City names mod

[Arkaeyn]

I've started with a discussion of American city names in the second message.

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I'm considering making a mod to change the order in which city names appear. I find Civ to be rather inconsistant in the order in which it assigns city names. For example, the Americans are done in roughly modern order - modern capital, DC, and then the major cities east-to-west. Fair enough. On the other hand, the English are historical. Starts with London, then goes through midieval towns like Canterbury, Warwick, etc. Liverpool is the 10th city to show up, and Manchester is way down in the high teens - since I like playing small maps, that means I'm not likely to see two of England's three major cities.

I'm also considering making colonial towns show up. For example, the French would, after X amount of cities, build Montreal and Quebec.

This could be fairly easy, so I'd probably do multiple versions of the mod for different people. For example, if someone wanted all-historical names, I could edit the Americans to start with the capital at Philadelphia, then build Boston, New York, Savannah, Yorktown, etc. The Chinese might start at Chang'An and then build Luoyang.

I'm posting this primarily for comments and suggestions. If the idea seems popular, I'll probably post according to each civilization, with polls and the like. For example, should the Russians include Kyiv? What should the Indian capital be? Does anyone know Aztec history? etc.

 

[Arkaeyn]

I'll create interest myself! Starting with the Americans, since I can do them without much research, being an American and all. Here's what we start with:

WASHINGTON
NEW_YORK
BOSTON
PHILADELPHIA
ATLANTA
CHICAGO
SEATTLE
SAN_FRANCISCO
LOS_ANGELES
HOUSTON
PORTLAND
ST_LOUIS
MIAMI
BUFFALO
DETROIT
NEW_ORLEANS
BALTIMORE
DENVER
CINCINNATI
DALLAS
MEMPHIS
CLEVELAN
KANSAS_CITY
SAN_DIEGO
RICHMOND
LAS_VEGAS
PHOENIX
ALBUQUERQUE
MINNEAPOLIS
PITTSBURGH
OAKLAND
TAMPA_BAY
ORLANDO
TACOMA
SANTA_FE
OLYMPIA
HUNT_VALLEY
SPRINGFIELD
PALO_ALTO
CENTRALIA
SPOKANE
JACKSONVILLE
SAVANNAH
CHARLESTON
SAN_ANTONIO
OMAHA
BIRMINGHAM
HONOLULU
ANCHORAGE
SACRAMENTO
SALT_LAKE_CITY
RENO
BOISE
MILWAUKEE
SANTA_CRUZ
MONTEREY
SANTA_MONICA
LITTLE_ROCK
COLUMBUS
LE_BAM


Here are my problems with it. First of all, starting with Washington has always struck me as dubious, because the capitals usually turn into one of the most important cities - and in America, Washington is ONLY important politically. Culturally, financially, population - New York is the most important city in America. I understand if people here might want Washington to remain the capital - so let me know if you think this is stupid! - but for now, I'm putting NY at the top.

I'm only primarily interested in the first 10-15 cities, so here's my list of modern American cities in terms of how I'd like to see them pop up in Civ:

New York
Los Angeles
Chicago
San Francisco
Boston
Philadelphia
Washington
Atlanta
Dallas
St. Louis
Miami
Seattle
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
Denver
Houston
New Orleans
Detroit
Phoenix
Portland
Indianapolis
Cleveland
...and so on and so on.

With Washington in 7th, I think it's a perfect position for the Forbidden Palace, which seems to me to be a better description than Capital.

 

[Arkaeyn]

Next up - the Russians.

The Russians offer several different problems. Civ, at present, has a list of important cities in modern Russia. Which is one way of going about it, but it ignores two things: first, modern Russia is very small, compared to what has been understood as Russia over the last few hundred years. Namely, the satellite states - Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc are gone. So, despite the fact that Kiev, Sevastopol, and Odessa, to pick three Ukrainian cities, are important "Russian" cities historically, they aren't in the game. At all.

