Chronic restarter needs guidance

[MichelGB448]

I’ve played Civ 3 off and on for a long time, but I always seems to get in the same situation: although I set up a settler farm and usually outexpand the AI, get basic terraforming up, keep at parity or ahead in tech with the other civs on Regent, and can generally rally for an AE war, I end up by the time I switch government with a nagging feeling that I’ve messed everything up and I have no idea what I’m doing. A recent example: I was working on a Regent game with the Babylonians where I had a 4 turn settler factory (and probably expanded way more than I should have), engaged in a successful war that was still kind of like a tactical nightmare (in terms of coordination of my war workers and catapults), and now in the late AE I’m looking at my empire and feeling totally clueless as to what to do! That’s why the title of this post: I almost always find myself restarting games when I reach this point, hoping that when I take the helm of the next civ, things will be different, and of course I end up doing it again, as has crossed my mind already in the game I just described.

I’ve read some of the articles in the war academy, and am reading through a few SG’s, and I’ve come to realize that my planning skills are very weak. I’m kind of an impulsive player I guess, especially when it comes to T-forming, and it seems I’m not entirely sure what I should be doing during a turn, and am not all that successful in my long-term planning either. I was reading in one of the SGs I’m following how some players can spend an hour on a single turn, and that boggles my mind! But I want to be a better player and learn what I should be doing, and the way I should be planning. So with that in mind, (if this question hasn’t been asked a zillion times), what are the kinds of decisions and tasks you set yourselves each and every turn? What do you think are the most important things to keep track of every turn? And how do you think I can improve in the management part of running a civ?


Much appreciated!

 

[ChaosArbiter]

Sorry if this post seems uncoordinated; that's the only way I can help The first thing that I noticed that you probably shouldn't be doing is Ancient Era warfare; it bogs down your expansion and science. You can get away with a couple if they're short, but usually you want to avoid warfare in the AE.

Basically, when you go through your turn, you want to check on Science output (if you find yourself running low on gold, mess with the slider every turn, as once you hit >5 turns, you can spend less on Science for the same amount of work in some cases, getting you more money); work on your infrastructure - road every square a city can use, irrigate plains, mine grasslands, and cut down forests; make sure your cities are building something useful - Wealth is pretty much useless until you hit Economics, as just about anything would be better than that.

The decisions I make on my turns are strategic - what terrain is in my territory, and can I find a certain resource there. For example, if I have no mountains/hills in my territory, and I'm in the mid or late Medieval Age, I know that I need to go conquer someone with a lot of hills to get access to Coal and Iron for railroads. Something I look at every few turns is where the AI is, who they're allied or at war with, and what resources the have and I can trade them.

I hope some of this helps you out; I have a similar problem, though, in that I tend not to finish games once I reach a certain superiority over the AI, not that that's happened much since I went up a difficulty level - which is something you might want to try, if you can. Oh, and the hour-long turns, I don't think those are regular games - I read on one of the topics I lurked that 'succession games' often have hour-long turns where people want to get everything perfect.

 

[RickFGS]

Download this file and read it. It´s all pretty well summed up what´s to know in civ3.

http://www.civfanatics.net/downloads/civ3/reference/bonus_disk_strategies.zip

Also, get Civ Assist II program from downloads and use it.

 

[Aabraxan]

Frankly, I think you should play one out to the end, rather than restarting. I think you're doing better than you seem to believe. Here's why:

. . . . I set up a settler farm and usually outexpand the AI, . . . . get basic terraforming up, . . . . keep at parity or ahead in tech with the other civs on Regent, . . . . I had a 4 turn settler factory (and probably expanded way more than I should have), . . . . engaged in a successful war. . . .AE I’m looking at my empire and feeling totally clueless as to what to do!

