Can units like prophets cross borders, without regard?

[vmxa]

I spotted some apostles and I did not want them to spread, so I attacked them. What want know is do they act like spies in that they can only be stopped by killing them? Can they come into your land, if you do not have open borders?

Got a laugh, when after the auto DOW, I was chastised for settling too close. Why are we talking, were are at war?

 

[Proteus]

Yes, apostles and missionaries can cross borders even without an open borders treaty
(best way to kill them is in combat with your own apostles, missionaries or inquisitors)

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Easiest way to kill them is with a DOW and military units
Most peacful way to kill them is with religious units

 

[dexters]

There's a bit of a problem right now with missionary/apostle spam. Best defense is to pop missionaries and block their paths. They will engage . Be sure to retreat of your missionaries before they die, to heal them up.

 

[bladex]

you can declare a holy war to get rid of them after they convert a city or two the WarMonger penalties aren't as high but you'll still be called a WM

if you want to get rid of them with holy units use inquis as tanks and let the units attack them when they get low health swoop in with an apos and finish them off.

 

[vmxa]

I really hate this mechanic. Went from nothing to 4 apostles in my land, plus one town adopted their religion. I had not enough time to spread my own. In any event I want to have wars, lots of them. Looks like back to civ3 for me. I should have waited as I have not cared much for IV, hated V. At least IV was not awful, just not for me. Too bad as this game does have some interesting concepts. Religion is one of the main things that I hated about IV, it was too important.

 

[callan]

It's not at all important in VI for most civs and you can safely ignore it and the micro-bonuses it provides without effecting gameplay at all. In fact for an aggressive warmonger it is a bonus to be converted as you have a cheaper Cassus Beli to use when fighting. Really not sure why you'd be looking at it as a bad thing?

 

[dexters]

@vmxa

I haven't tried founding a religion at all . Initially because I was figuring put the systems but once I saw the apostle spam I just let the AI fight over my cities.

I would broadly consider religion as a difficult mechanic right now and I'm not sure if anyone has won religious on any of the higher difficulties.

Ironically this is one aspect of the game the AI is very good at. Every civ who founds a religion will devote resources to spread them which means on higher difficulties religion is out of reach for most people.

AI needs to be retuned slightly to not prefer a religion so much to allow human players not playing Arabia a chance to reasonably to nab a prophet on the medium settings

Also since foundimg religions require holy sites and faith investments I do wonder if tuning religion preference down for the AI might help them as those resources would go to another district

 

[bladex]

if you don't want to deal with religion at all than play as kongo.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

There's a bit of a problem right now with missionary/apostle spam. Best defense is to pop missionaries and block their paths. They will engage . Be sure to retreat of your missionaries before they die, to heal them up.

I don't understand what you mean "problem". Is it a problem in some sense that people playing their first 2 or 3 playthroughs are overwhelmed? Is it a problem because. for some reason, people aren't anticipating this behavior from civs with high religious flavor? Why is it a problem that the game tries to win the game?

 

[dexters]

I don't understand what you mean "problem". Is it a problem in some sense that people playing their first 2 or 3 playthroughs are overwhelmed? Is it a problem because. for some reason, people aren't anticipating this behavior from civs with high religious flavor? Why is it a problem that the game tries to win the game?

The AI focuses on it too much and end up stalemating each other. Basically every civ that founds a religion will attempt to spread their religion. Even in the late game.

The spam should be limited to those going for religious grand strategy . Other Civs that found a religion should be limited to defending and spreading to their own cities. This would allow a clear leader to emerge.

I actually think this vc is one the AI is capable if pulling off unpatched of only they toned down the spam from every civ that has found a religion.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

I don't understand your argument. Opponents should be making religious units, those units should be fighting each other, and the whole process should be in a means to convert the others and win religious victory. It's like you're saying they just shouldn't be doing this because they're just going to waste faith points and end up losing anyway, but they don't always lose. It's also a diplomatic hit between AI opponents if they're not cool with having religion spread, and a player can use these disagreements between opponents to foster better diplomacy with one or the other.

I feel you haven't explained how "spamming religious units" is a bad thing in the code or bad for the game in any way. You just make this blanket statement, "There's a bit of a problem right now with missionary/apostle spam." Aside from a communicated measure of defeatism, what are you trying to explain? What, besides "units are going to die, it might not be successful" is the "problem"?

 

[dexters]

My point , only 2 or fewer AI should focus on religious VC

This could improve the performance of other founders as they will spend their faith defending or spreading to their cities but pursue their VC and not waste their faith on it.

Not all religions need to spread all over. in some games maybe no one is competing and in others you may have 2 or 3 fighting. But generally you don't want more than 2 fighting.

 

[redwings1340]

Unit rules have tons of complications that are really difficult for the AI, but religious spam is relatively simple comparatively. The AI apostles are just as good as our apostles, sometimes better if they're in a theocracy and have the right beliefs for it, which makes their boosts in production and faith really useful for overwhelming you with religious spam.

