De-Christianising Religion

[sTAPler27]

Religion is literally the only civ7 thing announced so far which has been flat out disappointing for me

Its just... the exact same system we've had since civ5 G&K, twelve years ago.

Not to be a downer but if anything it's simpler in some ways. Faith is no longer a resource and religions can never be wiped out

 

[Patine]

This is a very interesting question because it is certainly not proselytysing in the same way Buddhism and Abeahamic religions are, but then you realize that
1) There has never been such "ethnicity" or language as "Indian" (or identity - before late 19th century) so it has always been extremely multicultural, multi-language belief system even within Indian subcontinent, so it had to spread a lot and cross a ton of radical cultural barriers. Including the most radical od them all, the great cultural and linguisitc gap between Indo-Aryans and Dravidans!
2) Hinduism did manage to spread to Indonesia, Malaysia, Khmer and Champa by the early centuries AD and dominate them to the point of shaping royal ideology at the very top of those countries elite. Titanic temples of Angkor Wat and Prambanan were originally Hinduist after all!

It's the same with Confucianism and Taoism - not really proselytysing belief systems, but they did eventually shape daily spiritual practices and beliefs of very diverse people of the entire East Asia plus Vietnam

And, there were the Triumphal Polytheists (and one Dualist) I mentioned, here above:

Manichaeism and Gnosticism were also once big Proselythizing Universalist Religions, often in cooperation after a certain point. Neo-Confucianism and Baha'i could also, from a certain point of view, be seen as such. There was also the phenomenon, distinct, but similar, of Triumphal Spread of Religion, that has been used by Prosetylizing Universalist Religions, but also by a fair number of Polytheist ones, like Olympian Polytheism during the Hellenistic (Alexandrian and Diadochi) Period, Capitoline Jovian Polytheism during the Pre-Christian Roman Empire, the Inti-led Polytheist Religion of the Inca over other Andean Peoples, and Zoroastrianism during the Acheimenid, Parthian, and Sassanid Iranian Empires. In fact, even though the two regions had similar broad religious foundations, each, such Triumphalism was used between States in both Mesopotamia and Mesoamerica to get subdued and tributary vassal states to acknowledge the conqueror's chief deity and religious idiosyncracies.

I would also hope that not all religions or religious denominations have a vested interest in winning the religious victory, so to speak. I mentioned agendas earlier, and for some of religions, those agendas would largely be variations of "make sure proselytes of other faiths don't get near our communities"

But, of course, even such civ's did not usually cling to their ancestral religions indefinitely. By the end of the Exploration Age, historically-speaking, almost every civ had either converted, or been converted, to a Universalist Proselytizing Faith, or tolerated missionary activity and converts to some degree or another.

 

[Krajzen]

But that's not really due to prostheletyzing but just growing how general populations grow.

Which populations? In Java, Cambodia and South India? They took Hinduism because very alien peoples of North India (culturally, linguistically, sociopolitically, spiritually, genetically, even in physical appearance) just grew in population thousands of kilometres away?

Any articles on the indianization of SEA state something roughly similar to those statements: Hinduism arrived to the very alien cultures and languages of SEA via "traders, adventurers, teachers and priests". Khmer king Jayavarman II founded a cult which literally identified the king with the Hindu God Shiva, and Angkor Wat was originally devoted to Vishnu with all its motifs derived from Hinduism and "correctly" applied. You don't get seventh wonder of the medieval world, so to speak, erected in the name of your faith by completely alien people like two thousand kilometres and an ocean away from your furthest boundaries... without some kind of missionary activity. I assume at one point proto-Khmer rulers had to get the entire Vishu, Shiva, Brahman and Upanishad stuff explained to them by some very hard-working priests from India, they couldn't read about it on the Internet and then spawn their own Khmer-speaking Hinduist priests and philosophers ex nihilo

 

[Zaarin]

Yeah but there’s a difference between accepting converts and being universalizing. You can convert to Judaism and be welcomed in but I’ve yet to hear of Rabbis going to public places looking for converts. In fact they’re supposed to push you away at first to make you consider your commitment

Not sure what that has to do with what I said? Also, whether you can convert to Judaism and be welcomed in really has to do with the time, place, and given rabbi. There have certainly been periods (including the present period for certain sects of Judaism) in which converts to Judaism may be allowed to worship but won't be considered Jews--and times and places in which they won't even be allowed to worship. As I said, a complicated relationship.

Religion is literally the only civ7 thing announced so far which has been flat out disappointing for me

Its just... the exact same system we've had since civ5 G&K, twelve years ago.

Worse than the exact same. Everyone having their own religion is the worst possible design choice I can imagine for making a bad system worse.

 

[Patine]

There have certainly been periods (including the present period for certain sects of Judaism) in which converts to Judaism may be allowed to worship but won't be considered Jews--and times and places in which they won't even be allowed to worship. As I said, a complicated relationship.

Would this mean if a woman converts to Judaism, by this notion, she doesn't pass on matrilineal heritage because she's not of the Blood of Jacob?

 

[Zaarin]

Would this mean if a woman converts to Judaism, by this notion, she doesn't pass on matrilineal heritage because she's not of the Blood of Jacob?

Yes. To oversimplify the matter, there have been broadly three stances on the issue of converts and who is a Jew: 1. converts may participate in Jewish rites and community, but they are not Jews nor are their children Jews; 2. same as 1, but a convert may marry a Jewish woman and their children will be Jews; 3. converts are Jews (oh, and 4. you're born a Jew or you're not a Jew and may not become a Jew and may not participate in Jewish rites and community). I think #2 is the official stance of the rabbinic council in Israel, #1 is the stance of most Orthodox communities, and #3 is the stance of some of the more liberal sects. #4 is historically the stance of the Karaites and ultra-Orthodox.

 

[sTAPler27]

Which populations? In Java, Cambodia and South India? They took Hinduism because very alien peoples of North India (culturally, linguistically, sociopolitically, spiritually, genetically, even in physical appearance) just grew in population thousands of kilometres away?


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Any articles on the indianization of SEA state something roughly similar to those statements: Hinduism arrived to the very alien cultures and languages of SEA via "traders, adventurers, teachers and priests". Khmer king Jayavarman II founded a cult which literally identified the king with the Hindu God Shiva, and Angkor Wat was originally devoted to Vishnu with all its motifs derived from Hinduism and "correctly" applied. You don't get seventh wonder of the medieval world, so to speak, erected in the name of your faith by completely alien people like two thousand kilometres and an ocean away from your furthest boundaries... without some kind of missionary activity. I assume at one point proto-Khmer rulers had to get the entire Vishu, Shiva, Brahman and Upanishad stuff explained to them by some very hard-working priests from India, they couldn't read about it on the Internet and then spawn their own Khmer-speaking Hinduist priests and philosophers ex nihilo

There's definitely going to be unique cases in a religion that old but in the places you mentioned Hinduism only makes up a small fraction of the population. These missions while examples of proselytizing, didn't leave as lasting of an impact, with the majority of the faith's followers being within the region it was founded. Compare this to Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam which have huge population numbers in places far removed from where they were founded with Buddhism taking hold in East Asia and Christianity having the most of its followers in Africa.

 

[civilizationfanatic2000]

1. Randomize which beliefs come with what religion. Again, we're on the theme that religions operate orthogonally to cultures and government

i think there could be more variety in beliefs too. currently all religions are milquetoast. i want to play a villain in civ games. so some religious beliefs should be downright awful. the game shall be good when i can play a fanatically religious nuclear state who's religion encourages industrial warfare.