Civ 4, a failure made successful by money and absence of community

From Bhruic's quote:

"It's happened with A LOT of games. Features get cut, release dates slip and bugs get left in. It comes down to economics - at what point can the publisher no longer push a game back and have to release it in order to make money or, at the very least, break even? It's different for every game and it's not always fair, but it is what it is."

Wow, that's virtually an admission that the industry is prepared to pass crap onto consumers, so long as they "break even". I guess I'm a little naive, I assumed the industry was a little more ethical than that.

It really is "caveat emptor", isn't it?
 
bobalot, I never said what Firaxis/Take 2 did wasn't bad, I agree with that conclusion.

And yes, I understood the point, you missed mine. In those 10 patches there were bug fixes, lots of them. My point was that Blizzard did not release the game as perfect as some people have made it out to be. Game balancing issues, are almost as bad as crashes. I finished playing stronghold 2 recently, I had no problems with crashing or stability, but the game was so unbalanced that I walked through the game half asleep and won easily. My 5 year old could have won that. Those sorts of bugs ruin the game as surely as a crash does. It wasn't any fun at all.

The same with warlords 3, when I first played, the races that were unbalanced it's been a while and I forget which ones were but anyways, the game (for me anyways) was either super easy or super hard - again - it was boring or really frustrating.
 
This is a tricky one... "why was this game rushed to release" and "why not release it 'when it's done'". It's also a bigger issue with the industry...
...agreements are made that a game will be done by a certain time. The Features get cut, release dates slip and bugs get left in. It comes down to economics -it's not always fair, but it is what it is.
Remember this is from Take2 - if we are going to blame someone for the state of the game at release, the wrath should not fall on Firaxis. I am sure the last thing they wanted is a bunch of devoted Civ fans being frustrated and unable to play.

I don't really think we're dealing with "bugs", though, so much as a game that shipped with unrealistic hardware recommendations. I imagine what's on the box is what they were shooting for, and there just wasn't time to tweak the code for it. My system was well above the mimimum specs, and the game just brought it to its knees - more than any other, by far, even stuff like Half Life 2 and Doom 3. I'm a PC gamer, I'm a bit resigned to upgrades, but it really should be playable on a P4 2.5, 1 Gb RAM, Radeon 9600XT. Not constant CTD's, blue screens, hard reboots, all that stuff.

This is not as frustrating as some of the other "it is what it is" releases - Temple of Elemental Evil and KOTOR 2 come to mind - because Firaxis has the clout to actually *fix* their games. I don't really think the good reviews were "bought" - game reviewers - like game developers - would likely have bleeding-edge hardware, and few if any problems. And you don't have to get very far into a game to be impressed with what they've done here - this is what Civ3 should have been, a worthy upgrade to the series.

Be nice to be able to actually play my pre-ordered game, though - for a lot of us, there's nothing to do but pay for upgrades, or wait for the patches.
 
Game balancing issues, are almost as bad as crashes.
I'm sure not being able to actually play a game balanced or not despite paying for the game and meeting the recomended requirements is almost as bad as playing slightly un-balanced game.
 
