Buzzdowan's LP Series - China - "Siamese Twins"

[buzzdowan]

Hi,

This LP, Siamese Twins, is a slightly modified version of a standard domination game with Wu Zetian on Pangea map. We are using a set of rules for a human player, while AIs play a regular game.

The special rules for Siamese Twins are:
- The game is played on pangea map.
- A player must settle the first city (CAPITAL) exactly four tiles apart from another arbitrary capital city (CAPITAL TWIN).
- if CAPITAL TWIN gets captured (by player or AI), a player immediately looses the game, unless CAPITAL TWIN is the last capital city to capture on the way to domination victory.
- A player must achieve domination victory

You can watch the first video here.

Comments are appreciated!

Enjoy!

 

[Buccaneer]

I guess missed the discussions that led to this. What is the strategic purpose of a capital twin? Are you vowed to protect that AI's capital as well as your own? So you have to declare war on any that attacks (or approaching) that capital? Also, what size pangaea? I've had standard pangaea maps where the nearest capital was 30 hexes away.

 

[RedRover57]

Do you have a save game around turn 10 that you could post? I would like to try a different strategy using the same map, but would also want to settle my capital on the same turn and same tile as in your game.

A low production and gold start, sandwiched in between Persia and the Incas definitely will make for an interesting game.

 

[buzzdowan]

I guess missed the discussions that led to this. What is the strategic purpose of a capital twin? Are you vowed to protect that AI's capital as well as your own? So you have to declare war on any that attacks (or approaching) that capital? Also, what size pangaea? I've had standard pangaea maps where the nearest capital was 30 hexes away.

Capital twin has two sides. That is why this game is so challenging. On one hand it is the closest capital and thus the most dangerous to destroy you. On the other hand if capital twin falls, you fall as well. It is up to a human player how to secure the conditions for win.

- A player can diminish twin civilization to twin capital only and then defend it from the others

or

- let your twin grow and then defend from them.

My personal advice would be to go for the first option. How a player defends the twin capital is up to him/her. You can declare war to other civilizations, pay for peace treaties, just walk units between units when in war so that they are not so effective ... that is where is gets creative.

The rules do not say anything about your capital, but I would advice you to protect it

Any Pangea size is good. Why pangea? If you choose continents then you might end up alone on a continent and you could not satisfy the first rule of this game (Settle 4 tiles apart from another capital)

 

[buzzdowan]

Do you have a save game around turn 10 that you could post? I would like to try a different strategy using the same map, but would also want to settle my capital on the same turn and same tile as in your game.

A low production and gold start, sandwiched in between Persia and the Incas definitely will make for an interesting game.

The initial save (turn 0) is attached. Have fun!

 

[RedRover57]

Ok great. I will need to try to recreate your opening moves until settling the capital.

 

[buzzdowan]

Part 2 is up.

Enjoy!

 

[barefooter]

Tried yesterday,emperor as chinese, quite difficult, twin (america) of course DOW'ed me multiple times but managed to trim them down, but then japanese and france DOW'ed me and I ended up loosing my capitol to Japan.
Fun though, will try again

 

[RedRover57]

I used your starting save game and tried a different strategy. I don't think it will necessarily be better then your strategy (yours looks good), just different.

Spoiler :

Instead of Honor I went for the full Liberty tree. My rationale was that since the start was production poor I didn't want to "waste" hammers producing a worker and settler. My goal was to use the free GS from the Liberty finisher to bulb Machinery; however, my culture was too low so I ended up hard teching to Machinery (turn 117 - later than I would have liked) after initially teching the top of the tree to Calendar and Philosophy. I used the free GP (GE) from the Liberty finisher to rush Notre Dame instead (my only wonder so far). I settled 2 additional cities toward the original start site, but built the NC prior to settling the third city.

By this time the Incans had spammed cities up in the direction toward the original start site. I had built 6 archers (plus a couple of warriors) and I saved all of my gold so that I could upgrade the archers to CKN right after teching Machinery (170 gold a pop - ouch!). I then decided to go after the Incans first since they were one of the top score leaders. I wasn't worried about Persia since they didn't seem to be in a warmongering mode - I will deal with them later. One of the Incan cities had 10 iron (!) and it was fairly easy to take their capital after that since their troops had the resource penalty. I took the capital by turn 160 and will probably take one more of their cities (up the river toward Persia, with 2 spices) before negotiating peace.

I will likely go after Napoleon next since he is score, tech and military leader and I don't want him to get out of control. The rest of them shouldn't be much of a problem after that. Strangely enough I still haven't met 2 civs. I don't even know where they are - I think they must be on the other side of France.

This is a very unusual game for me since I haven't signed any RA's or allied any CS, and have only built the one wonder (ND). Inca's capital had the Statue of Zeus, the Mausoleum and the Pyramids though.

By the way I am giving the CKN 2 terrain promotions, then March and Siege. That way they will have March , Siege and Blitz when they are upgraded to rifles. After Liberty I started up the Honor tree.

