually the biggest fighting army in the history of warfare was drunk a lot of the time,the russians in ww2,they where each given a ration of vodka a day, and usually they got a lot more as deaths where deliberatly not reported so they could get extra rations, they where often drunk in battle, they thought it made them much better fighters.
 
Well said, Raging Jonathan.

I for one would much rather have seen a Longboat UU for Scandinavia.

While we're at it, let's start calling them "Norse" instead of "Vikings" too... Actually "Vikings" could be a Norse UU. A Viking, after all, was a person who went plundering and/or trading overseas ("going viking"). Everyone would do it. Farmers, craftsmen, everyone would go viking at least once or twice in their lifetime, because of poverty and adventure. Could be a Medieval Infantry replacement that doesn't require iron, or something.
 
The Longboat would be a much more appropriate UU, perhaps as a more sea-worthy replacement to the Galley? And yes Marxist the title of Norse would also be a lot more appropriate.

Tricky, I have heavy German and Swedish/Norway ancestry and I am a definitive candidate for becoming a Berserk. While I won't be training as one until I retire from the U.S. Army, I still feel a very strong affiliation with them and find the misconceptions of them frustrating and at times offensive.
 
Berserkers weren't really diffirent from other barbaric units, I mean they were brave or mad, but so were meny celtic and other germanic warriors before, in a sense...

There is historical dumbness in civ, because of these ''middle ages''. Middle ages were only an ages of backwardness, serious backwardness... that was only felt in europe. So, it is ridiculous to think that a viking berserk could be better that a roman legion. Or that the medieval european siege weapons were better that Roman or Greek ones...

A better UU for the vikings would be the longboat, or if it has to be a land unit it could be called viking jarls (or was it carls?), or viking raiders, instead of berserk, or whatever...
 
There were similar warriors to the Berserks found in Indonesia, Greek maenads, Celts, African Leopard Men, Wolf-warriors of the Middle East, etc... But none ever reached the pinnacle of the Berserks, none became so immersed and had such long and deep tradition. The Berserks were unique from any other warrior this planet has ever seen, but their numbers do not warrant a UU in Civ.
 
Re: Berzerkir (@Raging Jonathan):

The Civilopedia does mention that Berzerkir "had a belief in Lycanthropy", which may be closer to what you are suggesting. Lycanthropy, IIRC, is to closely associate with a bear or a wolf to gain some of their power. Berzerkir were also closely linked to the Odin cult, who was the patron god of warlocks and sages... So, there is certainly an esoteric/magical/mystical connection to berzerk frenzy. If you believe in that sort of thing. :)

Re: Vikings:

Actually, the Viking Age (c. 800-1066) counts as iron age, not as medieval age here in Sweden. The middle ages counts as having arrived with Christianity and ending with the consolidation of Sweden as a kingdom i.e. 1066-1523.

The point of that is that the Viking UU could (should?) be a Swordsman replacement, since that was the technological equivalent. We were backwards up here y'know... :viking:
 
Berserks feel they swallow a victim in combat. Initiation rights is almost entirely through the killing of a fierce animal, some were able to do it with their hands, others needed a knife or a rock, but if they passed and killed the animal (Usually a Bear, sometimes a Wolf, and on one possible occassion an African big cat) they strengthened themselves by swallowing the animal's essence, and wore its' hide, and usually only its' hide (No other clothing, this has practical purpose because gangr causes the body severe overheating).

They believed what they did was allow Odin to possess them and fight through their body, but it has scientific explanation. A Berserk has never been scientifically studied but this is the best explanation I have found.

"Fortunately, while cultures change the human brain remains more or less the same. Recently a team of neurobiologists undertook a study to determine the causes of religious experience in the brain.

