Change defensive pacts, please!

[Barghaest]

There may not a message going across the screen of the Defensive pact.But I am pretty sure I have seen the AI wait till my defense pacts are up to attack me.That is why I like to stagger them .I try to stagger them about ten turns apart to give me a little breathing room to think of my next moves.

That's more an issue where AI is aware of things players are not. Like the fact when they recommend locations for new cities they take into account resources not yet revealed (so AI tend to settle cities in good spots for the future where players can't see those hidden resources when making their choices). AI also knows your pointy stick rating without having a scout viewing all your units while players have to "guesstimate" what they can't see (like promotions) unless said AI is first or last in Demographics or you've just gotten one of the turn popups regarding it.

Players don't get messages when other AI form Defensive Pacts (and I'm not sure they show up on Diplomatic Overview either).

 

[qemist]

How useful are defensive pacts? I have defensive pacts with byz and jap. Morocco and eng DoW me. Next turn jap is at war with eng only and byz isn't at war with anyone. Huh?

 

[Barghaest]

Did Byzantium just make peace with England recently? If they're within the enforced Peace Treaty duration maybe they couldn't DoW for the DP.... and the issue with DPs is they terminate on the first reflexive DoW, so if someone gets attacked by multiple opponents, usually the DP triggers on just one (issue with the coding in my opinion.. they should remain in effect until the entire turn is over instead of instantly being broken).

As for how useful they are... not very outside of Multiplayer. As fickle as the AI can be they'll lead to unintended backstabbing quite often in games against AI so I seldom bother with them anymore.

 

[qemist]

Did Byzantium just make peace with England recently? If they're within the enforced Peace Treaty duration maybe they couldn't DoW for the DP.

Nah, in my experience DP trumps peace treaty. I have gone back to war the turn after a peace treaty when they DOWed someone I had a DP with.

From what I have read here the way it is broken is this: being attacked not only activates the DP but cancels the DP and any other DPs you have. It doesn't see the DOWs as simultaneous, so eng DoWs me and Jap declares war on eng. I am at war so my DPs with jap and byz are cancelled. When morocco DoWs the game thinks I have no defensive pacts.

... and the issue with DPs is they terminate on the first reflexive DoW, so if someone gets attacked by multiple opponents, usually the DP triggers on just one (issue with the coding in my opinion.. they should remain in effect until the entire turn is over instead of instantly being broken).

Alright, so you knew that already.

As for how useful they are... not very outside of Multiplayer. As fickle as the AI can be they'll lead to unintended backstabbing quite often in games against AI so I seldom bother with them anymore.

One use is to DoW without penalty. Want to DoW civ A? DP with B then pay A to attack them.

 

[Browd]

Why do you assume there is no penalty for your DP-triggered auto-DOW of civ A?

 

[qemist]

Why do you assume there is no penalty for your DP-triggered auto-DOW of civ A?

I dunno. If you know whether there is a penalty, would you let us in on the secret?

 

[Browd]

I don't use DPs (just curious), so I haven't delved into that code myself, but others have done fine work there and reported their analysis in other threads.

 

[qemist]

I don't use DPs (just curious), so I haven't delved into that code myself, but others have done fine work there and reported their analysis in other threads.

Ever the helpful mod, eh?

Searching I find that the person forced to DoW by a DP appears to get a WM penalty. That is counter-intuitive but fits with DPs being non-public (which doesn't make sense either).

DPs should be be public (so the attacker knows what he's getting himself in for) and the defenders shouldn't get a WM penalty. The devs don't seem to understand DPs. They are a mutual defense agreement, not a promise to play nice with everyone else.

 

[apocalypse105]

The problem with defencive pacts it doesn't show that you have one.

So the AI doesn't know you have a defensive pact with a leader and will dow anwyway.


It should be like civ 4 where the AI can see a defensive pact and consider if he wants to dow the person and you?


Olso defensive pacts offer no diplomatic boost which is wierd

 

[Callonia]

The fact that defensive pacts is secret do makes sense considering all the situations I had with defensive pacts in the past. I just don't care that much, well maybe the first time it led to WW1 in civ 4 long time ago, but after that.. I rolled with the punches.

It's much better to use defensive pacts in civ 5 preferably only with one friend that you have declared friendship with and then signed a defensive pact with. And then don't DoF anyone else. No diplomatic quagmires to wade through.

Oh and happy new year!