 

[buzzdowan]

Part 3 is up.

Enjoy!

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

Really entertaining Buzzdowan!

Land acquisition has been excellent except...

How can you leave that city site with multiple riverside gems/horses/marble/cattle/hills and just about all of it on a river!

I know happiness is an issue and the spot does't seem to be vulnerable at the moment. It's just much too strong of a spot not to get running, great production and huge gold.

 

[RedRover57]

How can you leave that city site with multiple riverside gems/horses/marble/cattle/hills and just about all of it on a river!

I know happiness is an issue and the spot doesn't seem to be vulnerable at the moment. It's just much too strong of a spot not to get running, great production and huge gold.

Spoiler :

It's interesting to see how differently the AI can behave on the same map. In my game the Incans spammed cities up to that site such that their northernmost city grabbed the marble and horses. I had to settle my third city north of that to capture the 2 gems, and I eventually conquered and burned down that Incan city which let my city grab those other resources in its third ring. In Buzzdowan's game the Incans have not settled cities in that direction yet.

Also, in my game the Ottomans have been friendly with me the whole game.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

Even with the happiness, he should see another GG soon as war looks likely again which means a bother quick GA which should tide over. I had to laugh at myself when he mulls over starting a settler for that spot and I'm like FINALLY! and he throws up another spearman. heh

 

[buzzdowan]

Really entertaining Buzzdowan!

Land acquisition has been excellent except...

How can you leave that city site with multiple riverside gems/horses/marble/cattle/hills and just about all of it on a river!

I know happiness is an issue and the spot does't seem to be vulnerable at the moment. It's just much too strong of a spot not to get running, great production and huge gold.

I can not say for sure, but my feeling is that if I would build a settler I would not be able to take two Persian cities. My rationale is "better two than one" and I can still take that spot.

 

[buzzdowan]

I used your starting save game and tried a different strategy. I don't think it will necessarily be better then your strategy (yours looks good), just different.

Hi RedRover57,

Great! Let us know how your game ended. I fear this can be my first LP defeat

 

[buzzdowan]

Even with the happiness, he should see another GG soon as war looks likely again which means a bother quick GA which should tide over. I had to laugh at myself when he mulls over starting a settler for that spot and I'm like FINALLY! and he throws up another spearman. heh

Really?! I was that bad ?!?!

 

[RedRover57]

Spoiler :

I took Paris on turn 206. He was first in military when I started the war, so I had a lot of units to kill. Of course he was dumb and eventually suicided all of them into my wall of heavily promoted and well defended CKN. I boded my time killing his units until I had rifles and cannons, then I wiped him off the map except for one isolated city. The rifles that were upgraded from promoted CKN are pretty beastly (march, blitz, siege, cover).

I am well ahead now in score and first in territory and military. I picked up Stonehenge, Hanging Gardens and Oracle from France. I still haven't done any RA's (and won't bother), but I have allied 2 maritime (Quebec City being one) and 1 cultural CS.

Persia is 3rd or 4th in score as they have settled a bunch of cites, but their units are archaic compared with mine so it will be easy to whittle them into a more manageable size. Ottomans are 2nd in score, but largely because I sold them 3 of France's junk cities that I got in a peace deal (he gave me almost 4000 gold for the 3). That should be plenty of cash to upgrade all of my cannons to artillery in 10 turns (I will use 2 GS to bulb up to Dynamite and I will pick up Professional Army just in time for the upgrades). I will take care of Ottomans after I break Persia, then sweep the rest of the map saving the last remnants of the once mighty Persian empire (my twin city) for last.

As it turns out the whole twin city concept won't have any effect on my game other than the late start and having to save Persia for last. Persia was never a threat to me and no one else was ever a threat to Persia. Taking the 2 superpowers (Incas and France) out first was the key.

 

[RedRover57]

I fear this can be my first LP defeat

You can pull this off! My suggestions:

- Beeline to Machinery. Make sure you have about 6-8 archers when you get there and enough cash to upgrade them to CKN (Professional Army will really help if you can get to that policy). After Machinery then beeline to Education to get some universities up for some GS production - these will help later to bulb up to rifling and artillery. After Education then head straight to Dynamite.
- It would also help to build barracks and armory in 2 of your best production cities as double promoted ranged units are very nice to start. Later you will want to add siege units to your army after your CKN get promoted to rifles, and you can start building these as soon as you get some iron, and upgrade them later to cannons.
- Forget about pikemen!! They are worthless!! I didn't build a single one. Use a horseman to cap cities that you have broken with CKN. Later when you capture cities with iron you can use of few longswords to block for your CKN.

Good luck!

 

[buzzdowan]

Part 4 is up.

Enjoy!

 

[buzzdowan]

Part 5 is up.

Enjoy!

PS. I apologize for sleepy commentary, it was 2 am when I recorded this
PS2. Also noticed some errors in my commentary: Orleans -> New Orleans and Siamese Twins -> Twin Cities.
PS3. Never make LPs tired early in the morning