xguild: I agree that game quality has gone down the drains. And to say the least, it is sad that Firaxis goofed in making sure that Civ 4, a 3D civ, is going to run on computers that many civ fans have (a computer that doesn't have a fancy graphics card, nor fast and lots of ram, and fast CPUs)
But the problem is that the gaming industry moved from fearing bad press to being able to shove crap down customer's throats and still get their profits. IMO some of the big game review sites has been bought out by companies that has an interest in having gamers getting bored and buying more and more games, or having gamers keep upgrading their hardware.
Let's assume that I'm not bitter and jaded and will give the developers the benefit of a doubt that they're really passionate for the game and didn't want to be creaters of bad games (either bad game play, or bad implementation - IMO it's a inefficient implementation). The problem is that since the whole industry has gone the way of putting games that should be in beta in public and reap money now and screw the customers, they can't spend all the time they needed to hunt bugs, or profile the game to find out where the heck is the code inefficient; they have to have the game out eventually, or risk having other games of similar genre take the sales . So they end up putting the game on the market before it's truly ready. This is happening a lot more often; it's sad, but apparently when big game companies (looks at EA) cares more about profits, and they're able to crank out games like nothing, smaller companies have to react to it.
I can accept the fact that a strategy game's mechanics may not be balanced when they're released. Often it's hard to do that, but it's not tolerable that an good amount of bugs is in a game and gamers end up waiting for patches.
Doing my Comp Sci assignment recently made me less critical of how these developers can't write bug-free code. I mean I thought my parser (part of a compiler class) was working properly, but I couldn't figure out the bug on time. Thre are plenty of stats on the average number of bugs per lines of code, and they vary a lot. Also, again, I'll be nice (instead of my bitter self), and say that they're just moving to 3D while others in the industry has already been adjusted, so it wasn't that surprising that the engine wasn't efficient - which is apparently one of the many places that they have a problem with.
It's going to be hard to go back to the days where upsetting your fan base is going to upset your income. Unless someone smite the large gaming review sites, or at least give them some balls to be more critical, this isn't really going to happen. I'd say that before condeming Civ 4 as a failure based on the bugs now, we should give them a chance to redeem themselves by looking at how well the patch is going to fix the current set of problems, and see whether the patch introduce new, serious problems. Frankly, I've seen far buggier games that seriously affected game play, instead of having low frame rates and the occasional wrong number of models for combat in Civ 4. But still they should've spent more time making the thing work properly and efficiently.

And frankly people who blast others for not having a "good enough" system should piss off. Their system requirements are out of wack, and the guys who came up with it should be ashamed of it. This gripe is one that I simply cannot tolerate.
 
screwtype said:
Wow, that's virtually an admission that the industry is prepared to pass crap onto consumers, so long as they "break even". I guess I'm a little naive, I assumed the industry was a little more ethical than that.

Why is that a surprise? Did you expect them to be happy to lose money on every game they make? How long would they be in business if they did that? Who would be publishing games at all?

Bh
 
Uty said:
This would be really nice. What's important to keep in mind though is that everyone's computer is different. Making sure it will work on everyone's is a tremendous task. (Take2 messed up but I don't think it's the end of the world.)

I think your car/freezer/etc analogy would work better if kitchen and road configurations could cause the product to not work. "We're sorry sir but this refridgerator has not been tested on gray tiles. We'll have a patch out in two weeks."

nope my analogy works perfectly. I can give you an example just out of my mind:
1) car: my car airbags did not work after an accident. Other cars airbags worked perfectly. Does this mean that the car as a product works perfectly because a whole bunch of people didn't have any problems, and that I should shut up for this reason ? Give me a break...
 
Bhruic said:
Why is that a surprise? Did you expect them to be happy to lose money on every game they make? How long would they be in business if they did that? Who would be publishing games at all?

Bh

believe me if a publisher keeps releasing crap to customers they won't be in the business for long too. Keep in mind two things: 1) customers remember when they buy a faulty product and they are treated like **** instead of receiving assistance about it, 2) customers have rights, and once a bunch of them who have time enough start some legal action against such sort of things, it won't be a rose garden for the companies at fault.
I'm sorry for Firaxis because they've been dragged into this **** by T2, however I really hope they learnt the lesson and won't sell their work to a company that works like Take2, next time.
 
onedreamer said:
however I really hope they learnt the lesson and won't sell their work to a company that works like Take2, next time.

It's not like they have a choice anymore. Take2 owns them.
 
I am assuming most of this would be null if PC had the same hardware specification standards as a game console? This assumption being purely based on the large percentage of hardware related posts.

