Can someone explain to me why a Great Scientist would require 1,840 GP?

xphantomx

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 20, 2013
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I’m sure this is some game mechanism I just never encountered before, so if someone could walk me through it I’d appreciate it!

Im in the Classical age as Babylon in a marathon game.

The next Great Merchant requires 180 GP. The next Great writer requires 180 GP. The next Great Engineer requires 360 GP. These all seem perfectly fine to me.

Why would the next Great Scientist ask for 1,840 GP?

As Babylon, having completed the Great Library many turns ago, i was hoping to get the Great Scientist ball rolling...but all Civs, including me, have only accumulated 570 GP or less so far with only ~4-9 points a turn being accumulated.

I’m accumating the most with 9 per turn, every other Civ is lower, I’ve never gotten a Great Scientist yet...

What’s happening here? How do I fix this?
 
You are probably being sniped by another player, who buys the last GPP needed with faith. If an AI buys alot of great persons with faith the cost will sky rocket.
 
Are you sure it's directly linked?

I'm under the impression that GPs from a more advanced era than the world is currently in have a % penalty to its cost.

This is the more accurate answer. I observed this behavior numberous times, was hoping the new GP would fix the issue.

Since there's on average only 3 great people per era, if the last great person of era is recruited and the eras hasn't advanced (so the game is in Classical Era, and al Classical scientists are recruited), then the cost of the Medieval Era great person will be inflated. This seems to scale by a large amount with every era.

Additionally, if 3 or more civilizations are close to recruiting the Medieval era Great Person, and the game has advanced to Medieval Era, then the costs adjusts accordingly, which causes all of the Great People to be recruited in a single turn, since when the cost adjusts, the number of points earned doens't scale and causes the other civilizations to over flow.
 
This is the more accurate answer. I observed this behavior numberous times, was hoping the new GP would fix the issue.

Since there's on average only 3 great people per era, if the last great person of era is recruited and the eras hasn't advanced (so the game is in Classical Era, and al Classical scientists are recruited), then the cost of the Medieval Era great person will be inflated. This seems to scale by a large amount with every era.

Additionally, if 3 or more civilizations are close to recruiting the Medieval era Great Person, and the game has advanced to Medieval Era, then the costs adjusts accordingly, which causes all of the Great People to be recruited in a single turn, since when the cost adjusts, the number of points earned doens't scale and causes the other civilizations to over flow.
But if he never earned a single GP that must mean someone stole them before he earned them, I guess?
 
This is the more accurate answer. I observed this behavior numberous times, was hoping the new GP would fix the issue.

Since there's on average only 3 great people per era, if the last great person of era is recruited and the eras hasn't advanced (so the game is in Classical Era, and al Classical scientists are recruited), then the cost of the Medieval Era great person will be inflated. This seems to scale by a large amount with every era.

Additionally, if 3 or more civilizations are close to recruiting the Medieval era Great Person, and the game has advanced to Medieval Era, then the costs adjusts accordingly, which causes all of the Great People to be recruited in a single turn, since when the cost adjusts, the number of points earned doens't scale and causes the other civilizations to over flow.

Hm.

So here is a screenshot:

Screenshot (1).png


As ive said i have never recruited a GS

So, if im understanding you 3 civs below me earning (4-8 GS pts per turn) accumulated enough to get the first 4 Scientists before i could even start accumulating enough GS points with my lousy 3 cities (playing immortal marathon)

I loaded an earlier save to the point where all 4 classical era scientists were claimed. Then the GS pts needed went from 180 to 465. Ok, seems reasonable.

So then 3 civs were able to accumulate enough to get the next 3 Medieval scientists before i could. Ok, i can wrap my head around that too. All the civs get a huge city rush advantage and they are all focusing on campuses i suppose?

As soon as the Renaissance GS appears, the required point total goes from 465 to 1840? Doesnt that seem excessive or is that how its supposed to be? I played a bit more and the game just told me i went from Classical age to Medieval age and this number didnt change. Still 1840 pts. If i am now (finally) leading all civs in GS pts per turn (9 pts)...that means it would take about 180 turns before anyone claims that next scientist. So...forget that.