Clearly, you know enough to set of a 4-turn SF, wage a successful war in the AA, outexpand the AI, and keep up in tech. Where was the problem, again? As far as AA wars go, I'm a big fan. At least at Monarch and below, AA wars are a good way to weaken your neighbors before they ever really get going, to clear out land for your settlement, get a few techs and, if you're lucky, gather a few slaves to boost your workforce. Granted, you need to keep expanding, but expansion and warfare not mutually exclusive.

what are the kinds of decisions and tasks you set yourselves each and every turn? What do you think are the most important things to keep track of every turn? And how do you think I can improve in the management part of running a civ?

Not to sound glib, but the short answer is: all of it. You need to mind your workers, make sure you're not wasting worker turns. You should check on your citizen assignments and make sure they're working the right tiles. Keep on top of the diplomacy situation, so that you're aware when a trade opportunity arises. Tactically, you should make sure your empire is defended. And the list goes on and on. What is is that you don't think you're planning well? As I stated above, it doesn't look like you're in any danger at the level you're currently playing.

If you want someone around here to look at your game, post a save. That way, some of the CFC denizens can really get a look at what you're doing.

Also, as RickFGs said, get CivAssistII. It's a fine tool for helping you keep track of things.

 

[gmaharriet]

I end up by the time I switch government with a nagging feeling that I’ve messed everything up and I have no idea what I’m doing. A recent example: I was working on a Regent game with the Babylonians where I had a 4 turn settler factory (and probably expanded way more than I should have), engaged in a successful war that was still kind of like a tactical nightmare (in terms of coordination of my war workers and catapults), and now in the late AE I’m looking at my empire and feeling totally clueless as to what to do!

^ Everything Aabraxan said, AND I'm wondering if you know which victory condition you're going for before you begin a game. I find it helps to have a long-term goal to focus on. For example, if you plan to play through to the Modern Age to build a space ship or win the U.N. vote, you try to focus on building for science with libs, unis, specialist farms full of beakerheads and the upper line of the tech tree in the Middle Ages. OTOH, if you're going for a military victory, you focus on the military techs, like Gunpowder and Military Tradition, maybe shutting off research entirely after Steam or Replaceable Parts.

I was reading in one of the SGs I’m following how some players can spend an hour on a single turn, and that boggles my mind! But I want to be a better player and learn what I should be doing, and the way I should be planning. So with that in mind, (if this question hasn’t been asked a zillion times), what are the kinds of decisions and tasks you set yourselves each and every turn? What do you think are the most important things to keep track of every turn? And how do you think I can improve in the management part of running a civ?

Succession games are a great way to learn, especially the TDGs (Training Day Games) where there is lots of discussion about what to do, how to do it, and why. Read anything where Bede is the trainer, and you'll get a lot of tips for staying focused on your goal. Better yet, let him know you'd be interested in joining his next TDG.

 

[Optional]

I think I can kind of understand your confusion, Michel, athough I'm no psychic that can read your mind of course, but Civilization is a game where you 'Found a civilization that can stand the test of time.' How you do that is arbitrary.

My guess is that, when a game like civ gets designed, the designers first focus on the game mechanics, and then later think: 'hmm...what kind of victory conditions can we put in this vehicle?'

I'm also a player who isn't sure what to go for in a game. If you're not focussed on any specific win condition, and you don't specialize in anything specific, you will usually end up heading for a spaceship win, assuming you stay ahead of the AI.

If you can't make a decision on what to go for, I would say: play a research game. Try to maximize the commerce your empire generates, and to stay as close to 4-turn research as you possibly can. That alone involves keeping track of almost every aspect of the game.

 

[Elephantium]

Take a page from succession games and set some goals. Start out by defining which victory condition you'd like to pursue, then start to figure out what you need to do in order to get there.

From the game you described earlier, it sounds like you just need to decide more specifically what you want to do and then go for it.

 

[PaperBeetle]

gmaharriet hits the nail on the head as usual. Whenever I get that looking-at-my-empire-not-knowing-what-its-for feeling, it is because I forgot to choose a victory condition at the start of the game. (edit: x-post with Elephantium )

As for things I do every turn... at the start of the game (at least until 1000bc) I look inside every town on every turn. After 1000bc, I tone it down to just checking inside the towns CivAssistII tells me about (i.e. towns that grew or about to grow). Mostly I don't find anything that warrants me having looked, but occasionally I find a town doing something stupid.