Great thing about PC games is they are usually sold for significantly less 6 months after first release usually with a patch or two. What makes this significant is the production time required to make new games these days. I usually have to wait years for any game that sounds promising. So waiting for a game to get most if not all its bugs work out in a non issue for me.
 
JBConquests said:
I have to agree with DamRho. I am a lead software developer for a very large software company. Trying to develop software that runs perfectly on every computer is an impossible job. Blame the crashing problems on hundreds of different video card types, motherboards, sound cards, etc... Trying to test every possible combination of these would require Firaxis to literally build thousands of computers just to make sure it is perfect. If you expect them to do that then your game is going to cost hundreds of $.

So explain to me why HL2 and Doom 3 (off the top of my head...complicated, graphics intensive releases) work fine. Did their developers/publishers somehow do "more" to have their software run fine?
 
jajohns8 said:
So explain to me why HL2 and Doom 3 (off the top of my head...complicated, graphics intensive releases) work fine. Did their developers/publishers somehow do "more" to have their software run fine?

Just out of curiosity I went to Doom 3 site and pulled the list of fixes in their patches (3 so far). I am a software dev and I wanted to see this mythical bug-free release. List of fixes is pretty long. There were at least 4 crash bugs fixed in the first patch. And so on...

So it seems that you were in the lucky majority that got the game to work but still people experienced problems. With Civ IV, it's the other guys (myself included) that were lucky and you're stuck. Sorry.
 
JoJohns8, Doom3 and Half-life 2 did not run fine for everyone. EVERY game forum will have many people visiting them with problems. In fact, MOST people without problems don't spend time in forums because they don't have bad things to say. World of Warcraft still has tons of people with issues, F.E.A.R. has tons of complaints of crashes and such. EVERY GAME forum has lots of people there complaining about how such and such game runs bad. GUaranteed for every one person that has a problem, there are hundreds that the game runs perfectly for. Just those few tend to stand out because they complain and the peolpe without problems don't complain..
 
I'm sorry, I just don't see the scale of "problems" that those 2 games experienced early on as the same as with Civ 4.
I do concede the point that they were not PERFECT releases, though.

And, to be completely selfish, I want EVERYTHING to work on MY system.

I mean, I'm not expecting a "favor" in order to get the game to work right.....I paid about 50.00 for it.

Oh, and I work in software too, grzesl, so I am completely familiar with a dev/release cycle.
I dont know about you, but I take pride in not shipping til our stuff works the way it should.
And, in the event something DOESNT, we work hard with the customer to figure out a solution. We COMMUNICATE.

Civ 3 worked out of the box and fine for me along with the above games....why not Civ 4....?

And my main complaint is the lack of information flow from the developer and the publisher.
Problems? Fine.

Just don't leave me flapping in the wind without any communication.

We got notice of a forthcoming patch just few days ago. Unacceptable from a consumer standpoint, IMO.

My emails to support:Form response and no response.

Maybe the rate at which my whines and complaints arent handled isnt important to you, but it is to me and other gamers/consumers with problems.
Software/gaming dev is a nasty, competitive market.....Go ahead, be the studio that drops the ball in consumer relationship management....

The bottom line is I, and many others, will not look at this line of games the same way I/we did before.

And, sorry to break it to you, but customer relationships/reputation made them what they are now....

In my first post in this thread, I said I liked the game, but I'm just disappointed in the level of support and communication, myself, as a consumer has been given.

That still holds true. I just want to hold the developer and the publisher responsible for what I see as the wrong way to handle customers.
 
jajohns8,

I was arguing rather narrow point of bug-free releases. To the best of my knowledge, there aren't any.

As for the other points, I completely understand that you might not like the quality of the software, or the level of support. And if you feel strongly about it, then don't buy software from Firaxis/Take2 again. If there's more people like yourself then they'll be driven out of business and other guys will hopefully get the message.

