Civ Discussion - Han

[bengalryan9]

The next civ up for a discussion is the Han. The Han are a scientific and diplomatic civ with a grassland starting bias. They unlock the Ming and Mongolia in the Exploration age, and the Qing in the Modern Age, and their associate wonder is Weiyang Palace (+6 influence).

Their unique ability is Nine Provinces, which gives the capital and any new towns an additional population with their first growth event.
Their unique military unit is the Chu-Ko-Nu, an archer replacement that has exerts zone of control, has higher combat strength, and gets +5 ranged strength when attacking adjacent units.
Their unique civilian unit is the Shi Dafu, a great person that can only be trained in cities with at least 10 population. Once again I’m not going to list every single one here but they tend to give free codices, bonus science, a free tech/celebration/promotion/population, or extra influence.
Their unique infrastructure is the Han Great Wall, which gives a flat +2 culture plus +1 happiness for each adjacent great wall segment. It also counts as a fortification and grants defending units on the tile +6 combat strength. It can only be built in a straight line and cannot branch or fork.

Their unique civics are:
Zhi – Unlocks the Great Wall, gives +1 science to science buildings per adjacent quarter, and +1 settlement limit.
Li – Unlocks the Guanxi tradition and gives +2 influence on the palace.
Yi – Unlocks the Jiu Qing tradition and gives Chu-Ko-Nu +5 combat strength when defending.
Junzi – Unlocks Weiyang Palace, the Tianxia tradition, and gives +10% science in the capital.
They do not appear to have any masteries in their civic tree.

Their traditions:
Guanxi - +1 influence on science buildings
Jiu Qing - +1 influence on happiness buildings
Tianxia - +1 science on specialists

What do people think of the Han? What is your preferred playstyle with them? Do they have any weaknesses or areas that could use a rebalance? Which leaders fit well with them, and who do you look to transition to in future ages?

 

[bengalryan9]

I only played as the Han once and it was pretty early on (maybe my 4th game?). TBH they are a civ that I kind of forget about it when I'm deciding who to play as, but that doesn't mean they're bad and, in fact, now that I look at their entire kit again it makes me want to take them for a spin again. Might start as them when I start my next game after the next patch drops.

The Han are one of many examples in that the civ description on the civ select screen doesn't really tell you everything you need to know about them... if you just went off that description you'd have no idea of the science abilities they have going for them. Outside of the Maya they may be one of the strongest science civs in antiquity, and they'll generate more influence than probably anyone but Greece. Both of those are strong advantages! I argued that a lot of Greece's extra influence could go to waste but the Han don't have all the discounts on spending it that the Greeks do so I think it's very helpful here.

Extra population is always nice and allows you to get your settlements up and running that much faster. Chu-Ko-Nus are stronger ranged units (which I love) that can stand up better on defense (also a plus for me!). Shi Dafu suffer the same issues that all great people do, but there *are* some pretty nice ones in there and at least these don't require multiple buildings to train. Their civics have some nice effects and their traditions do as well (especially Tianxia, which should see use throughout the game, especially right after age transitions).

The Great Wall drives me nuts. It pretty much always has. This is very much a me problem, though - I want my cities to look nice, and having all these short chunks of wall going every which direction really irks me lol. All I want are long stretches along the outside of my border but good luck with that - you first have to work tiles outward from the city center to be able to build on those tiles in the first place, any resource will get in the way, and since they can never fork or branch you can have a tough time adjusting to changes in your borders, so it's never going to look how it's *supposed* to, lol. It's a nice improvement, though, so it is worth placing and it definitely helps a science focused Han keep up in culture as well. Does the fortification bonus on these tiles apply to enemy troops as well? I think I remember seeing that it does in an earlier game I played where I was attacking a city surrounded by them, and if so that's a pretty serious drawback.

As for leaders, obviously Confucious, Himiko, and Trung Trac fit with Han's science focus well. For less obvious picks consider Achaemenid Xerxes to buff their UI and improve their economy, or Ibn Battuta, whose two attribute points can allow you to start settlements with *3* population, or to discount befriending city states, or to go even stronger into your science game.

Ming China is an obvious and natural followup in Exploration as you can just plop their UI right on top of Han's. I could see Abbasid and Majapahit also being good followups, if you can unlock them.

 

[sixty4half]

They push the snowball early and they push it hard. Their bonuses are very good early game and the traditions keep you in the lead through out all 3 ages.

You'll have a huge amount of science, culture, influence and happiness that is all completely unaffected by the age changing so you'll always have a head start if you played Antiquities well.

