Christian v. Catholic

[Knowltok 2]

Perhaps some of you can help me with a question I have.

I know many catholics who bristle if you refer to them as christians. I don't understand this. My thought has always been that Christians are all people who believe in the divinity of Christ. Therefore, catholics, protestants (all different types), and orthodox are all christians. Catholic is just a branch of christianity, right?

Any thoughts or ideas you have will be appreciated.

 

[Vrylakas]

Knowlok 2 wrote: I know many catholics who bristle if you refer to them as christians. I don't understand this. My thought has always been that Christians are all people who believe in the divinity of Christ. Therefore, catholics, protestants (all different types), and orthodox are all christians. Catholic is just a branch of christianity, right?

Knowltok, Roman Catholics are indeed Christians. Yes, Roman Catholicism is one of the many branches of Christianity, Christiantitatus. Some Christian groups claim that only their particular version of Christianity is the true Christian path, but they're Christian nonetheless. I was raised Catholic and we were never refered to as anything but Christian - though often with some qualifier like "True". The only thing I can imagine is that in the U.S. the word "Christian" has been appropriated somewhat by some more radical Christian groups and used interchangably with "Evangelical", so perhaps some of the Catholics you know really think you mean one of these smaller, more radical churches and are telling you that they are not from a Protestant evangelical faith (in the American sense).

Your definition of what constitutes a Christian group walks a fine line; the ultimate divinity of Christ is agreed upon but little else. This is important because while most Western Christian groups view Christ as having been born divine (meaning he was always connected to God), some of the Eastern Christian groups see Christ as having been born purely human, but later having received divinity through the Holy Spirit and God, etc. That's the basis Nikola Kazantzakis wrote his book The Last Temptation of Christ on that so inflamed many Western devout Christians who didn't understand that the story derives from a belief that Christ was first born human. To Western Christian eyes it looks like utter blasphemy, but Kazantzakis was merely showing the human struggles Christ might have experienced. The decision in the West to view Christ as always divine goes back to the Council of Nicaea in the early 4th century, convened by the Roman Emperor Constantinius who wanted to put a halt to the theological feuding that was tearing Christianity apart. He imposed many settlements based often on expediency, politics, or personal likes/dislikes, and the basic nature of Christ was one of these decisions. Some dissidents - mostly among Eastern Christians - still held out that Christ was human, and consequently many Christian faiths today believe that way. Almost nothing else in Christianity is agreed upon by the whole community; the Trinity, the sacraments, the calendar, the Pope/Patriarch/various Exiarchs/Moscow patriarchship, whether Christ meant to emphasize compassion, impending doom, adherance, faithfulness, trustworthiness, etc. - all of these and more can be controversial according to which Christian group you're talking to...

 

[Knowltok 2]

Thanks for the info. I'd always figured that the people who told me that they weren't christian, they were catholic were a bit ignorant on the point.

 

[Paiktis22]

About Kazantzakis, he was a bit of a radical. He was a great, great writer (one of the very best INMHO) but his ideas were not really the norm.

In the Christian Orthodox religion (Greek Orthodox) the Christ is considered the "Theanthropos". That means the "God-Man". His divinity and his mortality are interwoven to eachother. He is both divine and human. Both and neither at the same time.

(phew pretty hard to realize )


The Last Temptation of Christ raised a lot of havoc here in Greece too. (the orthodox church had excomunicated Kazantzakis).


I don't believe in anything. I'm not afraid of anything. I am free.

The scripture at the tomb of Kazantzakis.

 

[kobayashi]

The earliest branches of Christianity are Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox.

Amongst the features of these are Eastern Orthodox believe in the holiness of icons but I am not too familiar with them so I will talk a bit more about catholics.

Catholics also worship saints and Mary (who they believe also ascended into heaven without dying). They also have additional holy books beyond the old and new testament. When they have mass, they beleive the bread and wine actually turn into the flesh and blood of christ. Catholics can mary anyone but they are duty bound to ensure their children are catholics. The also kneel when worshipping and have religious orders which practice various forms of abstinence - like not talking. The cross is always adorned with the body of Christ.