In my current arabia game I've found that inquisitors are very useful at keeping out enemy religions from your borders, but I've been trying to use theocracy purchasing and great people purchasing otherwise, because I imagine that an immortal spain would be very difficult to convert. I did manage to take out sythia's religion by killing Sythia though.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Unit rules have tons of complications that are really difficult for the AI, but religious spam is relatively simple comparatively. The AI apostles are just as good as our apostles, sometimes better if they're in a theocracy and have the right beliefs for it, which makes their boosts in production and faith really useful for overwhelming you with religious spam.

In my current arabia game I've found that inquisitors are very useful at keeping out enemy religions from your borders, but I've been trying to use theocracy purchasing and great people purchasing otherwise, because I imagine that an immortal spain would be very difficult to convert. I did manage to take out sythia's religion by killing Sythia though.

What generally ends up happening here is that the AI apostles are significantly more powerful than your inquisitors until you get theocracy, so you get the inquisition going, make a few inquisitors and have them hide out in cities to snap-convert back to your religion after you declare formal war and walk over all his 7-10 apostles with warriors and archers. Now he has something like 1600 faith points down the drain, you pop your inquisitors when necessary and buy out your own apostles. Work to end the war whatever means necessary, then send your translators and proslytizers to faith bomb his biggest cities, one of which is probably his holy city, or at least hit the ones with holy sites, and he can't make any more religious defense.

Been through this scenario several times already on emp and imm. For one I even submitted a bug report because I curb-stomped Rome so badly that he broke and just started spamming at me with my own religion's missionaries. Now "that" needs fixed. He could save that faith for a great person.

 

[redwings1340]

Work to end the war whatever means necessary, then send your translators and proslytizers to faith bomb his biggest cities, one of which is probably his holy city, or at least hit the ones with holy sites, and he can't make any more religious defense

In my experience, you don't need to end the war, the AI will completely ignore your apostles even if you're at war with them. Their military doesn't see apostles as enemy units, and you can convert their empires even if you're at war. I converted Arabia this way in my first Roman game.

Barbarians can kill your apostles though, so be careful about rebellions that occur in AI cities due to ammenities issues.

 

[smartcanuck1988]

In my experience, you don't need to end the war, the AI will completely ignore your apostles even if you're at war with them. Their military doesn't see apostles as enemy units, and you can convert their empires even if you're at war. I converted Arabia this way in my first Roman game.

Barbarians can kill your apostles though, so be careful about rebellions that occur in AI cities due to ammenities issues.

This is my experience as well. The AI totally ignores my apostles even when we are at war. I parked some apostles in key areas to block the AI unit movement and also to act as "spies" to let me see what it's mustering in its production cities so I plan my attack accordingly. I think this needs patching.

 

[GhostSalsa]

I don't understand what you mean "problem". Is it a problem in some sense that people playing their first 2 or 3 playthroughs are overwhelmed? Is it a problem because. for some reason, people aren't anticipating this behavior from civs with high religious flavor? Why is it a problem that the game tries to win the game?

If features in the game cannot be used by the player, because investment in them is always inefficient, then the game has a balance problem. The only reason features are created is because players like to use them, and because they add to representing history. And not only is this the problem with religion in VI, it was already the problem with religion on high difficulties on V. The AI over-focused on it, and AI bonuses meant that the human player could not found a religion out of specific starts, so Piety was a pointless culture tree, and never needed a single resource wasted on including it in the game, so Byzantium was useless, and never needed a single resource wasted on putting it in the game, etc etc.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

If features in the game cannot be used by the player, because investment in them is always inefficient, then the game has a balance problem. The only reason features are created is because players like to use them, and because they add to representing history. And not only is this the problem with religion in VI, it was already the problem with religion on high difficulties on V. The AI over-focused on it, and AI bonuses meant that the human player could not found a religion out of specific starts, so Piety was a pointless culture tree, and never needed a single resource wasted on including it in the game, so Byzantium was useless, and never needed a single resource wasted on putting it in the game, etc etc.

I agree that piety in 5 was weak. I understand at higher difficulty it's impossible for some civs ( or maybe any in given situations, i.e. with no help from terrain or discovery) to get a religion in both 5 and 6. However, aside from a marked bonus, both to production of holy sites and (I think?) percentage to faith point earning, I don't see the AI doing anything I don't do. I stack batches of apostles as I make them and send 6 or 7 as a defensive line with 4 or 5 missionaries. Why wouldn't I, unless I want the game to last 2 more hours?

Anyway, by the time the AI is doing this, if you can't muster a concerted defense against 8 or 9 apostles, there are things you can do, or honestly if you can't, if you're earning less than 20 faith per turn "and" you don't have the luxury of bulldozing the religious units with spearmen and archers for whatever reason, maybe you didn't think this through well and should not have pushed to found a religion. Maybe do better next game. Also this isn't a "you" as in "you", but a general "you". Please don't reply with the number of times you won religious victory on diety, it would be missing the point.