(Let me make an aside here and explain something about my point of view that needs to be understood in order to see what I'm getting at. The study was to determine the causes of religious experience in the brain. This is not the same thing as defining what the causes of the religious experience are. Merely to find a biological root for spiritual experience in the brain in no way invalidates the spiritual experience, nor does it prove that the spiritual experience was "really" just a physical, biological phenomenon. Let me give you an example, one used by the team of neurobiologists themselves: suppose you eat an apple pie. When you do, neurons fire in your taste, tactile, and olfactory areas of the brain, dopamines are released that give you a sense of pleasure. Do these things disprove the existence of apple pie? Of course not, they just describe your brain's mechanism for processing the experience of eating one. Same thing I believe with the spiritual experience. I do not believe that science and religion or spirituality are in conflict. They each describe the same things from different points of view.)

Anyway, one of the specific religious experiences the neurobiologists studied was the Mysterious Union, the Catholic mystic practice of possession. While the religion greatly differs, the processes that the brain utilizes must be very similar. I will summarize the relevant findings they published in their book, Why God Won't Go Away.

There is a portion of the brain called the posterior superior parietal lobe, or the orientation association area (OAA, to save much typing). The OAA orients the individual in space and in doing so distinguishes the individual from everything else. (In other words, it also makes the distinction between "me" and "not-me".) The OAA shows heightened activity during different forms of meditation, and during the deepest meditational states it sharply reduces in activity.

The human body contains two divisions of the autonomic nervous system (the bridge of nerves between brain and body). One is the sympathetic nervous system, which arouses the body, gives an adrenaline boost, increases heart rate, blood pressure, breath rate, and muscle tone. It is often activated by danger or mating. The other division is the parasympathetic nervous system, which quiets the body, conserves energy, keeps the body's basic functions in balance, regulates sleep, induces relaxation, distributes nutrients throughout the body, and plays a role in the body's self-healing functions. These two divisions of the autonomic nervous system are usually antagonists, meaning that either one is "on" or the other, but not both, as they generally inhibit each other's activities.

In some extraoridinary states of altered consciousness, when one system or the other is pushed to maximal effort, both will function at the same time. This can be triggered by intense physical or mental activity, such as prolonged concentration.

Elevated action of the sympathetic nervous system is a source of stress, in both the physical and emotional senses. The mind desires to be released from this stress. The longer it endures, the greater the stress becomes. This causes the brain to throw all of its resources into finding a resolution to the situation causing the stress. Both the left-brain deductionism functions and the right-brain holistic approach become used. When they match, get in synch, the pleasure centers in the hypothalamus are stimulated. This triggers the parasympathetic nervous system. For one moment the arousal system and the quiescent system are both active. Ecstasy and awe. This is the eureka moment. Maintaining this is called by the researchers the "unitary state."

This then is how a god, or a spirit, or a myth is experienced by the brain. It is the unification of left and right brain, of logic and emotion, and because it is the ultimate synthesis of the human brain it feels like ultimate truth.

To quote directly from Why God Won't Go Away:

"The ability of human ritual to produce transcendant unitary states is the result… of the effect of rythmic ritualized behavior upon the hypothalamus and the ANS [autonomic nervous system]…."

If the rhythmic behavior is fast, the arousal system is driven ever higher. The hippocampus then puts on the brakes and neural input to various areas, like the OAA is reduced. Unitary states are produced by a softening sense of self and the absorption of it into a larger reality caused by this deafferentation of the OAA.

There are two types of unitary state that result from this process. I will focus here on the active one responsible for the sensation of the Mysterious Union and other forms of possession. This arises with sustained focus upon some thought or object of attention. This keeps the right part of the OAA active. This part of the OAA is responsible for forming a sense of the space around the individual. The left part, the part responsible for the sense of self, in deactivated in the manner described above. The result of this is a sense of the self merging into the object of contemplation. If the ritual that produced the state is religious in nature, then focusing upon a god or spirit will result in merging with or replacement by (if the deactivation of the left OAA is complete) the god or spirit.

And of course to be effective, the ritual attempting to cause the unitary state must merge behaviors with ideas and emotions both. This is why just any idea or behavior will not serve."

Essentially the Berserk has the capacity to either engage in a ritual that causes a specific stress or naturally be in a situation which causes the brain to alter itself in order to find a solution to the stress. This altered state is gangr. In taking the fight or flight decision mode in these situations, the candidate for Berserk or Berserk has a strong automatic inclination to take fight. Their is the capacity to enter into gangr because of abnomral and possibly more primitive response to danger, pain, and physical excitement.
 