 

[CommandoBob]

I was reading in one of the SGs I’m following how some players can spend an hour on a single turn, and that boggles my mind!

In CBob03: Germans in Tutus we've had some rather long turns, so let me try to un-boggle your mind. I don't know if we are who you had in mind, but I know in this SG we've all be hit with rather long turns and longer turnsets and we've all complained about it. My last turnset I got the game at 130 hours, 33 minutes. I played five turns and passed the game on at 145 hours and 35 minutes. Did I plan on 15 hours to play 5 turns? No way, but that is what happened. Was I aware of how long it took? No, not until just now. I just knew that it took too long to play.

Regarding Succession Games (SGs and SGOTMs)
First, for me anyway, I keep a detailed log of game events on my turns. I take screenshots of important builds (wonders), critical trades, newly captured/lost cities that change hands, which can slow me down. I have Notepad open and almost everything gets reported. To attack a city takes 5 seconds, tops, and the action is over and you either won or lost or ran away. To put that into Notepad takes considerably longer than 5 seconds, even if you copy and paste the last attack, which is not always possible. I've not really tried to track the time; but I would guesstimate that logging an attack takes 4 times as much time as just making the attack.

And the same thing on city production that completes on the IBT. It takes just a second to change from library to university, but in the log you also tend to include the city name and how many turns that university will take. If only a handful of cities finish something it's not too bad. When 20 finish something it can take a while.

But these delays are limited to SGs. In a normal, solo, game they are not a factor.

Regarding Solo Games
Second, a lot of warfare in a turn can make the turn take longer. Even in a solo game, it takes time to get units into place and plan your attacks. Once I get railroads I tend to regroup all the military before I start attacking, and that takes time, too.

Along with this is one of the Preference settings, and I've forgotten which one it was. Single units can move from Point A to Point B along rails and not been seen along the way. It doesn't work this way for a stack of units. Their movement will be shown, tile by tile, along the way. This makes the turn longer, too.

Third, MMing the cities can be a real time killer. In this game we have over 200 cities. Just to scroll through them, stop, eyeball the citizens and tiles they are working and when the city will grow and what it is producing.... even if each one is okay this can take up a lot of time.

Fourth, map size plays a role in turn length. Our landmass is pangea; map size is huge. That means there is just more to do.

Fifth, your style of play makes a difference. I tend to play slow and mull my options while the game clock is ticking.

Sixth, the victory conditions you select will affect your time per turn. Conquering the world, generally, will take more game time than a UN victory. Fewer turns (generally) but more time. With a UN/Space/Cultural victory as the goal, once your empire gets to be 'so big', further expansion will stop and the turns will have less unit movement to manage and will be faster to play.

Seventh, (and last, I think), is how well you want to play that game. If it is just for relaxation, to zone-out from work, family and the world, then playing your best game is just not your goal. And believe me, I've played many a game at Civ on auto-pilot, just going through the motions. But if you're in an SG or a Hall of Fame attempt game, you tend to play a little bit better. You know that what you do will be examined by others. And you don't want to look like a fool before your peers.

In a Nutshell
So, yes, it is possible to spend an hour or more on a turn. And at certain points in a game that might be needed.

However, nothing is preventing you from saving the game mid-turn and walking away from it for a while. I did this more than once. Saved the game at the end of the turn; take a brief break; hit enter and suffer through the IBT, regroup the cultured forces of Germany and then save again and walk away again. Come back, reload the last save, and then proceed to beat the snot out of India, who had declared war on us.

Just because it is a long turn doesn't mean you have spend a long time to play that turn in one setting.

 

[rysingsun]

i'd suggest playing on a harder level. if you actually have to fight for your survival you will learn to plan strategy in a setting that actually has consequences. it sounds to me like you get lost because without the challenge it really doesn't matter a whole lot what you do.

