Catapults and siege weapons

[Tephros]

I normally promote my surviving catapults to accuracy at the time I get trebuchets because I'm not going to attack with catapults when I have trebuchets. The catapult might not even damage that longbowman he's attacking but with accuracy he can take down defenses like a non-accuracy treb.

In a few games there were barbarians marooned on islands or on the continent but limited to one or two squares by mountains or the great wall. I used them to get most of my siege weapons to 10 xp by continuously attacking the barbarian. It worked better when you could attack with siege weapons from the sea and the barbarian is forced to be stationary and heal 10% so that you can attack him every turn.

 

[Iranon]

The bulk of my siege force will be CR-promoted Trebuchets. The beauty of Trebs is that they have decent odds from the first fight if we bombard the city first.

A small number of accuracy-promoted units speed up the process - whether Trebuchets or Catapults matters little here in terms of hammer efficency. Personally, I prefer Trebuchets as those are also useful to continue the collateral orgy after a few CR ones have made the odds favourable.

Then I'll have a few catapults in case I need to take out an enemy stack in the field. Drill is my preferred promotion here - unless I misunderstand the mechanics it helps get some collateral in when the odds are low, in addition to cutting my losses when the odds are decent.

 

[vicawoo]

Collateral always happens at the beginning of the fight, before anything else.

 

[cripp7]

What about attaching a GG to a treb?

 

[UncleJJ]

@ Uncle JJ: The accuracy trebs are for bombarding cities not attacking the cities. I usually bring about 7-8 accuracy trebs if i am facing a civ that has castles built. And 15-20 CR2 Trebs. I like siege I use the accutrebs to knock off 40% or so, then the CRtrebs knock off the rest. The next turn the CR trebs attack. I like huge stacks of siege because those damaged in the first attacks can bombard while fresh trebs attack. This means I only have to stop and heal my stack once every two-three turns. I have a game online somewhere called "sticks n stones" where I used nothing but trebs, stack defenders and garrison units. I took 12 cities defended by LB's and lost a total of four units. In that game i had a grand total of 6 accutrebs, which could knock down cultural+walls defense in one swipe. If I had used cats I would have need 8ish?. The increase in upgrade costs to cannons would have been 1440 gold.

That is all well and good in your particular game where you might not need to build a balanced force of cats (for counter attack in the field) and trebs (for city assualt). In general, if the AI has decent sized stacks, it is better to have a 50- 50 split between cats and trebs in your SoD to deal with his main army. I agree the ability to reduce castle defences in one or two rounds is very desireable and I usually manage to put togther a SoD that can do that. Your game is interesting and amusing but surely you're not suggesting that is the best way to play?

The accuracy promotion adds the same amount of bombard ability to trebs as it does to cats. Against a castle a cat reduces the defence by 2% and with accuracy that becomes 4%. A treb reduces the same target by 4% and with accuracy that becomes 6%, so the promotion adds +2% to both units.

The point I made in my last post, which contradicts your assertion was, assuming you have a balanced mix of trebs and cats then it makes sense to give accuracy promotions to cats and to specialise your trebs for assualt. A cat with barrage and accuracy is not much worse for its main role of suiciding into a field army than one with barrage2, yet its secondary role of bombarding is doubled. A treb with CR1 and accuracy is much worse at its main role of assualting a city than a CR2 treb. So the best way to distribute the accuracy promotions is on cats and keep your trebs pure. An accuracy treb is a unit designed purely for bombarding and is much weaker in a secondary role.

This approach has advantages in terms of healing any damaged trebs as well. When the SoD moves on to the next castle the damaged CR2 trebs can heal under a Medic3 GG (healing requires they don't move or bombard) while the accuracy cats and undamaged trebs bombard the defences. If accuracy trebs were used they would have to decide between healing and helping bombard (and staying damaged).

 

[Skallagrimson]

When I've got a stack in enemy land, by that time I'm usually not facing an enemy stack large enough to worry about having to collateral them down. That's because the first phase of my wars I fight their stacks on my land to give them WW for killing I'd have to do sooner or later anyway. Seldom ever am I disappointed when hanging back hoping the AI will bring something for me to slaughter. When they do, that's when the cats go at it (and horse units for mop-up), and then after all that, my turn to go city raiding. Wars take a little longer that way but the reduced WW means I can keep at it until all there is left of Julius Caesar's praetorian factories are black dirt and salt. And I can stop worrying about reprise attacks later on and focus on whatever crazy mess Alexander will have up his sleeve once somebody gives him ivory out of sheer stupidity.

 

[CivCorpse]

That is all well and good in your particular game where you might not need to build a balanced force of cats (for counter attack in the field) and trebs (for city assualt). In general, if the AI has decent sized stacks, it is better to have a 50- 50 split between cats and trebs in your SoD to deal with his main army. I agree the ability to reduce castle defences in one or two rounds is very desireable and I usually manage to put togther a SoD that can do that. Your game is interesting and amusing but surely you're not suggesting that is the best way to play?

The accuracy promotion adds the same amount of bombard ability to trebs as it does to cats. Against a castle a cat reduces the defence by 2% and with accuracy that becomes 4%. A treb reduces the same target by 4% and with accuracy that becomes 6%, so the promotion adds +2% to both units.