However, to be completely selfish, Civ 4 works perfectly on my machine and it's a excellent game, so I'll definitely buy from them again. To put it that way, they don't have to please everybody all the time, but some people some of the time to stay in business. And, as far as I know, that's the way with all companies, I doubt that there is a product on the market that works for everybody.

And as a minor point, Civ3 did not work for me when released. There was a problem with fonts that rendered all diplomacy screens useless. I had to wait for a workaround to play it. So Civ4 seems (to me) a step in a right direction.
 
I went to a presentation on software development that once presented on the probability of success and failure of a development team. It presented it as a line where the far left is complete and utter failure. The far right is a successful and relatively bug free project. Something like:

Failure |---------------------------------| Success (Perfection)

No projects are all the way on the right. We humans can't achieve that. There are projects that land all the way on the left, we don't usually hear about those - it's covered up. Most end up somewhere in between. A team that released a project that ended up further to the right, may move on to another project that ends up being a failed project. As someone earlier said the variables that go into the software development process are so complex we as an industry haven't come up with a way to ensure that every project is as close to success as we can get it without costing tons of money. Hopefully, someday we will but...

For now, we just got to hope that our favorite games end up closer to the right end than the left. There are processes development teams can follow to help them end up farther to the right on the scale, if they don't they may end up farther to the left. But it is no guarantee.

jajohns8, I agree with your comment on communication. Where I work, we communicate directly to the customers, admit our failures, and communicate timelines on fixes. It's amazing how a little communication can make bad situations better...
 
JBConquests said:
jajohns8, I agree with your comment on communication. Where I work, we communicate directly to the customers, admit our failures, and communicate timelines on fixes. It's amazing how a little communication can make bad situations better...

Sometimes though, the CIO says, "We want it out tomorrow. Deploy it." You know it's not ready, QA (or the customer in certain cases) knows it's not ready, and an all-nighter won't even come close to fixing all of the remaining problems. You need to keep your job and you can't argue. What can you do?

I think the following quote is most appropriate (imagine the appropriate Nimoy voice over):

"The Corporation is an ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without
individual responsibility."---Ambrose Pierce

I am on the developers' side on things like this, but not on the marketing/corporate department's side, if that makes sense.
 
grzesl said:
jajohns8,

And if you feel strongly about it, then don't buy software from Firaxis/Take2 again. If there's more people like yourself then they'll be driven out of business and other guys will hopefully get the message.

However, to be completely selfish, Civ 4 works perfectly on my machine and it's a excellent game, so I'll definitely buy from them again. To put it that way, they don't have to please everybody all the time, but some people some of the time to stay in business. And, as far as I know, that's the way with all companies, I doubt that there is a product on the market that works for everybody.

I hear ya. It's that I want to enjoy this game so much but can't because of the CTD in late game problem.

I'll have much renewed faith when the patch comes out.

I will still always push for better communication from the developer/publisher end.....
 
Common Sensei said:
Sometimes though, the CIO says, "We want it out tomorrow. Deploy it." You know it's not ready, QA (or the customer in certain cases) knows it's not ready, and an all-nighter won't even come close to fixing all of the remaining problems. You need to keep your job and you can't argue. What can you do?

I think the following quote is most appropriate (imagine the appropriate Nimoy voice over):

"The Corporation is an ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without
individual responsibility."---Ambrose Pierce

I am on the developers' side on things like this, but not on the marketing/corporate department's side, if that makes sense.

Fine, as long as the CIO doesn't also say: "Don't respond to customer complaints." or "Send them form email responses" or any other policy condoning paltry customer support....
Or, at least recognize your process for handling complaints needs re-working......

If you do rush it, deal with the consequences/complaints in a timely manner.

Two things would have made a huge difference for me:

1. Notice of a patch sooner (much sooner) from official sources.

2. Personal response to my email for customer support.

These 2 things would have made a HUGE difference for me.

If those 2 things are not doable, then, IMO they should be.

In fact, I do not accept that they are not doable.
 
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