Cannot build watermills

[vsipinen]

After I have patched the Fall From Heaven I noticed that I cannot build watermills. I noticed also that change log of one patch mentions that they were removed. Why is that ? I am quite curios about the motivation of that change. I am also little bit annoyed about the change (especially when finding out the issue after I had planned to build several watermills in my latest game). What was wrong about the watermills so that they had to be removed ? Is there any chance to get them back ?

 

[WarKirby]

We still have watermills in Fall Further, and they're better : )

 

[MrPopov]

I guess the extra commerce from workshops really out-yields the watermill?

In my games though I mod it to allow watermills in forest tiles.

 

[Deon]

Aye, it's quite a sad loss. I'd better see them tweaked to play a bit different role than workshops rather than be totally removed.

 

[vsipinen]

Aye, it's quite a sad loss. I'd better see them tweaked to play a bit different role than workshops rather than be totally removed.

Don't the workshops reduce the food yield ? I have not used workshops much, because I think that at least previously workshops reduced the food yield. Has that been changed ? Also isn't it possible to build workshops in other places than near rivers, when watermills had to be built near rivers. Why would the watermills and workshops play same role - were they modified such way ?

 

[MrPopov]

well with agrarianism and sanitation, you really only need a few farms to more than make up for any loss the workshop suffers. Also, the workshop has been given +1 commerce which next to rivers for financial civs bumps it another +1 thus making watermills pretty much obsolete.

 

[MacGyverInSpace]

Workshops on rivers have watermills as unique art?
Pros: Aesthetically cool yet not adding to the useless choices
Cons: Possibly a little confusing to new players, would likely need to implemented with code and a dummy improvement (Workshop with watermill art)

 

[Emptiness]

The funky way that civ handles watermill placement (only one per river segment) would complicate any attempt to implement that idea. I would definitely oppose restricting workshops in the way that watermills are restricted.

 

[hbar]

I think watermills should be a city improvement (only available on river tiles, of course) that add + for each grain-type resource (flour mills), and + for each textile-type resource (textile mills).

 

[popejubal]

I think watermills should be a city improvement (only available on river tiles, of course) that add + for each grain-type resource (flour mills), and + for each textile-type resource (textile mills).

I like that idea. It's a neat building that could be very nice to have, but not overpowered at all because of the enormous abundance of food in FfH. It would make building on a river up in the tundra region a lot more appealing when you're just trying to build a garbage city to grab a resource.

Also, Workshops are simply amazing in FfH and it's the FfH Farms that makes them so good. Lost food is insignificant when you consider that each Farm produces:
2 base for Grassland
+1 for farm
+1 for Agrarian
+1 for Sanitation
for a total of 5 per generic Grassland Farm without food bonuses. 2 grassland farms is enough to support 6 population without any other food aside from the main city tile. 4 Workshops on Plains or 4 Plains Hills Mines will give you a bunch of production. I've started to use Workshops and Watermills in the mid-late game under BtS and I've found a massive improvement in my games because of it.

 

[vsipinen]

Also, Workshops are simply amazing in FfH and it's the FfH Farms that makes them so good. Lost food is insignificant when you consider that each Farm produces

I started to wonder, should the food penalty of the workshop be increased to compensate the effectiveness of the farms ? Should the workshops for example decrease the food yield by two units instead of one ? Perhaps in that case also building watermills tile improvements would be more relevant.

 

[Emptiness]

How would that make watermills more relevant? There'd be even more pressure to build farms for the extra food.

Here is my suggestion for watermills: Available at Archery and worth +1 /+1 /+1 . +1 at Sanitation. +1 at Machinery. +2 at Mercantilism. The result is a better but limited alternative to farms for non-Aristocratic civs which does not provide greater output than a workshop, nor better than a (developed) cottage, but does provide some of the benefits of both. Eventually it will have better output than an Aristocracy farm, but by then more advanced civic alternatives are available. The limited placement of watermills means that in some situations there may still be reason to remain in Aristocracy, so watermills won't kill the civic choice.

 

[cvlowe]

I started to wonder, should the food penalty of the workshop be increased to compensate the effectiveness of the farms ? Should the workshops for example decrease the food yield by two units instead of one ? Perhaps in that case also building watermills tile improvements would be more relevant.

If you did that, you would be trading 2 food for one hammer. Not really a worthwhile trade in the early game. That would make a start without hill plots completely unsurvivable.

 

[vsipinen]

How would that make watermills more relevant? There'd be even more pressure to build farms for the extra food.

I thought that it could make watermills more attractive than workshops where it is possible to build watermills.

 

[vsipinen]

If you did that, you would be trading 2 food for one hammer. Not really a worthwhile trade in the early game. That would make a start without hill plots completely unsurvivable.

Don't the workshops now give also some other bonus than one hammer ?

 

[Emptiness]

Later in the game they give up to +4 , but he's talking about the early game. They start out giving only +1 .

Losing all the food output of a grassland tile seems very harsh. It would definitely make a watermill seem more attractive, but then it would make any other improvement seem more attractive. I think the best way to make watermills more attractive is to make them good, rather than making workshops bad. Of course it's important not to make them too good because access to river tiles is already powerful enough.