Build order on high level difficulty

[Pietato]

I used to start with scout but now I start with slinger. With the new movement system, starting with a scout feels pretty pointless. Most of the time you just end up following rivers upstream looking for a good second city spot anyway so why not go with slinger that you can upgrade to archer right away?

Because the scout will very quickly get to level 2, and then move much better than a slinger.

 

[Art Morte]

Because the scout will very quickly get to level 2, and then move much better than a slinger.

It's debatable, however, how important it is to reveal lots of the map early on. I rarely build scouts and most of the time I meet three city-states in time for the boost. And a warrior + slinger pair is enough to reveal territory for your next few cities. That's pretty much all I feel like I need to know as far as exploration is considered in the first 50 to 100 turns.

Basically, revealing the map is nice, but has little tangible benefit.

 

[Mojo85]

Scout is always first for me, even on deity however I use the good goody huts mod so there’s a lot more huts, better rewards etc to get that make the risk worth it

 

[Pietato]

It's debatable, however, how important it is to reveal lots of the map early on. I rarely build scouts and most of the time I meet three city-states in time for the boost. And a warrior + slinger pair is enough to reveal territory for your next few cities. That's pretty much all I feel like I need to know as far as exploration is considered in the first 50 to 100 turns.

Basically, revealing the map is nice, but has little tangible benefit.

You are losing out on huts and many city-state quests. Also valuable terrain and enemy information, particularly barb camps.

 

[RealHuhn]

On Immortal, it was always Scout first. On Deity, I've lost too many games because of it. A delayed slinger can mean that you miss a ton of eurekas like Archery, Bronze Working, Military Tradition etc. and without the early Archery eureka, you cannot defend against a <T20 warrior rush without losing the game or crippling your expansion, unless you have a very defensible position where your units don't get flanked easily. Even barbs can rush you after T10.
I feel like an early scout is also necessary, mostly for Foreign Trade and Political Philosophy. If you wait too long, those CSs might get conquered before you can find them.

In general, if I have a luxury to sell: Slinger, Builder, Scout, buy Settler, Settler or Slinger, Scout, Builder, buy Settler, Settler
If no luxury and high production: Slinger, Scout, Settler, Settler
If no luxury and low production: Should have probably moved the Settler and find a better location. Probably Slinger, Builder.

 

[acluewithout]

I usually play Emperor. Scout first unless either very high production or low production initial tiles (in which case builder first to capitalise on high production tiles or boost low production city).

After that, at least one or two settlers, one builder, at least one more melee. Go from there. Not sure where is best to spend my early gold. I used to buy a builder, but now I usually build it. Another settler or a monument seem like the best options.

I try to avoid early slingers / archers. I’ll go for the archery boost early if I have horses and a horseman rush is viable. Archers are great defensively early game but I’m not sure they are really that strong on offence - I’m still experimenting, but certainly just a couple of melee plus my scout seem to work better. I feel always building early archers can become a crutch. You have to build them eventually though for the eurekas.

Is scout the most efficient opening? Don’t know, really. But it’s certainly the most fun. I think exploring the map has advantages, but in any event the game is more fun if you do. And after a few settlers and a builder, and one more warrior, my levelled up scout and two warriors are pretty formidable until I build some reinforcements. And diplomacy is a good defence too, as is initiating DoWs if you have the terrain. Later on I explore with religious units, maybe a great person (although that feels like cheating), maybe a caravel.

If you want let’s plays, theGameMechanic on twitch is great. He plays fairly well. Very early game is strong - good city placement and prioritisation, and effective use of chops. After that, he builds way too many districts, way too many IZ (as in ‘more than one, and like maybe you shouldn’t build any’), avoids coastal cities too much, and he’s not very efficient getting religion. But good chat, and some insightful comments. Note his Twitch is much better than his youtube.

[edit: poor expression in my first para.]

 

[Esperr]

Because the scout will very quickly get to level 2, and then move much better than a slinger.

And....? Your getting like one hut early game anyway, and your def not going to meet most city states first so whats the point when you can have an archer that actually does something.

 

[Pietato]

And....? Your getting like one hut early game anyway, and your def not going to meet most city states first so whats the point when you can have an archer that actually does something.

You must be really bad at scouting.

 

[Esperr]

You must be really bad at scouting.

Or the A.I starts with 5 warriors and 3 settlers.

 

[acluewithout]

The AI in my games almost never claims goody huts.

CSs are more of a mixed bag. But finding CSs earlier, even if they don’t have a free envoy to give, can still be handy because you can see all their quests. Often early quests are things you want to do anyway, or aren’t much work to do, and they can sometimes overlap so one quest nets you envoys in multiple cities.

All the CSs getting killed by the AI, however, has probably reduced the value of scouts somewhat.

 

[Archon_Wing]

And....? Your getting like one hut early game anyway, and your def not going to meet most city states first so whats the point when you can have an archer that actually does something.

Plus even if you meet a CS first, it'll probably be dead soon anyways.