What you are saying, as soon as the Renaissance age comes around in 100 or so turns...that 1840 number will drop down precipitously? And the top 4 GS earning civs will rush claim the next 4 scientists in a row? And then the required pts will sky rocket again cause they turn into Industrial GS' and we all have to wait till the Industrial age to claim the next 3 GS all at once as soon as it hits?
 
I never noticed such aggressive inflation before.

So, if im understanding you 3 civs below me earning (4-8 GS pts per turn) accumulated enough to get the first 4 Scientists before i could even start accumulating enough GS points with my lousy 3 cities (playing immortal marathon)

That's very unlikely. What's more likely is that either gold or faith were spent to gain the GP through patronage. Could you take a screenshot of "previously recruited", or just tell us which Civs recruited the Great Scientists?

Edit: Marathon definitely helps explain why the number is so high, though. In Quick Speed Boudica would cost 40. I think it's 60 in Standard. Marathon makes it 180!

There's a base inflation for GPs in subsequent eras. In the Marathon game that you're playing, that seems to be 360 for GPs in medieval era, and 720 for GPs in the Renaissance era.

So if I'm reading this correctly, that would mean that Ibn Khaldun is 300% of the original cost.
 
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I never noticed such aggressive inflation before.



That's very unlikely. What's more likely is that either gold or faith were spent to gain the GP through patronage. Could you take a screenshot of "previously recruited", or just tell us which Civs recruited the Great Scientists?

Edit: Marathon definitely helps explain why the number is so high, though. In Quick Speed Boudica would cost 40. I think it's 60 in Standard. Marathon makes it 180!

There's a base inflation for GPs in subsequent eras. In the Marathon game that you're playing, that seems to be 360 for GPs in medieval era, and 720 for GPs in the Renaissance era.

So if I'm reading this correctly, that would mean that Ibn Khaldun is 300% of the original cost.

It went from 180 for Classical GS's to 465 for Medieval GS's to now 1840 for Renaissance GS's

Here is what Medieval Scientist points looked like:





Screenshot (19).png






going from 180 to 360 to 720 makes sense to me. I dont get going from 180 (what it was for Classical Scientist in my ancient era save) to 465 to 1840 for GS in my game. There has to be something else going on to alter these numbers so much for Scientist?

And good point about civs using their huge cache of gold to just buy the scientists? that makes sense too. Here is the "previously recruited" you asked for:




Screenshot (18).png

Screenshot (17).png


I guess maybe i got a group of civs that rush GS instead of rushing Prophets?
 
What you are saying, as soon as the Renaissance age comes around in 100 or so turns...that 1840 number will drop down precipitously?

It's not going ot be automatic as soon as Renaissance hits. it's when THAT specific person gets recruited. Then the number will reset back to 720.

So if anyone has more than 720 acumulated (and it looks like Canada and Phoenicia are close) then the cost will drop, but their points won't. So if you recruit the Scientists for 1840 GS points, then if Canada is behind with 1720, and Phoenicia with 1650. Then suddenly the cost drops, but their points don't, so Canada has 1720/720, and Phoenicia has 1650/720. This is enough for them to recruit, they recruit the other TWO remaining Renaissance Era Scientist, all of a sudden, they're all gone, It's not even Industrial Era, and the price goes up again to a ridicolousa amount and the pattern repeats.

Is it excessive? Absolutely. I think it's to prevent late-game Scientists from being recruited too early but I don't think they evaluated that. What should happen is that the cost scales the points earned. So 1720/1840 becomes suddenly 669/720. So the other Scientists still have to be earned the hard way.

I don't know why the spike is so high though, I couldn't find any reference to it in the database itself so I either missed it or it's hardcoded into the game DLL.

But if he never earned a single GP that must mean someone stole them before he earned them, I guess?

I don't think that using Faith/Gold adjusts cost, you just exchange the remainder points for Gold/Faith. Usually when the spike appears, it's because the Person si from a different era than the game itself.
 
