City Specialization... Why not just build everything?

The funny thing about that, Jim, is that I look at those things in exactly the opposite way. Since I'm more likely to build a market to provide happiness than cash, I think of that as its main use, with the extra 25% gold a bonus. I also always forget that about forges, too.

The trouble there is that if you haven't got the applicable luxuries, you're not going to get any happiness out of it. The gold, though, is unconditional. I think the same way - especially if you're trading for resources, there's no guarantee that that bonus is going to stick around. I've got a game going right now without any of the market resources, but I built them all over the place anyway for the cash.

I never remember forges' bonuses either! Damn!
 
Specialization and whipping are what got me up a level, so you're on at least one of the right tracks. Here's my current science center, base 86. I don't really know how good it is relative to the masses of folk who are better than me, but I'm pretty happy with 466 beakers.

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That's a very nice science city. Nearly 500 beakers in 1800 AD is impressive.

One thing I'd be doing different with it is taking it out of stagnation. You've got room in terms of both health and happiness for that city to grow. Could you have one of the scientists work the rice tile, or is that absolutely needed by another city? Maybe replace that lacklustre plains cottage with a farm and work it to support growth. I assume you have Biology by now?

I also rarely build research, not when there are other very useful buildings still available. This city is generating a significant amount of commerce as well as science (a science city is, in a CE, just a specialized type of commerce city, after all). And you're in the red at 80% on the slider. So I'd be building (or would have already built) a bank (stock exchange in this case) as well as a grocer and a market (the latter two would lift the health and happiness caps higher). And a forge and a factory would help you get those built, and the grocer would offset their health demerits.

Regarding the tiles: lumber mills and railroads in two of those forests would make them more productive. One forest could be chopped with no loss of the health bonus. I'd choose the one on the hill; replace it with a mine for a chance at discovering a resource--looks like the city needs the hammers. By the way, when you finish Industrialism, those ivory tiles will be obsolete. You could put cottages, farms, or watermills on them, depending on your needs.

You see my point? I think you've maximized the city's research potential, but not its full potential.
 
Thanks, Sisiutil, I appreciate the feedback.

The rice was being used by the nearby city which provided the majority of gold to the empire (this game is past tense after last night). I contemplated the trade-off a few times, and left it with the gold city.

Some of these comments are perfect in the context of this thread. Insofar as specialization goes, I have had it in mind that, well, a city ought to be specialized! In the back of my mind I still think, like you, that if I have spare production capacity (ie. 10 beakers-worth of production while set on Research is, as you note, not really worthwile) I might as well build a bank, or a market, or what have you. And yet... This is a science city, not a financial center. If I start building financial buildings (and forge/factory to assist with this), then I'm no longer specializing, am I?

This could be said, perhaps: Since I've already specialized the city to near-scientific perfection, I ought to turn my attention to other tasks. Put another way, specialization means beginning with a focus on the particular specialty, and then expanding into other specialities when the initial needs are met. Would that be a fair statement? Is this city an example of a city that is too specialized?
 
Thanks, Sisiutil, I appreciate the feedback.

The rice was being used by the nearby city which provided the majority of gold to the empire (this game is past tense after last night). I contemplated the trade-off a few times, and left it with the gold city.

Some of these comments are perfect in the context of this thread. Insofar as specialization goes, I have had it in mind that, well, a city ought to be specialized! In the back of my mind I still think, like you, that if I have spare production capacity (ie. 10 beakers-worth of production while set on Research is, as you note, not really worthwile) I might as well build a bank, or a market, or what have you. And yet... This is a science city, not a financial center. If I start building financial buildings (and forge/factory to assist with this), then I'm no longer specializing, am I?

This could be said, perhaps: Since I've already specialized the city to near-scientific perfection, I ought to turn my attention to other tasks. Put another way, specialization means beginning with a focus on the particular specialty, and then expanding into other specialities when the initial needs are met. Would that be a fair statement? Is this city an example of a city that is too specialized?
Forgive me for saying so, but your approach to specialization reminds me of an old joke: "A specialist is someone who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing". ;)

I would say your last statement is partially correct. The key is my earlier comment that a science city is just a specialized type of commerce city (the wealth city, where you will likely have at least one shrine and build Wall Street, is another).

Commerce in CivIV gets converted into science and gold. If a city has a lot of commerce, there's nothing wrong with building both types of buildings that multiply commerce into those two end products. Yes, if it's a science city, then building a University there is a higher priority than a Bank. But there's no reason why you can't build the Bank if there are no science multipliers to build anytime soon.

In fact, the tech tree usually accommodates these sorts of mixed builds. You generally get access to Writing first, then you can build Libraries. Soon after that comes Commerce; now you can build Marketplaces. But should you? It's a science city! Yeah, it is, but didn't you get the Library built a long time ago? And Universities and Observatories won't be available for several more turns. Meanwhile, that city's cottages are maturing, churning out more commerce. And the more gold you have, the higher you can set the science slider. So you can turn that commerce back into science one way or another--if not via a building, then via the slider.

Also remember that Markets increase happiness and Grocers increase health. Both let you grow the science city to a larger population, and that means you can work more cottages and/or run more scientists. Again, you're converting your city's products into science. The connection is less direct than building research, but it's there.