The point I made in my last post, which contradicts your assertion was, assuming you have a balanced mix of trebs and cats then it makes sense to give accuracy promotions to cats and to specialise your trebs for assualt. A cat with barrage and accuracy is not much worse for its main role of suiciding into a field army than one with barrage2, yet its secondary role of bombarding is doubled. A treb with CR1 and accuracy is much worse at its main role of assualting a city than a CR2 treb. So the best way to distribute the accuracy promotions is on cats and keep your trebs pure. An accuracy treb is a unit designed purely for bombarding and is much weaker in a secondary role.

This approach has advantages in terms of healing any damaged trebs as well. When the SoD moves on to the next castle the damaged CR2 trebs can heal under a Medic3 GG (healing requires they don't move or bombard) while the accuracy cats and undamaged trebs bombard the defences. If accuracy trebs were used they would have to decide between healing and helping bombard (and staying damaged).

The problem barrage/accuracy cats lies in that if you use them in the field they tend to die. I have found that cats that die are not very useful for bombarding defenses. The accutrebs in my army never attack. They are only used for taking down city defenses. Since I bring enormous amounts of siege with me for a war, the trebs damaged in a previous assault can heal as you mentioned while another group attacks. With sufficient siege units it doesn't matter what units you use to actually kill the defenders as they are redlined at 15% strength from the direct damage of the trebs. The majority of non siege units in my army are CG garrison units. They do perfectly well killing the defenders as do stack defenders. Though I prefer to have a small group of units promoted along the combat line to C3/march. Usually x-bows and pikes. These units can pop away from the main stack to deal with the occasional sneaky cat creeping along to atack my stack.

 

[UncleJJ]

The problem barrage/accuracy cats lies in that if you use them in the field they tend to die. I have found that cats that die are not very useful for bombarding defenses. The accutrebs in my army never attack. They are only used for taking down city defenses.

I don't understand your attitude to catapults. Do you use them on enemy stacks outside cities? I have found them essential in certain circumstances to give my other troops a chance, otherwise I get horrible casualities in my other troops. Using cats against anything better than axemen / spears will mean that the first few do die but they inflict damage on their defender and collateral damage on the stack. As with trebs versus cities once a few cats have been used the later ones stand a much better chance of surviving. That is the point and their most important role. I consider them sacrifical but only use them when it is required.

Since my SoD has a group of cats for that primary role they may as well be useful in seiges as well. Hence the accuracy promotion for them. That gives them a secondary role and make them a cost effective unit. On the otherhand your accuracy trebs are specialist bombardiers giving 6% versus a castle defence and you pay 80 hammers for them. I can afford to build 2 cats for 100 hammers and get 8% versus the castle and also have 2 sacrificial units for field combat (if needed) whereas you have none It seems to me that your accuracy trebs are a waste of effort and restrict your options in field battles.

 

[kristopherb]

What about attaching a GG to a treb?

That whould be intresting
CIty raider 1,2,3 Tactics Barage How many more?

 

[CivCorpse]

I don't understand your attitude to catapults. Do you use them on enemy stacks outside cities? I have found them essential in certain circumstances to give my other troops a chance, otherwise I get horrible casualities in my other troops. Using cats against anything better than axemen / spears will mean that the first few do die but they inflict damage on their defender and collateral damage on the stack. As with trebs versus cities once a few cats have been used the later ones stand a much better chance of surviving. That is the point and their most important role. I consider them sacrifical but only use them when it is required.

Since my SoD has a group of cats for that primary role they may as well be useful in seiges as well. Hence the accuracy promotion for them. That gives them a secondary role and make them a cost effective unit. On the otherhand your accuracy trebs are specialist bombardiers giving 6% versus a castle defence and you pay 80 hammers for them. I can afford to build 2 cats for 100 hammers and get 8% versus the castle and also have 2 sacrificial units for field combat (if needed) whereas you have none It seems to me that your accuracy trebs are a waste of effort and restrict your options in field battles.

After scouting the enemy before a war if i determine that there is a S.O.D. i will have to deal with i will build some cats. They get barrage1 then barrage2 if they survive. Once trebs are avialable, the enemy should have maces and such so the odds of a cat surviving are pretty slim. Especially once knights appear. I have found it more effective to take a small border city and let the AI retake it with it's SOD then massacre them with my own city taking SOD.
I tend to specialize my units like i do my cities. Each has it's purpose. I admit I tend to build massive stacks when preparing an invasion. If i find myself on the receiving end of a DOW i will whip some cats for collateral purposes but i anticipate losing them so i do not count on them being there when i need city defenses lowered. Same thing with cannons. Bombarding cannons get accuracy and never attack, collateral cannons get barrage and city attackers get CR.

 

[cripp7]

That whould be intresting
CIty raider 1,2,3 Tactics Barage How many more?

I did that on my last game, took on everything without dying. Good combo, wish he'd gotten more xp. Attached to a cannon, should've done a treb.

Spoiler :

 

[Skallagrimson]

It's kinda risky GGing a siege unit, IMO, if you intend to use him in actual assaults. I've seen protective LBs on hills beat a CRII cannon, many times.