It went from 180 for Classical GS's to 465 for Medieval GS's to now 1840 for Renaissance GS's

465 is just 30% above 360, so that makes sense as a penalty for recruiting a GP too early. But I can't think of a legitimate reason for it to jump to 1840.

It's likely what MarshmallowBear is suggesting, but I wonder if the extra GP that we got with the Babylon Pack is somehow causing the underlying math to go bonkers.

It's not going ot be automatic as soon as Renaissance hits. it's when THAT specific person gets recruited. Then the number will reset back to 720.

So if anyone has more than 720 acumulated (and it looks like Canada and Phoenicia are close) then the cost will drop, but their points won't. So if you recruit the Scientists for 1840 GS points, then if Canada is behind with 1720, and Phoenicia with 1650. Then suddenly the cost drops, but their points don't, so Canada has 1720/720, and Phoenicia has 1650/720. This is enough for them to recruit, they recruit the other TWO remaining Renaissance Era Scientist, all of a sudden, they're all gone, It's not even Industrial Era, and the price goes up again to a ridicolousa amount and the pattern repeats.

That's interesting, I've never seen this before myself. I would appreciate if you could post a screenshot here once that happens, @xphantomx.

I guess maybe i got a group of civs that rush GS instead of rushing Prophets?

They've been updating the AI with the NFP patches and this has become common behaviour, which is good since it makes the AI more competitive.
 
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It's likely what MarshmallowBear is suggesting, but I wonder if the extra GP that we got with the Babylon Pack is somehow causing the underlying math to go bonkers..

This was an issue since before the new GPs, the cost has always been oddly inflated under this scenario.
 
It's not going ot be automatic as soon as Renaissance hits. it's when THAT specific person gets recruited. Then the number will reset back to 720.

So if anyone has more than 720 acumulated (and it looks like Canada and Phoenicia are close) then the cost will drop, but their points won't. So if you recruit the Scientists for 1840 GS points, then if Canada is behind with 1720, and Phoenicia with 1650. Then suddenly the cost drops, but their points don't, so Canada has 1720/720, and Phoenicia has 1650/720. This is enough for them to recruit, they recruit the other TWO remaining Renaissance Era Scientist, all of a sudden, they're all gone, It's not even Industrial Era, and the price goes up again to a ridicolousa amount and the pattern repeats.

Is it excessive? Absolutely. I think it's to prevent late-game Scientists from being recruited too early but I don't think they evaluated that. What should happen is that the cost scales the points earned. So 1720/1840 becomes suddenly 669/720. So the other Scientists still have to be earned the hard way.

I don't know why the spike is so high though, I couldn't find any reference to it in the database itself so I either missed it or it's hardcoded into the game DLL.

Thanks for the reply! What you are saying makes sense.

But it will be relatively "automatic", wont it? The required points go down to 720 for the 4 Renaissance GS when Renaissance hits...and the top four civs will claim them in a row, right? Cause they will all have over 720 pts by that time.

And then we all wait another 100 turns or so till Industrial GS points drop down from their ungodly number.

I agree with the concept, my problem was just it going from 465 needed for Medieval GS when we were in Ancient/Classical...but 1840 was needed for Renaissance when we were in Classical/Medieval. I thought maybe it was a unique issue arising because of the Babylon/Marathon combo borking something. Whenever i played epic (my normal choice) i have never noticed this kind of descrepency.

Also, i guess i dont understand how the game determines era: the game tells me ive entered the "Classical age" and then it says ive reached the "Medieval Age"...but the savegame description when i load the game from the menu has said the game has been in the "Reniassance era" since like turn 90. Even before the game told me personally it was entering the "Classical Age"

Is the "game age" based on the most advanced tech discovered? Does this have any affect on gameplay numbers or is it just cosmetic? Does it really matter at all that the dramatic era counter tells me im in the "Classical Age" (even though as Babylon i have already discovered a Renaissance tech through Eurekas) or does it really matter that the game sees itself as in the "Renaissance Age" as a whole but tells me im in the "Classical Age"? lol sorry its probably a simple answer but this has always confused me if this affected anything...



