Capturing Units

[Cassius Belli]

I was thinking of the possibility of being able to capture enemy units after an engagement.Like a group of Panzer 2's attack a formation of T-34's and somehow knock all out except one,well they then have the option of capturing the remaining tank. They then have a more advanced tank,but still cannot manufacture the better,stronger,whatever unit till they advance to that tech,or can't at all if it is a nation specific unit.It would add a more realistic element in regards to guerilla,partisan etc behaviour.Any comments?Has someone suggested this already,I couldn't find anything similar?

 

[Adler17]

Good idea. There is ever the cance of capturing enemy material in battle. Even ships or planes. So you should get these units, but they should have only 1 hp left. Then you have to heal them. Without the ability to replace the loss of that unit.

Adler

 

[Talesin]

A good idea but does that mean that a spearman could capture a tank? Maybe only special units could do it. Like a tankbuster immobalises it and it is left on the terain and then a repairman restores it to 1hp. It could only be healed if you had the tech to get it.

 

[Garbarsardar.jr]

IMHO you could mod a similar effect with theC3C enslave ability...

 

[Cassius Belli]

Yeah,exactly what I was thinking.The enemy has 1hp left then you can capture it(1 turn),then have to repair or protect it the turn after that.While theoretical possible for spearmen to capture a tank,need overwhelming manpower(think Chinese human waves in Korea),I think it would be put to more use for a civ that is only 3-4 steps behind in tech and needs just a bit more firepower to hang on till upgrades.I don't have Conquests yet so I can't comment on the slavery ability.Also one alien civ and techs would be interesting,esp for us Harry Turtledove fans who want to make Worldwar/Colonization scenarios.

 

[rcoutme]

As G. Jr. said, C3C already allows the enslave ability. However, the ability sets the type of unit that gets created, the suggestion here would be a twist on that. In other words, in C3C if a unit can enslave then all units it enslaves are the same (e.g. workers, privateers). The suggestion that 'enslaving' a unit (other than a 0 a/d unit) would allow for the unit to retain its original type might be interesting, however, I am not sure that being able to enslave 20 spearmen in a battle (when using a bunch of cavalry or tanks) is really all that realistic or balanced.

Also, did you mean to allow the unit to be another freebie, or would the enslaving player have to pay upkeep? If the capturing player has to pay upkeep, would he get a reputation hit for not taking the "free" unit? If a captured unit is subsequently killed by enemy action, would this cause War Weariness? If the answers to the last 3 questions are "yes" then I would be against this idea.

 

[Garbarsardar.jr]

I agree with rcoutme. Again a better-albeit more complex-editor will be the answer to all that. Come to think of that, since IMHO we all carry our vices and desires to this game, an in-depth editor would be CIV4's answer to a multitude of wishes expressed in this forum...

 

[judgement]

I'm all for having this option available in the editor, since it might be useful for some scenarios and mods, but I don't think I'd like it in the epic game.

While its always possible for a side to capture units from the other side during battle, very rarely is it feasible to turn the unit around and use it effectively. Certainly in ancient times it isn't: just because you capture a group of spearmen doesn't mean they'll be willing to fight on your side. The modern times argument is that you capture tanks and ships, and then crew them with your own people, but that's really not realistic either. For one thing, you wouldn't necessarily have anyone trained to effectively operate the vehicles, so just having captured them would in no way give you a operable unit, and especially not one that could be as effective as it had been for the enemy. Secondly, each unit is presumably a division, or battalion, or somesuch - a group, not a single vehicle. Loss of hitpoints implies some vehicles are destroyed or damaged, and healing implies some are replaced or repaired. If you can't build the unit yourself because you lack the tech, then how are you going to repair or replace vehicles to bring the unit back to full strength? Finally, I don't see it as enabling "more realistic" guerilla or partisan behavior. I can't think of any war in RL in which guerillas capturing enemy vehicles and using the vehicles themselves played any major role. It seems like the sort of thing that's common on TV and in movies, but in real life, guerillas usually just have their hands full trying to destroy military units. How many American tanks have been captured by Iraqi insurgents? Or by the Viet-Cong during that Vietnam war? Capturing units and then being able to use them for your own side just doesn't seem realistic to me.

 

[Adler17]

In ww2 both sides used captured enemy "units" like German T 34 tanks or a Greek destroyer which became ZG 3 Hermes. So it isn´t unrealistic. The chance this happens should be 10% or so on the other hand.

Adler

 

[redstang423]

I think maybe instead of just plain capturing the unit and being able to use it, it should become more of a POW. Obviously, the American soldiers the Iraqi's captured didn't just become Iraqi soldiers and start fighting us. I think a better way of doing this would be using a POW situation (as incentive to make peace treaties, give into demands, etc.) and then have a small chance (increasing over time) that these POWs defect to your civilization.

 

[judgement]

In ww2 both sides used captured enemy "units" like German T 34 tanks or a Greek destroyer which became ZG 3 Hermes. So it isn´t unrealistic. The chance this happens should be 10% or so on the other hand.

Adler

Yes, but in civ, these would be units that the capturer could already build, i.e., both sides cold make destroyers and tanks.

The part I'm argueing most strongly against is the idea that a backwards civ that couldn't build tanks on their own could capture some instead and then immediately know how to repair them and use them effectively against their former owners.

If you were far from being able to build tanks on your own, you wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to work a captured tank: not only repair and operation, but basic maintenance and fueling would be problematic. On the other hand, if you were close to being able to make tanks yourself, you'd be much more likely to turn over the captured vehicles to your scientists so they could take them apart and figure out how they worked, giving you a leg up on your research.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point. Currently, a tech get easier to research if more civs that you have contact with get that tech. Perhaps a better way would have it depend on use of the tech. In other words, if your neighbors know horseback riding but never build any horsemen (maybe they don't even have the horse resource) then it shouldn't help you research horseback riding faster. On the other hand, if they build wave after wave of horsemen and send them to attack you, your people will get a lot of experience fighting against horses and will probably have an advantage when trying to figure out how to train horses on their own. They might even capture a few in combat, which would help them out.

 

[Cassius Belli]

In North America the indigenous population used unreproducable technologies to their advantage a lot of the time, knowledge of the terrain and good tactics led to numerous wins on their side, it was the inability to manufacture ammunition and parts that contributed to their defeat.In the early days of Rome they were far superior in tech to their neighbours, but the Gauls, Goths, Vandals etc used Rome's weapons against her and by 300a.d the Vandals were sweeping thru present Balkans and marching on Rome.There are a few more example I can think of but as I don't have internet I've only got 1/2hr at the libraries computers.So like I said earlier,it would best be used as a quick fix if you are a few techs behind.What exactly does this Enslave ability entail? I've got to get Conquests soon.