China steps up preparation for conflict with USA

[10Seven]

Farout, that's a pretty sweeping statement did it have something to do with Communism?

Surely it wasn't the fractictious nature of then Chinese politics which meant that China had, essentially been in a state of civil war, and the technological advantage that saw thousands of peasants slaughtered by professional European soldiers?

 

[Dann]

Originally posted by samildanach
In actual fact it was often not down to choice. And also the Chinese have been the leading power in the world in relatively recent times. By the 1830s the mighty British empire had a massive trade deficit to China and were being outperformed in many key economic areas. Of course, for us Brits this wouldn't do so we decided to even up the trade a little by selling them drugs.

Thank you for posting information about the Opium Wars. If I were the one who posted that people might think I'm a fanatical nationalist resurrecting old hatreds.
The 1800s were a dark period for China. The Qing government was pompous, corrupt and blind to the outside world. Refusing to acknowlede that it has fallen behind terribly in technology and needed reforms in order to compete. Lin Ze Xui did the morally right thing, but China then was simply too weak militarily. Might makes right, as always.

Originally posted by samildanach
hopefully the Chinese remember this episode from their past before they think of tangling with U.S.A.

You have no idea HOW they remember that. This episode, plus all the other humiliations suffered from Japan and the rest of the Western colonial powers then, is burned into the collective memory of the Chinese race as a lesson: "NEVER AGAIN!"
That is why we're working so hard to catch up. That is why everyone seems to be in such a hurry to make more money. That is why there are more engineering graduates here than law graduates. That is why there's tons of research being done and continuous efforts to improve the military. All these just so there won't be any more repeats of past national tragedies.
And nobody would be stupid enough to tangle with the USA. That would be like "trying to break a rock using an egg".
What I find puzzling is this seeming attitude of "We're stronger than you so we have the right to bully you around. Oh and you're not allowed to try to improve yourself too" mentality. Was this your point? Or did I read you wrong?

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

From the Chinese point-of-view, it is obvious why a policy based on might, and not giving an inch to foreigners would appear right.

 

[samildanach]

Originally posted by Dann

You have no idea HOW they remember that. This episode, plus all the other humiliations suffered from Japan and the rest of the Western colonial powers then, is burned into the collective memory of the Chinese race as a lesson: "NEVER AGAIN!"
That is why we're working so hard to catch up. That is why everyone seems to be in such a hurry to make more money. That is why there are more engineering graduates here than law graduates. That is why there's tons of research being done and continuous efforts to improve the military. All these just so there won't be any more repeats of past national tragedies.
And nobody would be stupid enough to tangle with the USA. That would be like "trying to break a rock using an egg".
What I find puzzling is this seeming attitude of "We're stronger than you so we have the right to bully you around. Oh and you're not allowed to try to improve yourself too" mentality. Was this your point? Or did I read you wrong?

Well thats good to know that the chinese people know about it because the average Brit sure doesn't
I have some good chinese friends and we have had many animated discussions about the nature of the U.Ks and China relationship with America. It seems to me that they have forgotten past humilaitions and every incident involving China and the U.S.A is a matter of honour where the goal is not to lose face. Rather in my view when dealing with the United states the object should be to make money above all else.
I always counsel patience to my friends but they seem to wish that China was more confrontational and when I tell them that they should follow Britains fine example they say "poodle!"
Prior to the opium wars and even prior to the U.K beginning to grow opium in India for export to China there were opportuinities for China to control the situation and fob Britain off - they did not and I think it was because their sense of honour was getting in the way of making the prudent decision.
I don't have a problem with the chinese people improving themselves - I would just be more comfortable if I was certain one of the improvements were economic expediency before honour.

 

[10Seven]

As to improving...

I still say China has shown no sign of relinquishing an imperialistic bent.

Recent events and statements support this, I feel.

Thus, I have concern for China The Emerging, due to it's history and ongoing rhetoric as to domination of others.

 

[Dann]

Originally posted by samildanach
I have some good chinese friends and we have had many animated discussions about the nature of the U.Ks and China relationship with America. It seems to me that they have forgotten past humilaitions and every incident involving China and the U.S.A is a matter of honour where the goal is not to lose face. Rather in my view when dealing with the United states the object should be to make money above all else.