Raging Jonathan said:
Amanita Muscaria: It is a hallucinogenic mushroom that is probably the most accepted theory for how the Berserks entered into Berserkgang. It is a cop-out theory, Amanita Muscaria grows during very specific times of year in usually warmer climates and only in the company of only certain trees. It can lead to hightened aggression but it causes intense nausea, vomitting and severe hallucinations. The Berserks entered into gangr year round, in all manner of places, sometimes without their control. Vomitting, nausea, and hallucinations were never reported, and that would also signifigantly decrease their combat effectiveness so much so that they would have been much less feared as warriors.

Amanita Muscaria is in fact very widespread in scandinavia, and it can be found for quite long periods (late summer to late autumn, IIRC) compared to other mushrooms.
 
It isn't widespread enough nor does it achieve the desired effects to have caused gangr. There also is no evidence Berserks ever used Amanita Muscaria for gangr.
 
I honestly think ALL this talk about beserkers and what they were is deleted...
They were into herbs, mushrooms, mental highs or whatever...
History is more often than not written by the enemies of whatever they write about...
And a guy saying he has got close ties with seden and norway and living over there kindda makes me think... what a really cool guy.
I am sorry No offence...
But grow up!!!
Beserkers were the good viking warriors who stayed alive long enough to create a myth about or around themselves and thats it.
how old are you ?!?!??!!?!?

And regards to that MUSHROOM
YES it is VERY normal in Denmark!
I do golf so whenever i do the 18, I pick up atleast 1/4 Kilo of those SHROOMS
And i use em and they are very good.
If the Berserkers( moron title....) used them, I do believe they can ignite whatever you want them to ignite....
deleted

And they can be dried(actually better) and kept for when you go into a fight
But whatever
 
Helmling said:
I'm just annoyed by their role in the game. Most UU's have a 1 point advantage over the units they are replacing. The Beserk gets 2 points AND has an ability that is unique in its era! It's absurd.

I am just playing the Vikings for the first time, so my opinion may change when I'm done. My initial impression is that Beserks certainly have an advantage with a 6 attack, but it is balanced with a cost of 70. Almost twice the costs of a Med Inf or Long Bowman (40). Without the amphibious capability it probably would not be worth building Beserks at all.
 
I think most of the UU's and Civs for that matter are only very slightly based on any historical accuracy. Names and faces are about all that I'd really concider close to historical in this game. This game is barely based on history, so how can you complain that a UU isn't historical? It's a game, and a fanciful if fun one at that.

The only real complaint that has grounds is the fact that the Beserk is pretty powerful, but if its equalized by a high cost as it is, then it's acceptable. How often do people use amphib assult anyways? It's a situational special ability if that.

Besides, if you dont like it, you can change it. One of the great things about Civ :D


Joshua
 
boarder said:
Soldiers sent in battle under fungi-induced allucinations, or drunk? It's pure nonsense. What commander in the world would send into battle an assault team composed of junkies and drunkards?

Actually the biggest fighting army in the history of warfare was drunk a lot of the time,the russians in ww2,they where each given a ration of vodka a day, and usually they got a lot more as deaths where deliberatly not reported so they could get extra rations, they where often drunk in battle, they thought it made them much better fighters.

You are a bit misguided here, while it is true that the Russian soilders were given a ration of vodka a day, much like the ration of Rum for British sailors, the amount was never enough to get the man drunk. Plus, the comanders would not tell the men to drink up because we are fighting today.

The original statement is still valid. No comander, in his right mind, would send drunks into combat.
 
I can become 'beserk' from just one drop of alcohol, so I don't drink much ;) I have 'seen red' while being extremely angry once: I had so much concentrated hate and repressed rage, I then felt 'euphoric', and 'content' while viewing the world through swirling mass of red. (It was like looking through a colored-glass filter.)

I agree, there is definatly something fishy with the Beserkers. And now, I want to them use them as my next civ. :)
 
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