Bushido in G&K

[Loucypher]

'Ello, longtime lurker first time poster here...
I've been thinking a bit upon reading the changes to be in G&K, most notably the fact that combat pace is slowed and unit health is 100 instead of 10. Now I am wondering how this will mash with Japan's Bushido.
Wouldn't this mean that Bushido becomes THAT much stronger? Bushido already makes Japan's armies annoying to face but when it works like that, things become a lot scarier. Or will it be nerfed? What do you think?

 

[Bakspatel]

Japan hasn't been confirmed yet to be unchanged, but you never know. If it would make them overpowered than they'll likely be adjusted.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Welcome to posting at CivFanatics !

I think they'll keep it the same, though if they do alter it, they might make it expire when gunpowder is discovered. Or when they meet the Portuguese - oh, hang on, they're not in the game .

 

[compwiz1202]

'Ello, longtime lurker first time poster here...
I've been thinking a bit upon reading the changes to be in G&K, most notably the fact that combat pace is slowed and unit health is 100 instead of 10. Now I am wondering how this will mash with Japan's Bushido.
Wouldn't this mean that Bushido becomes THAT much stronger? Bushido already makes Japan's armies annoying to face but when it works like that, things become a lot scarier. Or will it be nerfed? What do you think?

Units should be doing ten times more damage too. It's just it will balance things when a unit is doing less than a point of damage rounding up to 1 out of 10 now, it will convert to somewhere between 1 and 9 out of 100 in G&K, so you will need a lot more starter units to kill more modern units.

 

[Lyoncet]

I imagine it will still be entirely balanced with the expansion. Going on the assumption that the way damaged units perform hasn't changed (but with every 10 hp reducing strength by 5% instead of every 1 hp), it probably won't make much difference either way. It could be that since it will take more combat sessions to kill a unit, they'll get more chances to use it, but they'll also be doing less with it each time.

Also, the expansion may seem like more of a buff to Bushido than it really is. If the way it worked was "All units are treated as if they had full HP," G&K would probably completely break the ability. But what it really means is that damaged units don't receive the 5% penalty to combat strength per 1 (or 10 in G&K, presumably) HP lost. A damaged unit will still die almost as easily though. Which in most cases just boils down to making the units you lose deal a little extra damage on the way out. Which is a lot more balanced than the way a lot of people seem to think in vanilla, and assuming the strength lost from lost HP scales up with total unit HP in G&K, shouldn't need rebalancing.

Granted, though, I've seen nothing that indicates those two things will scale in tandem. It just seems likely they would.

 

[bcaiko]

I love Lyoncet's post.

And he's entirely correct. Bushido sounds overpowered, but the math works out fine. A slightly damaged Japanese unit isn't really any better than another Civ's slightly damaged unit. Japanese units will really just deal more damage on their way out. That's not overpowered, especially since the Zero has been consistently rated as one of the worst UUs in the game.

Said it before, and I'll say it again: Bushido won't be changed.

 

[Callonia]

Bushido is fine until the moment where red lined japanese unit knocks one of your green health units out of commission right all the way to the graveyard. Even then, its fine xD I've done the same to npc so its fair they do the same to me. Personally I hope it won't be nerfed.

 

[smallfish]

Bushido is fine until the moment where red lined japanese unit knocks one of your green health units out of commission right all the way to the graveyard. Even then, its fine xD I've done the same to npc so its fair they do the same to me. Personally I hope it won't be nerfed.

Wait until a red low health Samurai mercilessly crushes your Riflemen.

Best part is that its done by the AI.

 

[Lyoncet]

I love Lyoncet's post.

Comes from a sordid history of explaining how Bushido works far, far too many times.

Of course there are corner cases where a redlined Samurai takes out your Rifleman, but, well, welcome to Civ.

 

[Callonia]

Wait until a red low health Samurai mercilessly crushes your Riflemen.

Best part is that its done by the AI.

Well yeah, I have seen it happen few times. I still don't care, its aggravating but hey. happens.

And I face off samurais with my longswordmen quite frequently too.

 

[SalemSage]

I think this expansion will be a nice indirect buff for Japan. Their UA is useful, sure, but the effects of it are most obvious when your units are about to die - which is the point where you should be considering getting them behind your front lines to heal up desperately.

Now that combat's been slowed down, Japan shouldn't have to worry about that so much now.

 

[headcase]

Maybe it will be totally changed and tie into a new mechanic, like soldiers generate faith based on damage they take, double that amount if they initiate an attack while wounded. (Or just straight-up Monty with faith instead of culture, although either idea might be too samey).

 

[Deggial]

Maybe it is not Japan and it's Bushido, that benefits most by G&K.

What about Catherina and her Cossacks? They gain a combat bonus against damaged units by default - and there will be more damaged units in G&K due to prolonged fights (less 1-hit-pushovers) and limited instant heal (50% only). Additionally, "damaged" in vanilly CiV meant an HP loss of at least 10% of their maximum HP. With G&K a "scratch" of 1% HP reduction might qualify an unit as "damaged"!

 

[bcaiko]

Bushido is fine until the moment where red lined japanese unit knocks one of your green health units out of commission right all the way to the graveyard.

That can't happen anymore because units can't be one-shotted as easily under the new combat system. The most a cornered Samurai will be able to do is the same damage another Civ's full strength Longswordsman would be able to inflict against your Rifleman.

Damaged Japanese units don't suddenly get DragonBallZ superpowers, they merely remain as strong as they are at full strength (which isn't all that much stronger, anyway).

Comes from a sordid history of explaining how Bushido works far, far too many times.

You and me, both.

 

[Callonia]

That can't happen anymore because units can't be one-shotted as easily under the new combat system. The most a cornered Samurai will be able to do is the same damage another Civ's full strength Longswordsman would be able to inflict against your Rifleman.

Damaged Japanese units don't suddenly get DragonBallZ superpowers, they merely remain as strong as they are at full strength (which isn't all that much stronger, anyway).



You and me, both.

Well yeah, the last time it happened to me was like over a year ago or more. I just still remember the death, not when it happened. It makes me be more careful with japanese troops when i'm facing them. That's a good thing anyways.

 

[Montov]

Combat is a little longer, but it is not a complete overhaul in that regard. So I don't expect it to be a big difference for Bushido.

 

[MadDjinn]

melee naval ships might be very dangerous with Bushido though. Instead of the constantly reduced damage output, they'll be able to keep hitting hard.

 

[bcaiko]

melee naval ships might be very dangerous with Bushido though. Instead of the constantly reduced damage output, they'll be able to keep hitting hard.

You mean against coastal cities? That's certainly true of any seige against cities right now; Bushido can helpfully reduce the amount of units needed to take a city.

Have we found out how much HP a city will have under the new combat system, btw?

 

[Lyoncet]

As far as I've seen, all we know is that defensive structures now give cities extra HP (I think walls are +50?) Presumably base city HP has been scaled up accordingly with the change from the 10 HP system to 100 HP.

 

[MadDjinn]

You mean against coastal cities? That's certainly true of any seige against cities right now; Bushido can helpfully reduce the amount of units needed to take a city.

Have we found out how much HP a city will have under the new combat system, btw?

I was also thinking of ship on ship combat, given that you need Supply to heal at sea. So any damage done will reduce the units effectiveness (other civs) until they can run back and heal. Japan won't have to worry about it as much (though they'll still be easy countered by ranged units).