 

[Bede]

@MichelGB448

The situation you describe in your first paragraph is just where you ought to be at that point in the game. That is precisely the time to look around the empire and decide what you want it to be.

If the land you have is commerce heavy - lots of riversides and coast with green fields and commerce generating tile bonuses, then you are set up for a commerce oriented victory - Diplomacy, Space or 20K culture.

If on the other hand the land you have is shield heavy - lots of hills and jungles for crucial strategic resources, then you are set up for a production oriented victory with a high warfare component - Conquest, Domination or 100K culture.

As a third option you can just choose what victory condition you want and manipulate your land and cities to fit that goal. (this is the Invisible Hand so beloved of the Dismal Scientists )


Running a turn breaks down into multiple parts. The game presents you with research decisions first, then production decisions, then unit action decisions, and concurrently with unit actions you can initiate diplomacy, consult the advisors, make diplomatic negotiations, enter the city screens, etc. That is a lot if different things to be doing to complete one turn so having short and long term objectives established will help you sort them out and get through the tasks expeditiously. And frequently there are one or two high priority items that need attention right away yet the game mechanics are such that it doesn't allow you to deal with them at the same time they are presented to you.

So to keep the confusion, at least in my own mind, to a minimum, I try to follow each presentation the game makes with apprioriate action on my part. For example, I will zoom into each city that has a production decision to be made, just to check that the citizen assignments remain as I want them. Then during the unit action phase that follows I will make sure that worker reassignments are done before I make any other unit decisions. This way I don't forget the mental notes I made while looking at city screens during the production phase that a hill needed mining or some such.

Only once I have made all the worker moves will I deal with moving troops or fighting battles. And that only after I have scanned the map for any threats or opportunities that may have emerged during the interturn.

Then I check the diplomacy screens for trade opportunities or peace treaty negotiations.

Then check in with the advisors if there is a piece of information I may be seeking to help plan the next tactical move.

And lastly I check in with the Domestic Advisor for a quick count of unhappy faces.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I often have reasonably long turns in the middle ages and industrial ages, and the reasons are several:

1) War. War turns can take 10 times as long as non-war turns, because you have more to do and more to be careful of. You have to kill the enemy and make sure the enemy can't come in the back door.
2) Trading - this is a time when trade routes are expanding - you can do over seas/oceans trading, more roads are built so you can trade more with the AI, on higher levels, you are catching up to the AI or passing them, so you have to spend more time on that.
3) Civil disorder. War and growth mean that you have to pay close attention to many core cities to ensure that they are happy
4) Improvement. The AA and MA are times when a huge # of improvements show up and the cities are relatively unimproved. You are trying to entrench expansion. You have to decide on build orders and you have to improve the land. You have 50-100 workers going.

And, of course, if you have a larger map, you have a lot more room, thus more micromanagement.

 

[MichelGB448]

Wow, I’m kind of pleasantly overwhelmed with the good suggestions from this post, especially from some of the veteran player’s I’ve seen on the SG board (I’m currently reading the ‘first come, first severed’ TDG for my nighttime reading enjoyment ) I’m going to attach a post from the game I discussed: I guess part of the problem, now that I’ve read your responses, is that I had a huge land area, and was trying to keep expanding peacefully and warlikely (is that a word? why not!) at the same time, because I wanted to capture the Viking capital (and their iron) to turn my neighbor into a pussycat. But at the same time, some of my cruddy cities down the south were essentially twiddling their thumbs building wealth (It’s like a drug-I know I shouldn’t be building it, but when I already have a fair # of units, I can’t really think of anything else for those low-food, medium-corrupt cities on the fringes) Regarding victory conditions, I usually have a spaceship somewhere in the back of my mind, but as several posters suggested, I guess I should let my terrain play a stronger role in this kind of decision-making. Thanks again for the suggestions; I will be copying this thread and saving it into word for further enjoyment

 

[Aabraxan]