The 'Christians' you are referring to are protestants who came about when a part of Christiandom rebelled against the Church. The Church in those days was quite fanatical like the Muslims of today and there were things like the Spanish Inquisition. In general, the Pope was deemed to be God's representative on Earth and what he said was what god said. So the Earth was the centre of the universe, people like Copernicus and Galelio were silenced and you couldn't eat meat on Fridays etc.

Matin Luther was the leader of the original rebellion and this led to the first Protestant church, the Lutheran Church. Several religious wars occured in Europe thereafter. In general the Protestants do not beleive in having any sculptures of Christ and therefore their cross is one where Christ has already risen (i.e. empty). The old and new testament are the only holy books ...bascially the opposite of what I have described under catholics. Most do not use wine in their Mass (which is called Holy Communion instead).

The Church of England (Anglican) is sort of inbetween the two and was formed becasue Henry the Eight wanted to divorce his wife.

John Wesley was an Alglican who wnet over to America where he founded the Methodists. Another prominant denomination under the Protestants are the Baptists.

 

[Caligastia]

Does it really matter what you choose to label yourself as? All religions believe they are the one true one and that they are God's chosen people.

 

[slyvann]

most of the catholics that i know refer to themselves as christians and get very upset when anyone says something otherwise

 

[Knowltok 2]

Kobayashi: Thanks for the history, though I knew most of it already.

Caligastia : Yes people can label themselves whatever they like, but my question was whether they were being correct in the larger sense.


If it wasn't about religion, or if I didn't like these people I'd question them on it when they claim to be catholic, not christian. As it is, I'll have a quiet chuckle to myself and go on about my life.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Obviously, if you ask me, it's a perfectly valid distinction.

No sense in confusing people who want to be Christians, they might accidentally go for Catholicism instead.

Ever listen to Emo Phillips talk about religion?

 

[Blackadder]

There was also (in fact, there still is) a Christian church of Egypt known as the Coptic Church. Though the coming of Islam nearly made it extinct, it is still a christian religion of today. I think that was another of the 'earliest branches of Christianity'.

 

[BigBirdZ28]

I learnt some good stuff .

 

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by kobayashi

Catholics also worship saints and Mary.

Not true. They do not "worship" saints.

They also have additional holy books beyond the old and new testament.

Not true. The catholic and orthodox bibles do however have books which are not included by some protestant groups for obscure historical reasons.

they are duty bound to ensure their children are catholics.

Not true. The obligation is to raise your children with christian values.

They also kneel when worshipping

Not true. There is no obligation to kneel when worshipping.

The cross is always adorned with the body of Christ.

Not true - That's really funny. Where do you get this stuff from? It makes catholics out to be a bunch of freaks.

I won't bother correcting the rest

 

[SunTzu]

I'm a catholic and we are christians.
I do not believe we have other holy books other than the Old and New Testament.
Hardly any catholics are members of religious groups anymore, or atleast catholics in america.
I sure don't practice abstinance
At first i thought this was a catholic bashing thread, i'm tired of the dirty bapitist bashing us catholics.

About the bread and wine, yes that represents Jesus's body and blood, like at the Last Supper.......

 

[knowltok]

At first i thought this was a catholic bashing thread, i'm tired of the dirty bapitist bashing us catholics.

Oh no, that certainly wasn't my intent at all. I'm actually glad to see that I've gotten well thought out responses. I do find it interesting what the different views are on the particulars of the catholic religion though.

 

[scorch]

well, my brother who is hard out christian - brethren, thinks that catholics aren't christian. quote, 'Life FM [christain radio] only plays christain music, no jehovah witness or catholic stuff' enquote.
But then he also thinks that every other form of christainanity, (prespetarian, baptists etc) is wrong as well.

 

[kobayashi]

Let me apologize if I appeared to be siding with one party or the other. In my part of the world I have not come across the concept of 'catholic bashing' and didn't realise that it is a sensative issue. I was merely attempting to describe how the protestants came into being. From a gramatical point of view, it was neccessary to describe what applied to catholics and then go on to describe what protestants were protesting.