 

[Sagax]

I’ll admit, the Great Library is my least successful legacy path in the entire game - mainly because my Antiquity strategy is weak on science. My beakers come in late, and it usually boils down to me frantically trying to complete tech masteries that grant codices, but will often be 1-2 short before the age ends.

To that end, the Shi Dafu are a godsend, amplified by the fact that Han’s abilities naturally nudge you towards city conversion - so you are more likely to have a spare capital to produce them, while others are busy with wonders and army. Of all unique GPs, I find them most useful.

The Great Walls should be spammable, but their placement requirements make it tricky. You want to prioritize improving resources, but UIs cannot be built on them, so you are forced to make a choice of improving a bunch of “blank” tiles - which is not ideal.

That being said, there is a “secret”: last time I checked, the Han Great Wall has a bug where it removes your population by 1 each time it’s built, without affecting the food output. So you can essentially lock in your settlement’s growth pace as along as you spam the Great Wall in it. I don’t think this has been fixed yet.

100% agree that they’re the prime example of why we need to be able to see civ civic trees upfront during selection.

 

[Navelgazer]

I'm largely with bengalryan9 here, in that I tend to forget about Han despite how strong they are, in part because I simply don't have the patience to deal with building a pretty Great Wall and I'm not sure how anyone actually does that. But whatever, the Wall is kinda the meme part of their kit (though I'm sure Xerxes-A loves it), while everything else they've got works fine enough without it.

Maybe I've just had good luck with Shi Dafu, but I've found them more reliably impactful than most random UUs. They just each give you a nice bonus that you probably aren't desperately in need of, but which will help with your overall snowball (some of which even stick around past the era!)

Cho-Ko-Nu are great (any unique ranged unit is going to make me pretty happy, but these are particularly good for their time) and the UA is basically like Carthage's Colonist but without restrictions. But those Traditions are key - small numbers that start to add up very nicely.

Confucius is the obvious pairing for several reasons, and it's tough to have a bad game there, but you may also try Ada Lovelace, to use your science production to yank along your culture, Trung Trac to really double down on the science and build up a militaristic beast for later, or Lafayette, who fits beautifully with Ming but doesn't unlock them himself (not that Ming is that tough to unlock through gameplay, though.) Since Han's traditions are worth keeping around at least through Exploration (where they do very nice things to aid in the Science path.), Lafayette ends up pairing nicely with them.

 

[Lazy sweeper]

I prefered the Raider unit from civ 3 kind of gameplay.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I really like this Civ! it's so much influence in the longterm, and the Great Walls give a good chunk of Science that pairs really well with Serpend Mound in Exploration.

It's difficult to gauge how good Han is compared to Greece. Greece's influence bonuses are more immediate and they get really strong influence discounts on both Endeavours and Befriend Independent actions. Han's are just... larger, by the end of the Era. (It speaks for how strong immediate bonuses are that I'm still considering Greece as better although their overal kit is weaker.) The Chu-Ko-Nu is a fantastic defensive resource but the Shi Dafu is severly hampered by being a Capital Trained Only unit. Still, it's very difficult to not complete Great Library as Han, guaranteeing Golden Age Libraries in Exploration.

And I suppose the Civ really is supposed to be viewed in the light as one that sets up domination in the next two era's rather than an Antiquity powerspike. Serpend Mound + Great Walls is fantastic. +1 Influence to every Temple is also nothing to scoff at, and it applies to your Observatories as well. Han starts lead to City State domination on top of all the other ludicrous things you can do with Influence (espionage, sanctions, support yourself in wars, etc), a diplomatic smörgåsbord that is usually only available to Machiavelli + Greece starts.

Finally, Han are in a very interesting position: they have a desert starting bias, which increases the odds of finding the Camels needed to become Abbasids, start with Ming already unlocked and their influence bonuses guarantee they can become Shawnee. Those are three very solid options to be in Exploration.

Pair with Friend Himiko for maximum diplo cheese and you're set to play an unlosable game. My last game was exactly like that, a Han => Shawnee => Siam Himiko science speedrun.

A tier!

 

[McSpank01]

I think I came to enjoy the Han a great deal, once I realised the best method for building the great wall in long stretches across my empire. In fact getting a cool looking wall becomes my biggest priority. It is maybe the one civ where you need to be in the effort to plan your cities out and think ahead extremely rigourously. Once I understood that Walls can only be placed on existing rural tiles I realised where I was going wrong. So now I just plonk farms and mines etc all along the edge of my cities, making sure to link them up by doing the same in the settlement next door. Then it's pretty simple to just turn them all into a nice looking wall, especially if you use gold to do it.

