Chief Justice Appointment

[Chieftess]

As acting President, as there's none elected yet, this is a call for the Chief Justice position. Contact me if you wish to be a Chief Justice.

 

[Strider]

Only the President can appoint a Chief Justice, but we have no president. So only the Secretary of State can appoint a president, however, only if the office is vacant, which it isn't technically defined by law as vacant. So we need a judicial review on the matter, but we still don't have a Chief Justice.

It's one big circle.

Regardless, you only have the power to appoint a president, if the office is vacant. You are not acting president, and don't have the power to appoint a Chief Justice.

Unless of course, we get a Judicial Review to say otherwise.

 

[Swissempire]

Actually Cheiftess is the President until the run-off is finished, so yes in her tenure, she could appoint a cheif justice. She could also fire Robboo, step down, and leave me to take over all reponsiblities of the Triumvirate!

 

[Strider]

Actually Cheiftess is the President until the run-off is finished, so yes in her tenure, she could appoint a cheif justice. She could also fire Robboo, step down, and leave me to take over all reponsiblities of the Triumvirate!

It doesn't say anything about the Secretary of State taking over the Presidents duties, it only says that the Secretary of State can appoint a president if the poistion is vacant. That is not taking over the powers of the presidency.

As I said, only a Judicial review could decide it.

 

[Curufinwe]

Though the dispute itself is whether or not the presidency has been chosen, and in the absence of a decision either way then it would be highly quesitonable as to a potential ex-president to seek to exercise the powers of an office which may not be theirs. Of course I trust Chieftess to make a good decision, but she must be careful.

 

[donsig]

Only the President can appoint a Chief Justice, but we have no president. So only the Secretary of State can appoint a president, however, only if the office is vacant, which it isn't technically defined by law as vacant. So we need a judicial review on the matter, but we still don't have a Chief Justice.

It's one big circle.

Regardless, you only have the power to appoint a president, if the office is vacant. You are not acting president, and don't have the power to appoint a Chief Justice.

Unless of course, we get a Judicial Review to say otherwise.

The law is quite clear Strider. If there is no president the Secretary of State assumes presidential duties. Therefore the current Secretary of State does have the legal authority to appoint a CJ.

 

[Strider]

The law is quite clear Strider. If there is no president the Secretary of State assumes presidential duties. Therefore the current Secretary of State does have the legal authority to appoint a CJ.

The only thing I see on president vacancy's is the following:

If there is a Vacancy in the Triumvirate, the President shall nominate a citizen to that office. If the Presidency is Vacant, the Secretary of State, or Secretary of War if the Secretary of State is also Vacant, shall nominate a citizen to that office. The citizen must accept the nomination prior any further steps.
b. The Judiciary shall confirm the appointment. If confirmed, the citizen takes office immediately. If not confirmed, a different citizen must be nominated.

I says only that the Secretary of State "shall nominate a citizen to that office." It doesn't say anywhere that the assume the duties of the president. Unless that little bit is in some place I haven't seen yet.

Of course, it may be interpreted that they do, but that would again.. as I said, call for a Judicial Review.

 

[robboo]

She could also fire Robboo, step down, and leave me to take over all reponsiblities of the Triumvirate!

Swiss....HEY now..dont drag firing me into this. You could only take over if you had multiple personalities...like at least 3.

Cheiftess.....How about wait till the runoff election before nominating a CJ. The runoff is the prescibed law for this situation.

Strider...If you would not have started the co-president talk no one would have called for a CJ to be appointed.

 

[ravensfire]

Folks - let's calm down and relax. In two days, the runoff poll will be completed, and we'll hopefully have a President and all of this will go away.

Until then, I advocate that we do nothing on this matter.

-- Ravensfire

 

[donsig]

Folks - let's calm down and relax. In two days, the runoff poll will be completed, and we'll hopefully have a President and all of this will go away.

Until then, I advocate that we do nothing on this matter.

-- Ravensfire

And if the run-off results in another tie, then can we go back to getting excited again? After using the bench for taking long naps during term two I welcome a little legal discussion.

Section I.B.IV.IVB:

IVB. Should a vacancy occur in the Triumvirate the President shall take over the duties of the vacant office. Should the Presidency be the vacant office the Secretary of State shall take over the duties of the President. Should both the offices of President and Secretary of State be vacant the Secretary of War shall take over the duties of both offices. Should the entire Triumvirate be vacant the most senior of the Cabinet members shall take over the duties of Triumvirate until a special election can be held.

This clause clearly gives the Secretary of State authority to act as president when the Presidency is vacant. Given the possibility of a tied run-off election requiring yet another run-off election, the Secretary of State should begin filling the role of president now, performing anything needed. Under the circumstances I'd say we need a CJ so let's not wait. The call has been duly made. Those interested in being CJ should contact Chieftess. That way, if the run-off ends in another tie she can appoint a CJ. If the run-off produces a bonafide president then he can either re-issure the call or CT can forward the list of interested citizens.

 

[Strider]

And if the run-off results in another tie, then can we go back to getting excited again? After using the bench for taking long naps during term two I welcome a little legal discussion.

Section I.B.IV.IVB:

IVB. Should a vacancy occur in the Triumvirate the President shall take over the duties of the vacant office. Should the Presidency be the vacant office the Secretary of State shall take over the duties of the President. Should both the offices of President and Secretary of State be vacant the Secretary of War shall take over the duties of both offices. Should the entire Triumvirate be vacant the most senior of the Cabinet members shall take over the duties of Triumvirate until a special election can be held.