So, the first question - should Russia be what is Russian, or should it include the satellite states - basically the old Soviet Union? I give that a very enthusiastic yes!

But speaking of the Soviet Union....lots of Russian names are different than they were 50 years ago. If you're a WWII buff, maybe you want to see Leningrad, Stalingrad, and all the rest.

Finally - given that the leaders available to Russia are Peter and Catherine, then one might assume that we're playing Tsarist Russia, where the sapital was St. Petersburg, not Moscow. Should that be changed?

 

[Chamaedrys]

So, despite the fact that Kiev, Sevastopol, and Odessa, to pick three Ukrainian cities, are important "Russian" cities historically, they aren't in the game. At all.

I agree. These cities were Russian in Civ2 and they should be added again. At least Kiew, was the first Russian capital.

Finally - given that the leaders available to Russia are Peter and Catherine, then one might assume that we're playing Tsarist Russia, where the sapital was St. Petersburg, not Moscow. Should that be changed?

I vote for Moscow cause it was longer capital than St. Petersburg.

 

[OzzyKP]

DC!

 

[Andrew_Jay]

Know what would be interesting? Some script that picked names based on location. I thought of it when Arkaeyn mentioned Montreal and Quebec.

Civs would have two lists of names - "home" names, and "colonial" names. The continent you start on would use "home" names, and when you settle cities on other continents, it could use the "colonial" names. Of course, this isn't going to accurately reflect large land empires (like Russia or the U.S.) but it could be neat.

Some examples:

England:
Home - London, Manchester, etc.
Colonial - Jamestown, Halifax, etc.

France:
Home - Paris, Orleans, etc.
Colonial - Montreal, Quebec, etc.

America:
Home - New York, Boston, Washington, etc.
Colonial - Honolulu, San Antonio, San Francisco, etc. (because they come from later expansion, if not necessarily overseas).

I'm drawing a blank for everyone else, though I'm sure I can come up with something if I look at a map.

 

[Chamaedrys]

Good idea! There should be also a list for habour and for land locked cities. I'm sick of building ships in Munich while Hamburg is surrounded by grasland!

 

[Andrew_Jay]

That's a great idea too, and perhaps even easier to implement.

 

[Dual]

Here are my problems with it. First of all, starting with Washington has always struck me as dubious, because the capitals usually turn into one of the most important cities - and in America, Washington is ONLY important politically. Culturally, financially, population - New York is the most important city in America. I understand if people here might want Washington to remain the capital - so let me know if you think this is stupid! - but for now, I'm putting NY at the top.

I'm only primarily interested in the first 10-15 cities, so here's my list of modern American cities in terms of how I'd like to see them pop up in Civ:

New York
Los Angeles
Chicago
San Francisco
Boston
Philadelphia
Washington
Atlanta
Dallas
St. Louis
Miami
Seattle
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
Denver
Houston
New Orleans
Detroit
Phoenix
Portland
Indianapolis
Cleveland
...and so on and so on.

New York is actually a good replacement for Washington D.C., because it was the location of our first capital for a time. It was then moved to Philadelphia for a short while, and then finally to D.C.

So if I was doing it, I'd probably move Philadelphia up to the second city. Not only was it the capital for a bit, but it was also an extremly important city during the Revolution.

 

[Rabbit, White]

I like the idea of using the map to determine the name of a city - whether it's home or foreign continent for home and colonial cities , or availability of certain terrain (rivers, sea, peaks) for just more historically accurate city placement. It would be cool to have let's say part of the name list assigned to only river tiles or only when there's a peak within the city's fat cross, or something like that.

As for the original idea of changing the order to be more consistent, doesn't really matter to me. If I feel like New York should be the capital for example I just move the palace there. In fact, seems to me that since you can to an extent control how a city develops the names should be roughly in historical order, as oppose to importance or size.