 

[MarigoldRan]

I've modded myself an extra scout so I don't have to worry about this.

You may as well at Diety. Also modded everyone an extra settler and builder.

To balance it out, gave the AI more bonuses later in the game (Adjusted Difficulty Mod).

The AI gets too much bonuses early, not enough later.

 

[seankhan]

Another thing is how many cities to settle (I normally go for 4) before going conquering?

you need 6 cities to beat deity,(4 science districts)with 6 archers min to protect your front town walled and siege protected using a governor,because they will come for you.sometmes it will be 2v1,other times it will be 4v1.survive the attack waves and the game is yours with 4 science districts.gl

 

[ZeroSuitSenpai]

I play Emperor. I usually open:
1. Scout
2. Settler if I have the food, otherwise Warrior
3. Settler if it wasn't second, otherwise Monument/Builder (depends on barbs)
4. Slingers & Monument/Builder. I usually purchase my first monument or builder, and hard-build the other one.

On certain occasions, like if I'm playing as Poland and want to rush Mysticism, I will build a monument second. I've actually been liking early monuments a lot more lately.

 

[kb27787]

It's debatable, however, how important it is to reveal lots of the map early on. I rarely build scouts and most of the time I meet three city-states in time for the boost. And a warrior + slinger pair is enough to reveal territory for your next few cities. That's pretty much all I feel like I need to know as far as exploration is considered in the first 50 to 100 turns.

Basically, revealing the map is nice, but has little tangible benefit.

Agreed. Unless you have a ridiculously culture-heavy output, the timing for political philosophy comes so late (relatively speaking) that you have already stabilized (and either befriended or defended against the AI attack); supposedly it is even ok to start exploring much later, but with a horse or something. I suppose getting a scout out earlier might give you a slightly better chance of meeting 3 CS before the AI eats them up, but to me, I am not particularly worried about that eureka; because if the AI DoWs me, usually I meet their CS vassals automatically anyway (I'm pretty sure most people have that experience), even if they are far, far away (happens quite often).
Rather than worry about the CS, I'd worry about the DoW

 

[Archon_Wing]

I usually play Emperor. Scout first unless either very high production or low production initial tiles (in which case builder first to capitalise on high production tiles or boost low production city).

After that, at least one or two settlers, one builder, at least one more melee. Go from there. Not sure where is best to spend my early gold. I used to buy a builder, but now I usually build it. Another settler or a monument seem like the best options.

I try to avoid early slingers / archers. I’ll go for the archery boost early if I have horses and a horseman rush is viable. Archers are great defensively early game but I’m not sure they are really that strong on offence - I’m still experimenting, but certainly just a couple of melee plus my scout seem to work better. I feel always building early archers can become a crutch. You have to build them eventually though for the eurekas.

Is scout the most efficient opening? Don’t know, really. But it’s certainly the most fun. I think exploring the map has advantages, but in any event the game is more fun if you do. And after a few settlers and a builder, and one more warrior, my levelled up scout and two warriors are pretty formidable until I build some reinforcements. And diplomacy is a good defence too, as is initiating DoWs if you have the terrain. Later on I explore with religious units, maybe a great person (although that feels like cheating), maybe a caravel.

If you want let’s plays, theGameMechanic on twitch is great. He plays fairly well. Very early game is strong - good city placement and prioritisation, and effective use of chops. After that, he builds way too many districts, way too many IZ (as in ‘more than one, and like maybe you shouldn’t build any’), avoids coastal cities too much, and he’s not very efficient getting religion. But good chat, and some insightful comments. Note his Twitch is much better than his youtube.

[edit: poor expression in my first para.]

OP wanted to discuss diff 7 and higher, but I guess I can chime in on 6.

As for the slingers, I actually agree to omit if you're going that route. They're actually really bad units besides use from a city center or a potshot across a river but their main purpose is to be upgraded into archers. So if you're not archer rushing (I play Fractal/Shuffle mostly, so you are not guaranteed a rush target). On rough terrain they will get flattened by horse barbs. Warriors are better.

I would never buy the first builder; gold is pretty valuable at this point. Usually I go builder ---> slinger (skip if on a pennisula or no barb scouts) ---> settler ---> and the next depends on the situation. If it's really safe, I'll build a scout, but usually I'll build a warrior. Obviously if barbs are bad, I stop and build units. If it's cramped, then forget the settler and build some archers. Build whatever army is necessary---> monument --> campus x 2 (boost State Workforce and Recorded History). I have no idea when to build a government plaza.

I think the agoge boost and early economic boost is well worth it over anything else really. Even if I get pillaged, repairing doesn't cost any charges. The only risk is if I fail to get the boost.

I don't care about early diplomacy. It's often a crapshoot and you can always make friends later. The people closest to you are generally conquest targets anyways. They're easier to kill if they're suicide their units at your doorstep anyways, and you can either counterattack or make them pay you ridiculous amounts of gold. Maybe Gilgamesh is an exception due to lolcarts plus he even declares friendship @ unfriendly./