In some cases I may have generalised or used some inaccurate 'agnostic' type words and I am attempting to restate everything properly. I have checked various web-sites to give a more detailed and accurate description. Hopefully I am not making things worse.

Bible
I did not mean to imply that there were other books beyond the bible. (i.e. the bible is not a book, it is a collection of books). As pointed out, the correct thing to say is that the Roman Catholic Old Testament has got more than the 39 book in the Protestant versions. The additional books are: Tobit, Judith, Additions to the Book of Esther, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah (sometimes incorporated as the last chapter of Baruch), Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel & the Dragon, I Maccabees and II Maccabees. The Jewish Old Testament does not have these books and it was in 1546 that the Council of Trent decreed that the canon of the O.T. should include them.
When Martin Luther printed his first bible, he included them as well at the back but as time progressed, they were dropped out. There are several other reasons (some of which appear valid to me while others not) there is debate over whether these books are canon as given by this chap here

http://www.daveandangel.com/Library/ApocryphalBooks.html


Praying to Saints
As I understand from these two sites

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070600.htm
http://saints.catholic.org/faq.html#pray

Catholics appear to pray to the Saints, to Mary, as one prays to God. This "praying to" appears to them to indicate a worship of the Saint as if giving to the Saint or Mary what is due to God alone. But this is not the case. Catholics Often ask particular saints to pray for them if they feel they have a particular interest in their problem. For example, many people ask Saint Monica to pray for them if they have trouble with unanswered prayers, because Monica prayed for twenty years for her son to be converted. So in a way the saints relay the message to God.
I suppose it is sufficient to say that catholics believe in saints while protestants don't.

Raising Children
Don't see Alex's Horse point. Some protestants don't seem to mind if their children follow another faith.

Kneeling
I didn't mean they must kneel - just that some do. Some Anglicans do as well. Protestants typically only stand and sit unless they go up to the alter for holy communion.

The cross is always adorned with the body of Christ
From empirical observation, that would seem to be the case to me. I could be wrong. Perhaps the negative of this would be more accurate. The cross of protestants is never adorned with the body of Christ.

Abstinance
Did not mean that it is common, merely that it exists. It is practiced in some other religions as well (again not by the majority)

Finally many other differences are mentioned at this pro-catholic site.

http://www.cc.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/faq-cc.html#q8
or
http://catholicoutlook.com/index.html

and this pro-protestant site

http://www.bible.ca/cath-why-I-left.htm

 

[amadeus]

I'm not Catholic, nor am I religious, but in any religion you've got kinds of "rules" that really nobody follows.

Like not eating meat on Friday... who does that, really?

 

[knowltok3]

Plenty of people. Many catholics do, and then there are the vegetarians.

Keep in mind that not all catholics are like American Catholics. Many people in the world reffer to American Catholics as cafeteria catholics since they just take what they want and leave the rest. Meat on Fridays and birth control are two examples. This doesn't mean that all, or even most American Catholics are this way, but some are, and they have given the group a reputation around the world.

I personally never understood the whole meat thing, especially when fish is allowed. I say, what's the difference? Some vegetarians do this too. They say they are vegetarians, then eat fish. Takes all kinds, I guess.

 

[Daaraa]

The "Additional books" are called the " Apocripha " I really don't think I spelled that right but that is how you say it.

The above explaination is correct about it being included then dropped. As far as I can remember. I looked into this about 5 years ago.

 

[Vrylakas]

Hey guys - take it easy on Kobayashi! He's close to the mark. Knowltok3 (how many Knowltoks are there BTW?) got it right when he said:

Keep in mind that not all catholics are like American Catholics. Many people in the world reffer to American Catholics as cafeteria catholics since they just take what they want and leave the rest. Meat on Fridays and birth control are two examples. This doesn't mean that all, or even most American Catholics are this way, but some are, and they have given the group a reputation around the world.

A lifetime of Polish Catholicism didn't prepare me for what I saw in Italy and Spain - there are local differences and traditions. This is why the Roman Catholic church is so rigid, because it's constantly struggling to maintain uniformity across cultures all over the world. Kobayashi came close on most of his points, not bad for a non-Catholic. And his intent was clearly not to bash Catholicism.

Relax!