Cao Cao on 68x64 at Noble level

[Agent327]

After playing Yuan Shao and Liu Bao (both in Single Player and MP mode) I've started a game with Cao Cao, using Custom Scenario (Raging Barbs, Aggressive AI, No Tech Brokering, No Settlers).

After eliminating both Lu Bu (December 196) and Bai Bo (October 194), whom I started at war with, by diverting some catapults from one invading army to the other, I engaged on my trusted strategy of slow expansion and cultural build-up, to which my control of the Emperor is crucial.

By 204 AD Zhang Yan has become my vassal and converted to Unification. I failed to gain Liu Bao as my vassal (he was at war with a major rival), which however wouldn't have worked anyway as I'm not currently planning to go to war, just keeping my forces as up-to-date as possible by focusing on economy and research.

I now have a reasonable map view, following some initial scouting and - mostly - map trading. What surprises me most so far that Yuan Shao has been unsuccesful in defeating Gongsun Zan completely (he's still around, though 2nd last in civ score) and even temporarily lost his capital to Zhang Yang. Needless to say he made no progress at all against Kong Rong, with whom I've just opened borders, and is still coping with invading barbarians.

Screenshots below (current situation is the last one):

 

[Agent327]

Made a little progress; by this time (206 AD) I've also gained Kong Rong as a vassal:

 

[Agent327]

By 207 AD I've gained a city from Yuan Shao. Unfortunately I can't finish the game, as my savegame won't load with the latest patch... So I'll end with a note on Gongsun Du (top left on the map) who in every game I've played just starts pumping out his Advocates and never seems to do anything else - nor is he ever threatened by a rival.

Next I'll probably try a game one level up.

 

[Shiggs713]

funny that you mention that, about Gongsun Du, in my current Zhang Yang campaign he is the most technologically advanced civ and its fairly late into the game;

Spoiler :

obviously i though it was so strange i decided to take a screen shot

btw I'm on the 68x64 map on prince/epic, settlers on, no time victory

Also I just had an amazing set of turns as Zhang Yang. Yuan Shao and I (and all of our vassals) have been at war with Cao Cao for a little while now. I just made some huge progress taking 3 cities within 3 turns. Then I made Cao Cao capitulate.

Meanwhile Sun Ce and Liu Biao have been at war for a long time, and next turn after I capitulated Cao Cao, Liu Biao offers himself as a vassal to me. I accept, which makes Zhang Xiu a sovereign state for the first time all game. We have been tech buddies, and I asked him to switch to Revival a long time ago so we're "friendly", and he also accepts to become my vassal on the same turn.

Then the next turn I pop a great scientist and already had another GP saved, so I start my 17 turn golden age I have the world wonder that increases it 50%.

Spoiler :

it was grand, gaining 435 points in 1 turn that is. The highlighted stack is in Lu Xian. Its actually the smallest of my 3 stacks of doom. Dong Ping and Pei Xian have really huge stacks, though all 3 are so large they dont fit on the screen properly.

I think I can get diplo victory next time it pops up, because I've been making everyone vote on submit hostage and other things I already know the outcome, so I can decrease their votes while increasing mine.

 

[Agent327]

funny that you mention that, about Gongsun Du, in my current Zhang Yang campaign he is the most technologically advanced civ and its fairly late into the game;

Spoiler :

obviously i though it was so strange i decided to take a screen shot

btw I'm on the 68x64 map on prince/epic, settlers on, no time victory

As is clear from your screenshot - probably due to your aggressive play style - he may be the most advanced, but he's still just sitting where he started. So even with Setlers ON, he's basically just sitting there in the corner doing nothing...

Anyway, on your game (and review).

 

[Shiggs713]

yea he doesn't do much. Now I'm working on making Yuan Shao capitulate, that way all his vassals will be mine also. I've already wittled him down to a 1 front war where I have 2 mega stacks of doom and I already anhilated his.

Kong Rong has been a clever foe. Somehow even with only 1 city he is nearly as advanced as me (and everyone else). Although Gongsun Du is 1st in technology, its only by a thread, usually he gets a new tech only a few turns before me.

I think Kong Rong and Gongsun Du have been stealing techs from Yuan Shao, and 1 of them even stole a tech from me. They do surprising well on technology, but overall I think the AI's build far too many buildings. I had enough espionage to see Cao Cao and Liu Bei's cities, and both were constructing buildings even while getting overrun.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I'm having a blast playing my favorite character, Liu Zhang. He's very fun to play because of his Spiritual trait and 2 promotions (guerilla 1 and 2) which makes going to Minor Military Bureau a breeze. The fact that there's little belief initially means that after opening borders with Cao Cao I got Unification, the bestest belief all around. (Who needs Revival when you're spiritual, i.e. the commandery doesn't really help you since you have no anarchy) It's 211. I've already vassalized the whole western half of China (Ma Teng and Li Jue; Han Sui and Zhang Lu are dead). Yuan Shao surprisingly is losing a war to Gongsun Zan so I'm letting him stew in the north for now. I've just eliminated Cao Cao (who had the audacity to fight a 2 front war against Liu Biao and myself--just because he's friendly to me doesn't mean I wont DOW on him). I've rescued the emperor and installed him in Luoyang (which is only historically incorrect), and moved my capital there. I took a hit in maintenance, but it's worth it for my future reunification.