This clause clearly gives the Secretary of State authority to act as president when the Presidency is vacant. Given the possibility of a tied run-off election requiring yet another run-off election, the Secretary of State should begin filling the role of president now, performing anything needed. Under the circumstances I'd say we need a CJ so let's not wait. The call has been duly made. Those interested in being CJ should contact Chieftess. That way, if the run-off ends in another tie she can appoint a CJ. If the run-off produces a bonafide president then he can either re-issure the call or CT can forward the list of interested citizens.

Which leads me to wondering why the hell we have two sections of the code of laws that deal with vacancies, both of which say two entirely differant things on the same issues.

Section 8 also deals with vacancies, and often comes into direct conflict with section 3 B. IVB.

 

[donsig]

Which leads me to wondering why the hell we have two sections of the code of laws that deal with vacancies, both of which say two entirely differant things on the same issues.

Section 8 also deals with vacancies, and often comes into direct conflict with section 3 B. IVB.

I don't write the laws, I only interpret them. Not sure if I see the conflict you're talking about. Section 8 was amended and IIRC the amendment did affect various other sections. There seems to be no trace of this in the currently posted code of laws. I can only go by what is actually written down in the law books. Maybe when we get that new-fangled alphabet we'll be able to write down our laws in a more organized fashion.

 

[Strider]

I don't write the laws, I only interpret what they mean. Not sure if I see the conflict you're talking about. Section 8 was amended and IIRC the amendment did affect various other sections. There seems to be no trace of this in the currently posted code of laws. I can only go by what is actually written down in the law books. Maybe when we get that new-fangled alphabet we'll be able to write down our laws in a more organized fashion.

The amended Section 8 is in a post below the 'normal' Code of Laws. I'll grab a link:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3692206&postcount=6

The "updated" sections and "other modifications" however, are missing.

 

[ravensfire]

To quote from the revised section:

I. A Vacancy occurs when an office is empty due to the office holder resigning, judicial action, impeachment, if no citizen ran for election for that office or when a new office is created.

The election has not finished; there is no vacancy.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Nobody]

A term 3 court has been set up, based on the notion the Sec state cheiftess using the powers of President appionted me also i got sent a JR so i thought i better open a court. If there are any problems i think a JR could work out if my appiontment was legal and if it isnt i will stand down.

 

[donsig]

A term 3 court has been set up, based on the notion the Sec state cheiftess using the powers of President appionted me also i got sent a JR so i thought i better open a court. If there are any problems i think a JR could work out if my appiontment was legal and if it isnt i will stand down.

The law is quite specific that the president must request interested citizens to contact himn or her. If no one is interested then, after 72 hours, the president can appoint someone. This is from the revised section 8. Your appointment was made before any such request was made which means your appointment was not made according to established procedure.

 

[GeorgeOP]

This is the CoL amendment I co-wrote and co-sponsored.

a. If there is a Vacancy in the Triumvirate, the President shall nominate a citizen to that office. If the Presidency is Vacant, the Secretary of State, or Secretary of War if the Secretary of State is also Vacant, shall nominate a citizen to that office.
c. This appointment may not be challenged by a confirmation poll.

V. Judicial Vacancies
a. The President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
b. This appointment may be challenged by a confirmation poll.

The first question we must decide is whether Chieftess is currently President.

 

[donsig]

This is the CoL amendment I co-wrote and co-sponsored.

...

The first question we must decide is whether Chieftess is currently President.

Thank you for the link GeorgeOP. It shows that our currently posted CoL is not entirely up to date.

Chieftess is certainly not President. She is secretary of State. Under a (now deleted) clause of our CoL the Secretary of State assumed the duties of the presidency if the office of the presidency was vacant. The current version of the CoL (the most recent amended version, not the actual posted version) is mute on the issue of the assumption of presidential duties. In looking over the discussions behind the section 8 amendment it appears the changes were made in an effort to prevent a citizen from holding more than one cabinent position. The triumvirate was barely even touched on in the discussion and the clause about assuming the presidential duties was deleted in the subsequent merger. In any event the current form of the CoL does not prohibit the assumption of presidential duties so an argument can still be made for it under our existing laws. Unfortunately the proper way to resolve the issue would be a judicial review but the judiciary lacks a CJ.

nobody has been appointed by Chieftess but the appointment did not follow the procedure outlined in section 8 and has been formally disputed. If we accept ravensfire's argument that the presidential election is not over and therefore the office of president is not vacant then there is no legal basis for Chieftess to appoint a CJ. If we assume the deletion of the clause authorizing the Secretary of State to assume presidential duties means the Secretary cannot assume such duties then there is no legal basis for nobody's appointment. Unless the JA and PD can get the judiciary moving we cannot get a JR just yet.

So we wait until the run-off is over (or do we, since Strider withdrew?), then wait till the President formally and properly appoints a CJ then we get some JRs going. in the mean time we can discuss another amendment to deal with the interum betweenthe end of a term and the finalaization of any run-off elections.

But first I say we find the guy responsible for making sure the current version of the CoL is posted and string him up for dereliction of duty. Should prove to be an interesting pass time while we await the installation of a Pres and CJ.

 

[Curufinwe]

If Strider withdrew then the results of the poll are moot, since he already pre-determined its outcome. That is, unless there is some way of forcing him to accept him winning, if that were to happen, which he could then immediately resign from, therefore always leading back to the same outcome. Waiting for polls to close and such is pointless legalism.

 

[robboo]

I think we might need to add a clause that the CJ from prior term is CJ until such time as his replacement is named. That would have prevented this.

Same thing can be said for Censor..we couldnt validate any elections if we had the censor in a runoff correct?