City specialization is basically a technique that lets you prioritize during the game, so you can make smart choices rather than just building things almost at random. It guides you towards builds that maximize a city's potential. But it's not religious doctrine. Isabella won't hate you for building a library in your shrine city (she'll have plenty of other reasons to hate you). :lol:
 
Got it. In hindsight, I think I applied too much gusto when I made the move from whim-based building to specialized building. (I suspect I also moved from a loving-based economy to a whip-based economy with too much gusto, but I can't hear my citizens complain above the din of scream and yowl, so I'm not too concerned about that one.)

Thanks again!
 
Their is a great guide to specialization in the war academy, I know it has helped me alot.
 
The funny thing about that, Jim, is that I look at those things in exactly the opposite way. Since I'm more likely to build a market to provide happiness than cash, I think of that as its main use, with the extra 25% gold a bonus. I also always forget that about forges, too.
Same here. And the Harbor is usually mainly used as a health building in my cities, with the extra trade as a side benefit (except in the really large cities, where the trade is the more important benefit).
 
As far as city specialization goes, it's important to keep this in mind: a production city really doesn't need any commerce, but a commerce city still needs some production to get the necessary buildings going. Sure, you can whip or pay, but normal production is still the best way to get things built over the course of the game, especially later on.

The main area of specialization I need to work on is GP farms; I tend to either forget about that one or run a pseudo-GP farm in my science city, which is a no-no.

Great thread, by the way ^^
 
How many base hammers do you suggest in a commerce city?

Depends. Got a high food resource like corn or pigs, and the balls to whip the people that resource lets the city have? You can get away with barely any. If you're building the old fashioned way, 10 seems reasonable. Thuogh again, it depends if you built a forge, if you're boosting with organized religion, if you're running universal suffrage to make that town spam also give you hammers, etc.
 
How many base hammers do you suggest in a commerce city?

My instinct is 4 or 8, on the grounds that you can take your time up to the point where you are capable of buy rushing what you need.

An interesting question might be "what is the cost of the infrastructure for a commerce city?"

60 :hammers: Granary
120 :hammers: Forge
120 :hammers: Courthouse
30 :hammers: Monument
80 :hammers: Temple

Maybe some of that you can shave off, but we're already looking at 400+ :hammers:, and we haven't even got any commerce multipliers to play with. We still need some combination of...

60 :hammers: Monastery
90 :hammers: Library
200 :hammers: University
150 :hammers: Market
150 :hammers: Grocer
200 :hammers: Bank

At 4 :hammers: per turn, you are looking at 200 turns to get all this done... I think you'd want to be doubling that rate; 200 turns feels awfully slow to me.

Of course, if the food resources are available, whipping becomes a lot more viable as an alternative to base hammers.
 
Also, with commerce cities, you want to make sure all forest is cleared so you can cottage up that land the forest is on. So you can use forest chops to help speed up production of buildings.

Personally, I go ahead and mine hills on commerce cities early in the game, then go back and build windmills as needed later in the game. When you get Replaceable Parts, the windmills provide a good benefit to commerce cities.

Alternatively, if you have a commerce city that's got a lot of food, grassland hills can be cottaged. I never cottage a plains hill, though, since it won't generate any food, and always go with a windmill instead.
 
Alternatively, if you have a commerce city that's got a lot of food, grassland hills can be cottaged. I never cottage a plains hill, though, since it won't generate any food, and always go with a windmill instead.

Are you sure about that? I could just be forgetful but I don't believe you're able to cottage hills of any sort. I've never seen a cottaged hill, that I'm certain of.
 
Are you sure about that? I could just be forgetful but I don't believe you're able to cottage hills of any sort. I've never seen a cottaged hill, that I'm certain of.

If I'm not mistakened, you can cottage grassland hills, but not plains/desert/tundra hills. Personally, I've always wanted to cottage a forest... <_<
 
Are you sure about that? I could just be forgetful but I don't believe you're able to cottage hills of any sort. I've never seen a cottaged hill, that I'm certain of.

I'm certain.

The mechanics are somewhat odd. The relevent settings are in CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml. You'll find there that cottages can be built on grassland or plains (the TerrainMakesValid settings), provided the tile has at least one food (the PrereqNatureYields settings).

Therefore, you can build a cottage on a grassland hill (which has one food) but not on a plains hill (no food). You can build a cottage on a plains hill that has sheep (because the sheep provide the food that you need). You can build a cottage on a grassland hill that has a forrest, but if you want to cottage a grassland hill with a jungle, you have to chop the jungle first (because the jungle masks the food). Unless, of course, the jungled grassland hill happens to have pigs...
 
If I'm not mistakened, you can cottage grassland hills, but not plains/desert/tundra hills. Personally, I've always wanted to cottage a forest... <_<

You can get cottage'd forests with the alt-w command. In the world builder, you can even build cottaged sea and coastal tiles with forests.

If you want to try something silly but fun, put together a city with just enough land to give yourself mined hills with Copper, Iron, Aluminum and Stone or Marble directly on your capital. Then give yourself the remaining big fat cross with coastal tiles with seafood resources and Forests. Drop cottages on the coastal tiles on which you don't put fishing boats and then run rivers and railroads up and down the big fat cross area (and run the railroads one tile outside the BFC).

Now there is a city in which you can build everything. I tried that for a One City Challenge once on a lark and I found I had to run the Caste System civic just to keep up with the overflowing population that I had. Absolutely rediculous how quickly that city shot into the stratosphere.
 
The best way to learn the value of city specialisation is to play on a much higher level than you are used to. Then, you are in such a race with the AI to do anything that every turn becomes vital. Every turn or hammer spent on something not absolutely necessary is just one step closer to getting your head smashed in by Genghis Khan.
 
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