I've previously asked Liu Biao to declare on Sun Ce, so while he's busy on his eastern side, I'll mop up Liu Bei and Kong Rong, and probably get Yuan Shao next. Then it's Liu Biao's death if he doesn't ask me to vassalize soon.

 

[Agent327]

With the latest patch I've started a new game as Yuan Shao. Starting at war with 2 civs I've concluded peace with Kong Rong and eliminated the other (seeing as my army was in the north and Kong Rong only accessible via Cao Cao), while taking the one barb city next to my northwestern border. Currently Cao Cao has finally managed to eliminate Bai Bo (after 100+ turns) and warfare seems to be minimal (I'm fending off barbarians to the north and haven't much of an army left to put in the field).

Screenshots (Cao Cao moving against Bai Bo):

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Why do you hoard so much cash? I nearly always run a negative balance if I can. Upgrading units just isn't worth it, and unless you run purchasing or emperor, cash is not useful. I get a ton of cash just by selling world maps (maybe your hoard was from selling maps, since you're building Icy Fort?)

(I find that in monarch you can't really catch up in science unless you run Mohism and run all science until mid game, even with trading a lot of techs)

 

[Agent327]

I don't like running a deficit (for obvious reasons, I don't want my units to go on strike) and I really like to upgrade units (especially my veterans/Legions/heroes), which is costly, but I think it's worth it. Playing Yuan Shao I need to keep my military as up to date as possible, just as a deterrent against aggression. (I can put an army in the field if need be, but currently I have very little spare units - catapults mostly, from my campaign in the north; mainly I'm now building up my cities and keeping them sufficiently garrisoned.) So you might say I'm playing it safe, as it's my first ever game on Monarch level with Civ4.

 

[Shiggs713]

I thought you said it was on prince? Regardless, I agree with AP. Sometimes I run such a negative balance that I lose 400+ gold in 1 turn. If I can crank up the science and save even a single turn for a tech, I will, to give more opportunities to trade techs, before some other civ trades it all around and I'm stuck in the dark ages not trading with anyone.

I agree upgrading experienced elite units is worth it but overall the cost of upgrading is actually higher than the cost of producing the unit from scratch in the first place. This is a fact, not opinion. Add in all the experience giving buildings and they come rolling out with 3 promotions anyways even as greenhorn troops.

I wish I could finish up my Zhang Yang game and show you guys some of the screen shots. Its taking forever! Seriously half the mini-map is purple Stupid Yuan Shao would not capitulate until he only had 2 cities left, and by then I just wanted to finish him off. Gongsun Du was the complete opposite, I landed roughly 60 troops (mostly knights and dao dun swords) near his capitol and he capitulated without a single battle.

By the time I killed Zhang Lu (sp?, the green civ) the other guy Liu Zhang (I forget, surely I'm spelling this wrong)... the one that is in permanent war anyways. After I killed Yuan Shao and capitulated Gongsun Du, his attitude went from "friendly" to "furious" with me instantly and he wouldn't become my vassal cause he said "you are too strong for us".... strange reasoning to resist I thought, so I DOWed and easily stomped him and yet now I STILL have to kill Sun Ce before I can win because I'm a few votes short of winning a diplo-victory and these stupid AI's are resisting what is inevitable. Seriously when you see my graphs you'll be in shock. The power graph goes up consistently at a 70 degree angle, while others like Cao Cao and Yuan Shao dropped like a rock. I'm not even managing my cities anymore (or even producing anything for that matter, just culture and wealth), just moving around some huge mega stack towards Sun Ce that has literally almost 200 units in it. When I select the group I can barely even see the map cause all the icons.

oh and btw I never switched out of corvee the entire game

 

[Agent327]

I said I'd probably start a game one level up and I did.

I produce troops alright, but I don't like this stack-o'-doom thing and I don't usually play warmonger style; I use my military as a deterrent (which seems to work so far), but keeping my cities up and running means I can put an army in the field if someone DOWs me. I'm not sure how to interpret that

"overall the cost of upgrading is actually higher than the cost of producing the unit from scratch in the first place. This is a fact, not opinion. Add in all the experience giving buildings and they come rolling out with 3 promotions anyways even as greenhorn troops."

If you don't build up your cities as well, there seems little point in upgrading or building new troops as they'll be missing out on all those promotions.)

BTW, why wait til you're done to put up some screenies? (By then it'll be all over...)