The US treated China better than the others during the worst periods of colonialism. Thus less painful memories from that era.
As for the recent past, the communists resented the US for aiding Chiang Kai Shek in the civil war, and for the Korean War. The nationalists on Taiwan simply loved the Americans from day 1. Nowadays, however, stuff like this doesn't matter anymore. People on both sides of the strait eat at McDonalds and KFC and listen to Britney.

Originally posted by samildanach
Prior to the opium wars and even prior to the U.K beginning to grow opium in India for export to China there were opportuinities for China to control the situation and fob Britain off - they did not and I think it was because their sense of honour was getting in the way of making the prudent decision.

No I'm afraid it was already too late by then. In the 1700s maybe. By the 1800s the Chinese government was already stagnant and the local officials horribly corrupt. If it had chosen to reform then, before Japan did, things might have turned out differently.

Originally posted by samildanach
I always counsel patience to my friends but they seem to wish that China was more confrontational.

Well I certainly don't wish that. Our image is mistakenly perceived as threatening enough as it is. What we need now is more friends and allies. (And business partners.)

 

[allhailIndia]

China maybe imperialistic, but it is not exactly surrounded by weak,small,nations, waiting to be conquered.

Only the very very foolish will try to invade Vietnam and Korea for occupation again, knowing these peoples stomach for a resistance to the end. So also, crossing the Yalu river against Russia may not be a very wise move either. The mountains of the Himalayas, unlike in 1962, are defended by some of the best mountain divisions in the world (yes the Americans come to train with us) and the jungles of South East Asia are littered with the remains of innumerable conquerors attempting to rule that land. Oh and the Japanese are no pushovers either.

So if China wants to get "imperialistic", it has to be an empire of trade and goods, not much more

 

[silver 2039]

Originally posted by allhailIndia
China maybe imperialistic, but it is not exactly surrounded by weak,small,nations, waiting to be conquered.

Only the very very foolish will try to invade Vietnam and Korea for occupation again, knowing these peoples stomach for a resistance to the end. So also, crossing the Yalu river against Russia may not be a very wise move either. The mountains of the Himalayas, unlike in 1962, are defended by some of the best mountain divisions in the world (yes the Americans come to train with us) the

Gurkhas :soldier: :soldier: :tank: :tank:

 

[RedAlert]

Ah, China- shmina!

Bring on the European Union!


And while US and China duke it out, Canada can flex her military muscles

 

[silver 2039]

Originally posted by RedAlert
Ah, China- shmina!

Bring on the European Union!


And while US and China duke it out, Canada can flex her military muscles

What military muscle?

 

[RedAlert]

Originally posted by silver 2039
What military muscle?

THIS ONE! MUUHHHAAAA!!!


*rolls entire Canadian military into Silver 2039's house:
1 german WWII tank
1 helicopter that needs refuling every hour
1 submarine that won't sink, and
1 spearman!*

*the canadians suffer heavy losses, but the spearman saves the day driving off tanks front and back*


Hehe, I was just kidding anyway, lol!

Although the European Union is still cool!

 

[silver 2039]

Originally posted by RedAlert
THIS ONE! MUUHHHAAAA!!!


*rolls entire Canadian military into Silver 2039's house:
1 german WWII tank
1 helicopter that needs refuling every hour
1 submarine that won't sink, and
1 spearman!*

*the canadians suffer heavy losses, but the spearman saves the day driving off tanks front and back*


Hehe, I was just kidding anyway, lol!

Although the European Union is still cool!

To send the Canadian miltary to my house they'd have to travel a good 20,000 miles

 

[RedAlert]

Originally posted by silver 2039
To send the Canadian miltary to my house they'd have to travel a good 20,000 miles

Well that's what we got the submarine and the helicopter for!

although a suprise attack would be out of the question.

Never fear, we'll be here!

Besides, remember the miracles of modern transportation?

 

[The Commander]

Originally posted by Alvaro da Luna
I know I'll probably be forever hated for this but... China has a much richer and longer history and a far greater civilization than that of the U.S.A. Even when compared to the relatively miniscule civilization of Europe, the U.S.A. is a dwarf. So in a fight, I'd prefer the Chinese civilization to win. The Americans have been the greatest introducers of new technology, but there is hardly anything culturaly refined or sophisticated about that. It is, to be honest, quite short of romantic.