465 is just 30% above 360, so that makes sense as a penalty for recruiting a GP too early. But I can't think of a legitimate reason for it to jump to 1840.

It's likely what MarshmallowBear is suggesting, but I wonder if the extra GP that we got with the Babylon Pack is somehow causing the underlying math to go bonkers.



That's interesting, I've never seen this before myself. I would appreciate if you could post a screenshot here once that happens, @xphantomx.

Will do!



They've been updating the AI with the NFP patches and this has become common behaviour, which is good since it makes the AI more competitive.

I agree. I guess just the combo of Babylon/Shuffle techs/Marathon made the early GS aggroing by multiple Civs really stick out to me when it usually doesnt. *shrugs*
 
That's interesting, I've never seen this before myself. I would appreciate if you could post a screenshot here once that happens, @xphantomx.

Ok, now im more confused than ever. :(

I clicked next turn and all 4 Renaissance Great Scientists were claimed at once (none by me). Nothing unusual happened to cause this (no era change or anything). Here is the new screen:

Screenshot (20).png




Here was the turn just before:


Screenshot (21).png



None of the civs were earning enough GS pts a turn to have triggered anything next turn that way.

What happened?

Arent we all still technically in the Medieval Age? (even though the savegame says its been the Renaissance Age for over 200 turns already). How was that Renaissance Scientist, and the following 3 triggered?
 
You are probably being sniped by another player, who buys the last GPP needed with faith. If an AI buys alot of great persons with faith the cost will sky rocket.

There's no relation between GP cost and buying with gold or faith. Sadly misinformation happens everywhere and correct information are just hided. The managers shall highlight the GP cost guidance.
 
But it will be relatively "automatic", wont it? The required points go down to 720 for the 4 Renaissance GS when Renaissance hits...and the top four civs will claim them in a row, right? Cause they will all have over 720 pts by that time.

You misunderstood what I meant

All numbers are arbitrary for the sake of example

Turn 120 - Medieval Era - Irene costs 720 Great People Points, she is the last great person of the Medieval Era, someone recruits.

Turn 121 - Medieval Era - Darwin now costs 1900 Great People Points, he is the first person of the Renaissance Era. The cost is inflated because of the era disparancy (Renaissance vs Medievla)

Turn 181- Renaissance Era - Darwin still costs 1900, his cost is not adjusted because the game changed eras. He is still the first person of Great Renaissance Era. There are 2 other people competing both over 1200 points.

Turn 182 - Renaissance Era - Wilfrid recruits Darwin for 1900 people points. The next great person now costs 900 because it is now Renaissance Era. The other 2 people, Dido and Gilgamesh both have over 1200 points. They both recruit the other two Renaissance Era.

Turn 183 - Renaissance Era - First Industrial Era Great Person now costs 2100 or whatever. The cost is once again inflated. and iwthint a single turn all Renaissance Era great people have been recruited.

The change "resets" when a great person is recruited. so the first GPP is always inflated, while the other two are not, assuming that the great people aren't recruited beforehand.

I also thing the difference between the eras scales. so Industrial Era people are much more inflated (say 100% compared to 50%).

This must've been added with Rise and Fall as a failsafe mechanic because I don't know how the game handles itg wqithout either expansion pack.
 
Is the "game age" based on the most advanced tech discovered? Does this have any affect on gameplay numbers or is it just cosmetic? Does it really matter at all that the dramatic era counter tells me im in the "Classical Age" (even though as Babylon i have already discovered a Renaissance tech through Eurekas) or does it really matter that the game sees itself as in the "Renaissance Age" as a whole but tells me im in the "Classical Age"? lol sorry its probably a simple answer but this has always confused me if this affected anything...

I'm not sure how much you know or don't know, so I'll say all this:

The important era is the World Era, which is the same for everybody. It is the most important because it affects when certain game mechanics are triggered, such as espionage and world congress.