The wall itself is great for Culture and happiness and there are some very nice synergies with some wonders what just smash it out of the park. The difficulty becomes how you move from Han into Ming, because the two wall types do not connect up, so your choice becomes where to do 2 rings, or replace your old wall. You lose happiness if you replace however and its not a simple choice to do that.

Otherwise, its a bit of a shame that the wall doesn't work so amazingly as a defensive measure. I've had wars where enemy units have walzed through the walls, killing my units a lot easier than I thought they would. I think it's a +6 combat bonus for defenders, but when you look at all the other possible bonuses, it's kind of weak.

 

[protocol7]

I have to admit I haven't played this civ because of all the random bits of wall placed all over the place I saw in screenshots. I should give them a try next.

 

[UWHabs]

I played them in my first game, so I can't really comment too much as I was still learning. I think I at least got like 6 or 7 sections of wall in a line together, but the problem with UI that need to go on top of other improvements is that it takes a lot of effort to grow to the right tile, put the wall segment down, etc.. I really wish that they could have created the wall in chunks that go along tile borders instead...

But yeah, I think they're a relatively solid civ, nothing too special. Probably worth trying again, now that I understand the game mechanics a bit more.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Great Walls are best used in Towns. Plenty of space there, just buy them.

money IS a bit tight for Han, but i do think buying Great Walls is a better investment than buying Granaries is. Pachacuti and Machiavelli can make that work.

 

[m_mus]

I have to admit I haven't played this civ because of all the random bits of wall placed all over the place I saw in screenshots. I should give them a try next.

Yeah, exactl my sentiment aesthetically speaking, this just wasn't nice to look at.

 

[Nikolai II]

One of my favorite civs to play as. And they unlock Mongolia, my favorite exploration civ.

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

Great Wall just has too much planning layers.
Improvements needing to go on already made rural tiles is a tall order. Plus you need to line it up.
Miss Civ 6 for the Great Wall.

Fav thing about Han is the synergy of the 3 Chinas
I actually like the Civ switching. Want to see a few more natural progressions mixed with the irregular.

 

[Leucarum]

The first civ in this list that doesn't really excite me to be honest. I've played them a couple of times, and for sure their biggest strength is what they leave behind. A solid set of traditions which you'll use all game, and a decent great wall to load you up with culture and money in exploration... It's decent.

They're good but at the same time feel very bland, and I rarely feel a pull to play them... In antiquity there's 1 civ I dislike (Khmer), 8 Civs I do like, then Han and Rome which I'm just completely neutral on. If they had less competition I might play them more, but for me, they really they suffer by comparison to the civs I could be playing instead. They're in my bottom 3 for antiquity, but that's probably more a reflection of how well designed most of antiquity is than them being bad!

 

[disjointaccount]

I don't dislike Han; for me their biggest problem is that they're outclassed. If I want a scientific antiquity civ, I'm going to have a very hard time being persuaded to choose anything other than Maya. Not just because they're more powerful, but also because they're (imo) more fun.

The unique ability is nice enough; it gets towns online quicker and synergises with the eventual tradition for specialists, and any other specialist boosts you have going if you're leaning into that style of tall play.

Chu-ko-nu is a weird one. Its niche, to me, is sitting inside walls and annihilating anything that tries to besiege the city. Otherwise, sure it does more damage than a regular ranged unit up close, but unless it kills, it still eats way too much damage upon the counterattack. Obviously, the Great Wall and civic tree buffs are intended to mitigate this, but the Wall can't be there when I'm attacking someone else and that's a lot to make a unit (sometimes) work when I could just pack my commander full of cav and be done with it. I'll keep them in my cities to defend, but that's where their niche starts and ends for me.

Shi Dafu is another fine great person. I probably put these slightly below, or on par with, Logios? Similar to Logios, I find them better than Tjatys because they don't suffer from so much timing-specificity that kills the Tjaty's utility due to their randomness. Their boosts are similar too - just nice things that aren't gonna drastically shift my game but that I can count on being helpful enough that I can justify producing a couple in a city that has some time to spare from around mid-age onwards.

I don't love the wall. Again, this is probably in part due to my subjective bias for unique buildings over improvements. +2 culture is by no means terrible from a snowballing perspective; it's just a UI that really wants to be spammed in all my towns and doing so is a very big expense. On paper, I see the appeal of a long/pretty great wall, but in reality I'm never going to favour chasing that dream over improving the best tiles. If I'm planning a mining town, I'm working the rough and vegetated areas, regardless of how tempting a line of whatever random improvements facilitate the best wall may be.