What the hell... what kind of moron are you? Oops, gotta watch the temper there, but seriousely, what kind of whacko would favor the country that's been around longer and has older art and crap when they trample human rights and basic freedoms? Have you been completely brainwashed or are yo ujoking?

So what if the United States has only been around 215 years, our culture dominates the globe for the most part and we still allow people tons of personal and politcal freedoms while maintaining a free market.

If you honestly would prefer the Chinese win because they've been around longer and have more history, completely ignoring all logic and reason, well, there's nothing i can say to you that won't get me banned, so i'm just not gonna say anything.

 

[10Seven]

"our culture dominates the globe for the most part and we still allow people tons of personal and politcal freedoms while maintaining a free market"

If you're speaking from within the USA, such a statement doesn't appear surprising, but, I think you will find, that the attitude outside of the USA to be QUITE different on all points. Perhaps not so much, the latter points, as to China, but they, certainly, with regard to many other nations.

Personal and political freedom in the USA appears to be increasinly perceived as something more myth than fact. And the free market equally, if not more so... USA is still one of the more protected economies in the world, and tariffs/economic sanctions have been used against nations that refused to blindly follow the 'war on terror' but, instead, desired a more proven case, or international consensus.

 

[The Commander]

I was talking about AMerican corporations dominating the world, all of our products and technology, nothing having to do with teh war on terror, not quite sure how you got there.

And exactly how the heck do you figure we have so few personal and political freedoms? Sure we have strict drug laws, but so what? Are you one of the guys scared by the Patrio Act? What exactly are you talking about? (just curious)

And i also don't care much for the opinions of all the AMerica-bashers outside of AMerica, even if they do agree on the latter point.

 

[10Seven]

We got to the war on terror because of your assertion as to free economy - I think I can see how you might have overlooked that since it seems you've suddenly jumped on the 'anti-american' angry horse??? Perhaps it wasn't the best comparison to draw - only that the issue as to personal and economic freedom seemed linked to the use of tariffs as a sanction against 'uncooperative' nations...

The Patriot Act is central to the issue, but not key - my assertion was based on the appearance as to a global opinion - I travel a lot - on personal and economic freedom in the USA.

I get your point about US corporations, and agree to a degree, but not quite to the extent - as I think European corporations probably share an approximately equal dominance.

But to 'free-trade' the USA still remains one of the most closed economies in this respect. It could, certainly, not be ranked in the top five most open...

 

[Ebitdadada]

Originally posted by 10Seven

Personal and political freedom in the USA appears to be increasinly perceived as something more myth than fact. And the free market equally, if not more so... USA is still one of the more protected economies in the world, and tariffs/economic sanctions have been used against nations that refused to blindly follow the 'war on terror' but, instead, desired a more proven case, or international consensus.

Now while I agree with you arguing with the person you are arguing with, (Well kind of, he/she has a point but isn't making it very well.) The bit about the US being one of the more protected ecomomies in the world is just plain wrong. Actually since 1950 or so, the US has been one of the least protectionist in the world so I'm not sure how still applies either. Look at US tariffs v. average rest of world tariffs, foreign investment laws, non-tariff bariers, impartiality of regulatory authorities, subsidies and any other indicater you can think of. Might have a hard time proving the US is amoung the more protecionist in the world. The US does some stupid protectionst crap (Steel Tariffs) but the thing is other countries do the same crap, they just don't make the news.

Also, I'm sure the Patriot Act is horrible and all but it won't last 5 years. Non-Americans seem to mistake short run whims in the US for long term trends.

 

[allhailIndia]

About personal freedoms, though they are under attack, I believe Americans enjoy more freedom than most others in the world.

As far as economy goes, it really depends on where you are and what the American cos. have done in your part of the world.

While American cos. are seen as god send in South and Western India, they are still viewed with a lot of suspicion and mistrust, in other parts because of things like the Bhopal gas tragedy and such incidents.

And yes, the American economy, esp in the agricultural sector is still one of the most protected in the world.

 

[Sarevok]

if china wants to blow its cash on guns becauser they think the US will be invade, go ahead. Thats the last thing the US would consider.