 

[Arkaeyn]

That script idea is absolutely awesome - I'm pretty sure Civ already has some idea of cities that are on other continents. Is it feasible for a modder to implement? Especially in a colonial-style mod, like Rhye's for Civ3, that would be an incredibly cool thing to have.

Dual, I'm thinking of making two American lists, one which would be historically-based, and the one I showed, which is kind of America today. With the 'historical' America I'd probably start with Philly, Boston, NY, Savannah, and have SF, LA, Denver, Chicago etc added later.

I'll try to develop a Russian Empire list of cities including Kyiv and all a bit later, but for now, I just got Rome: Total War. So after Russia might come Rome. Hehe. Although, with the Byzantines and later Italy, Rome might be incredibly complex to peice together.

 

[OzzyKP]

Ya know, you guys could just rename your cities yourself.

 

[Arkaeyn]

In-game? That's annoying, could cause problems when you end up with two San Franciscos, and most importantly, doesn't do anything about the AI cities.

 

[Arkaeyn]

I'll try to come up with a Russian list soon, but first...what about cities with multiple owners historically?

The biggest example I can think of here is Jerusalem - it's one of the, if not the most, important city of all time. Yet, as it stands, it's not in the game. Four civs currently in the game have controlled it - the Arabs, Romans, Greeks and the British, for a bit. If the Turks appear in the expansions, and they damn well better, that's five, and there are several mods with the Israelis or Babylonians. Did the Persians? They must have, right? And the Crusaders, even, so possibly even the French.

Jerusalem should be in the game - this is clear. But where? Owned by one of these civs? (I'd go the Arabs, but that's problematic. I could be tempted by the Romans) Or make it a 'free city' and have the Barbarians build it?

It's not the only city like this, of course, but perhaps the most famous. Amsterdam is another one. Krakow and Warsaw.

Suggestions?

 

[ToV]

I think you might find this interesting. In the Greek World senario, cities change names when a diffenent civ controlls it. When the Romans capture Delphoi, it becomes Delphi. Jerusalem goes through some drastic name changes, I think. I have know idea how they did this. I'll leave it up to you to puzzle out.

 

[Arkaeyn]

Yeah, I noticed that once. It's PROBABLY something only for set maps - If Romans Take Byzantium 22,45 Change Name To Constantinople.

But I don't think it would be terribly useful for my purposes. There aren't very many cities founded by one civ which are taken over and renamed by others. Well, maybe in the ancient world with Greece/Rome/Persia. Also German Konigsberg to Russian Kaliningrad is one...but most of the others with different owners/names are like Jerusalem and the problem is more where they start.

Still, the fact that there are scripts for dynamic name changing is quite interesting.

 

[NeverMind]

Arkaeyn, I made russian city list of 200+ names for my mod, if you are interested

 

[Chamaedrys]

Also German Konigsberg to Russian Kaliningrad is one...but most of the others with different owners/names are like Jerusalem and the problem is more where they start.

I would gave these cities to the founding Civ. The Civ that conquered the city in history have also the change to conquer the city in the game.

 

[Arkaeyn]

Nevermind, I'm very interested. Send it to me in a private message, or e-mail me, with this name at yahoo. How did you do it? Did you include the former Soviet/Imperial cities, like Kyiv? Soviet names?

Chamaedrys, if there's a clear founding Civ, I'd probably agree, particularly in an example like Konigsberg. But the founding Civ for most of them isn't in the game, from Jerasalem to Amsterdam.

 

[Chamaedrys]

Chamaedrys, if there's a clear founding Civ, I'd probably agree, particularly in an example like Konigsberg. But the founding Civ for most of them isn't in the game, from Jerasalem to Amsterdam.

Hm....true, its hard to define the correct Civ if the founding nation is not in the game. A solution could be improved Minor Nations. We could rename the 'Barbarians' to 'Minor Nations' or 'Indipendants', give them a new flag, a big list of important cities and maybe a lower difficulty.