MichelGB448, I tried to look at your save, but I can't open it for some reason. I keep getting a "Data somethingororother Error: DATE" thingamabob. (Can't you just tell that I'm technologically savvy?) Anyway, I can open it in CivAssistII, and here's what I see:
1) You're killing that AI in techs. You're the world's tech leader, and the only thing keeping you from turning that into a tidy profit is that the AI has nothing worth trading.
2) You've got 2 cities building wonders. Have you read the "Four Rules of Wonder Addiction?" You should. At the same time, let me also say that if you can simultaneously build wonders in 2 of your 17 cities, it's time to move on up.
3) You don't have enough workers. You're at < 1 per town. You need more than that and you needed them sooner.
4) You've got a ton of free space on your continent. Get some settlers out there and take it.
5) You have an awful lot of unused tiles within your cultural border, including at least one grassland cow that hasn't been irrigated yet. This is partly the result of having too few workers, and partly the result of having your cities spaced too far apart. Are you familiar with the "fat cross?"
6) I see that you've got lots of victory conditions enabled. Have you chosen one by which to win yet?
7) Judging by your tech position, and the fact that you have 17 cities, followed by the closest AI with 10, it's time for you to move up if you want a challenge.

BTW, glad you're enjoying "First Come, First Severed." It was a blast to play!

 

[RickFGS]

Get out of regent and go play a game in Monarch/Emperor to see what you can do

 

[agonistes]

Nevermind.

 

[bustedsynapses]

I find it helps me to use the function keys most every turn. It helps me save time. f1 - It helps me reduce waste in city productivity and plan future moves. f2 -It lets me stay atop the trade situation. f3 - It helps me manage my military as far as upgrading, size, cost, needs: overall cost-benefit analysis. f4 - Diplomacy, although, by the time I get through f2, much of it is done. f5 - Keeps track of cultural victory possibilities. f6 - keeps my future research timing in mind: bellieve me, it ties into my war-planning, etc.... f7 - keeps me atop of what AI is doing. I like to fight wars while the AI is building a lot of wonders, as it will keep building them no matter what. It also lets me know when I should possibly abandon attempts to beat them to a given wonder (combined with espionage button). f8 - lets me know who my main rival is. That civ knows I'm its main rival, and will treat me as such. That's usually the power that will be suddenly declaring war on me, no matter how good our relations, and no matter what our trade situation. (I find that's a good civ to trade some resource for lump sums, as they will oft soon declare war, and forfeit the goods.) If I'm too far ahead in tech and victory, I find I'm soon at war with everyone. Just my personal experience.

Anyway, if you get used to scrolling through them every turn, then you'll find it takes almost no time, as you'll have a visual reminder of your planning every turn. It just makes it easy to stay atop everything and to plan. After awhile, you can cut back to avery couple turns. Adjust to taste. However much it takes to keep your goals and planning clearly in mind.

 

[jkk]

Download this file and read it. It´s all pretty well summed up what´s to know in civ3.

http://www.civfanatics.net/downloads/civ3/reference/bonus_disk_strategies.zip

Also, get Civ Assist II program from downloads and use it.

I appreciate both suggestions (as a lurker). Unfortunately, I find I can't download CivAssist II. I get a dialog box in which the 'save file' option is and remains greyed out. I posted in the thread relevant to CivAssist in more detail, but since I was the first post there in a week, I'm not sure anyone's that likely to even notice so I thought I'd call a little attention here and hope that's not considered a breach of etiquette. If it is, I apologize.

 

[Aabraxan]

Try hitting OK anyway. For some reason, I get the same thing when downloading files here, but files will download with a little tinkering, despite the appearance of having Save File grayed out. For me, Save File is frequently grayedout, and I have to hit OK twice to get it to work.

 

[jkk]

Try hitting OK anyway. For some reason, I get the same thing when downloading files here, but files will download with a little tinkering, despite the appearance of having Save File grayed out. For me, Save File is frequently grayedout, and I have to hit OK twice to get it to work.

I would try that if there were an OK button, but there is not, not in any shade of grey or black. Just Save File or Cancel. I have no idea why.