 

[Shiggs713]

oh I build up my cities nicely. Usually I go for any production increasing buildings first. Always use civics that increase my ability to produce in any way. So usually I'll be getting a 25% bonus for buildings and units, and on top of that another 10% overall boost from the other civic. In my Zhang Yang game, he is industrious so I get bonuses building forges and I think metalworks also. Even on Epic speed I can usually produce buildings one after another 1 turn each, a few take up to maybe 6 turns max so it really doesn't take that long to have a city at full capability. Once you get going it has a huge snowball effect, in most my games for the first 100-150 turns my empire will appear quite average in the graphs, and once I hit the point when the avalanche starts, it goes bonkers, straight up in some cases on the graphs. If you use Corvee very cleverly you can actually get some insane early production, both units and buildings, and even let your cities grow reasonably well also.

here's the last screen shot I took from awhile back. (I haven't played in a couple days, been busy) This was from before I finished Yuan Shao, Zhang Lu, and Liu Zhang off, and made Gongsun Du capitulate. The army you see there is still intact, and is down near Sun Ce with an even larger army out in front.

oh and actually I was kinda hording gold there too, but mainly just to upgrade units in newly conquered lands that were on the front lines.... in that case I do upgrade. I had so much gold and troops it didn't matter much anyways

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So I started an emperor game with Yuan Shao aiming for domination eventually. Finished Gongsun Zan after a protracted fight till 199 (somewhat appropriate since the battle of Yi Jing was 199 or so, even though that was the first city I got). Sent the majority of my army down south for Cao Cao, got Guan Du with 1 archer, and Xu Chang was no better. Pu Yang had the majority of the stack with Qingzhou armies, but swift riders beat them any day. So now I'm up against Bai Bo and about to capture Luoyang. Lu Bu is cautious but I'm sure they'll go for Liu Bei if I play my diplo cards right.

 

[Shiggs713]

Just started it tonight and its going surprisingly well. I've managed to stay in 2nd in score, but I have a feeling Yuan Shao is running away in the mfg department. I did your trick, AP that you talked about, getting the TianLu Library, then the Chancellor Mansion, and even added on the Royal Hunting Field to top it off. I even had some quest to build 9 schools, and it gave me a huge bonus for having the TianLu Library Now Ji Yin is a powerhouse.

Lu Bu and the other guy died easily. I think I have 6 legions now because I purchased one and got all of Lu Bu's. Hopefully I can stay peaceful and keep trading techs, but usually when I run out of stuff to build in my cities its war. And its still only turn 83.

Spoiler :

 

[Agent327]

Cool!

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I think that whenever you play Cao Cao, in order to avoid the stacks of horsemen and archers coming later, you have to get Ye, Han Dan and Dun Qiu early on, while he's still busy fighting Gongsun Zan. If you don't get rid of the iron he'll be quite a challenge later on.
Conversely, while playing Yuan Shao, win the Battle of Guan Du before Cao Cao has time to recover from his 2 front war.
Ultimately, once you have the productive square between Qiao, Ye, Xu Chang and Luoyang, there's no other civ other than Sun Ce who can muster anything militarily to oppose you.

 

[Shiggs713]

Continued a little more this morning... I declared war on Kong Rong to make Yuan Shao happy with me, and the same vs Yan Biahu or whatever his name is for Sun Ce to make him happy also. Kong Rong is almost dead, the other war is just for show, I don't intend to fight a single battle.

I had another quest!!! I did the horse whisperer, even though I was thinking "what a waste to build all these stables, but oh well, I didn't have much else to build except maybe some units to begin a build up for war, so I built 9 of them, and completed the quest.

Spoiler :

so now not only am I getting 2 free specialist in every city (from talent hiring, and the advisor mansion), my other UB gives another +1 , and now the stables +1 and +4 oh and being agricultural. I'm about to switch the the civics (I forget all the names) that give bonuses to specialist and increase trade routes. I'm already using the one that gives farms +1

Oh and Ji Yin has two great scientist in it now, and as you know Cao Cao is talented. I think I get something like 60 science a turn in Ji Yin even if my spending is at 0%.

its going quite well, except for now I only have 60% of the strength of Yuan Shao, but then again, I've barely built 10 units yet... nearly all buildings, but now my ciites are maxed out for my tech level so its about time to build up. Also I have insane espionage because of all my specialist, so I can see fairly well what everyone near me is doing

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I nearly always get the stable event. I almost count on having it even if cavalry is so much more expensive nowadays. All the more reason to get those horses up north...

On the other hand, events are only good if you have a large empire. I think if you capture cities later on, the bonuses that you get after completing the quests (from the schools and stables) don't apply.

 

[Agent327]

Started another game, this time with Liu Biao at Monarch level. (I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps the scenario is just too easy...) Anyway, here are some screenshots: on turns 18 (shot #1) and 25 (#2) the first civs are eliminated. Next I recruited Wen Li (#3).