Your individual Civ's "era" is just how advanced you are in the tech and civic trees. I might be wrong, but I believe this is just descriptive. Iirc this only shows up in the Historical Moments, when you get a new civic or tech from a new era.

The amount of turns required to enter a new Era is not a static number (which is why, if you check how long it takes for the next era, it gives you a range. Only when there's 10 or less turns does it become definite). I don't know the formula used, but it's some sort of average of the individual Civs progress through the tech and civic trees. So, games where most Civs are going slower through the tech trees will take longer to enter a new Era. Games where most Civs are progressing quickly will have shorter Eras. The range is just the minimum or maximum amount of turns the current Era might last.

IMPORTANTLY, any techs, civics or great people from an era which is more advanced than the current world era will have a penalty applied to its cost. So, researching a Renaissance tech in the Medieval Era is more expensive than researching a Renaissance tech in the Renaissance Era.

In the same way, techs from a previous era than the current world era get a discount applied to their original cost.

Age is a separate mechanic introduced in Rise and Fall, which relates to but is not the same as Eras. In each Era you may be in a Dark, Normal, Gold or Heroic Age.

Anybody else, please feel free to correct me as I'm not sure about the details.

Ok, now im more confused than ever.

None of the civs were earning enough GS pts a turn to have triggered anything next turn that way.

Go to the settings (interface, I believe) and turn on the ribbons for every Civ. Check if there's somebody with ridiculous amounts of Gold or Faith.

Also check if there are Aid Requests going on which is funnelling Gold towards a single Civ.

Arent we all still technically in the Medieval Age? (even though the savegame says its been the Renaissance Age for over 200 turns already). How was that Renaissance Scientist, and the following 3 triggered?

That's the thing. You can trigger GPs from more advanced eras, but their price will have a penalty applied to their already higher cost.

As Babylon, having completed the Great Library many turns ago, i was hoping to get the Great Scientist ball rolling...but all Civs, including me, have only accumulated 570 GP or less so far with only ~4-9 points a turn being accumulated.

I’m accumating the most with 9 per turn, every other Civ is lower, I’ve never gotten a Great Scientist yet...

To be clear, the Great Library is great for Babylon because every time someone else gets a GS, you get a tech boost, which in your case means a free tech. I may be reading this incorrectly, but you seem to want the Great Library for the GP points. Other Civs getting all the GS isn't really a bad thing in Babylon's case.
 
For those curious:

Here's me about to recruit Leonardo Da Vinci. He's a Renaissance Era Great Person, and was available since Medieval Era, one era ahead, his cost is slightly elevated.

You can see that the Great General and Great Admiral (which have been selling like hotcakes) are 1075gp and 575gp despite being from the same era (Industrial).
Spoiler :
upload_2020-11-30_23-11-49.png


After I recruit, you can see Mimar become cheaper all of a sudden, largely due to the fact that he matches the Era.

Spoiler :

upload_2020-11-30_23-13-32.png


Also note how Korea's GP didn't change, they're the same, so when this phenomeon occurs in civilizations with more than enough GP, then it sucks them up, without scaling the points, which causes the GP to just inflate again.

See the Great Generals who cost 100, Once Dandara gets recruited, I will assume that the price will go down to 545.

Spoiler :

upload_2020-11-30_23-17-10.png


You can see that 8 civilizations have well over 545 Great People points, which will cause the overflow to happen again.

Frederick (or whoever) recruited Dandara, the next great person was Napoleon of Industrial Era, but the price went down.

Spoiler :

upload_2020-11-30_23-24-51.png


Since there were many leaders vying for the Great Generals, all Industrial Era generals were recruited before the game even entered Industrial Era.

Spoiler :

upload_2020-11-30_23-26-54.png



And now the price has gone from 545 to 1685, and Arabia, Aztecs and few others are still well ahead.
 
I don't know the details, but no matter how good my game is or how much I focus on great scientists, I never seem to be able to get them until the one in the Medieval era who can heal your units
 
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