Traditions are solid. As covered extensively last time, I really like a lot of influence, so happy to take anything that gives me more of it. Science on specialists is nice, but +1 on its own honestly doesn't excite me all that much. Yes, you can combine it with Confucious (who definitely feels intended to go hand-in-hand with Han) and the attribute tree unlock for +5 total (not to mention Communism when the time comes), but if that's your strategy, that +1 on its own doesn't make a huge difference whether you have it or not. Plus, Han offers very little by way of food or happiness for cities to help support a tall playstyle. It really feels like a bit of an outlier in their kit.

Grassland bias is good, and combined with the associated Weiyang Palace more or less guarantees it for you if you want it.

There's nothing about Han that makes me think they're bad; it's just that anything they do, someone else does better or in a way that seems more fun to me. If I want science, I'll go Maya. If I want influence, I'll go Greece. If I want to play tall, with Confucious or some other specialist shenanigans, I'll go with Mississipi or, as much as we're constantly bashing them, Khmer does OK in that niche for me. The only reason I play Han is if I sit down for a civ game and think, "huh, I haven't played Han in a while" and actively choose to play them for the sake of playing them. They just lack flavour. @Leucarum more or less hit the nail on the head for me.

 

[MutilationWave]

Great Wall just has too much planning layers.
Improvements needing to go on already made rural tiles is a tall order. Plus you need to line it up.
Miss Civ 6 for the Great Wall.

Fav thing about Han is the synergy of the 3 Chinas
I actually like the Civ switching. Want to see a few more natural progressions mixed with the irregular.

I think this is exactly what we need to maybe get people to not hate switching so much.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The Great Wall is the major negative for the Han to me.

The Great People, the faster early growth, the solid Traditions, the Chu-ko-nu (I was a professional artilleryman for 20 years - I'm ALWAYS in favor of unique ranged units!) are all as good/playable as any other Civs. The problem is their only buildable on-map unique (Great Wall) is both unrealistic and in too many cases, too hard to place to be worth what it provides.

First, because the Great Wall was not placed on rural or any other kind of Improvement: it was placed along whatever borders existed at the time, and frequently in border areas far from any infrastructure - which in turn led to massive loss of life among the builders, because it was so hard to supply them with food and shelter so far from the 'mainland' of the state.

Second, because the Great (or Long) Wall was not built in a 'straight line' - surviving remnants have more curves and bends than a snake with a hinge in it, and because parts were built by numerous separate Chinese states at numerous times within borders that shifted, it doesn't even conform to borders very well.

In short, the Wall placement rules are both unreal and impractical.

My (tentative) solution:

Great Wall tiles can only be placed on tiles that share a Civ border at the moment they are placed. IF that tile also has an Improvement on it, the Improvement is lost with all its bonuses AND the point of population working it (to begin to show the massive loss of life and resources spent building the Wall)

Wall tiles have to be connected, provide +6 defense, provide +2 Culture and +1 Happiness for each adjacent Great Wall segment. It can 'branch or fork' but ONLY as long as each GW tile has a side that is also a Civ Border.

Note, however, that the border can move away from the Great Wall after the GW segments are placed, so that they do not necessarily remain on the 'border tiles'.

 

[Sagax]

My (tentative) solution:

Great Wall tiles can only be placed on tiles that share a Civ border at the moment they are placed. IF that tile also has an Improvement on it, the Improvement is lost with all its bonuses AND the point of population working it (to begin to show the massive loss of life and resources spent building the Wall)

Wall tiles have to be connected, provide +6 defense, provide +2 Culture and +1 Happiness for each adjacent Great Wall segment. It can 'branch or fork' but ONLY as long as each GW tile has a side that is also a Civ Border.

Note, however, that the border can move away from the Great Wall after the GW segments are placed, so that they do not necessarily remain on the 'border tiles'.

Yeah, I suspect this solution would make GW even harder to build than at present, for a much lesser return and a newly introduced risk or losing warehouse bonuses. This may seem flavorful for historical accuracy, but as a game piece would be straight up bad, unless you further buff the numbers.

Historical realism aside, the game designers’s vision for UIs is “they supercharge the rural improvements that they go on top of”. And I doubt a one-off exception for GWs is something they wish to entertain at the moment.

 

[sixty4half]

I've never really been able to get a "perfect" wall either but mountains, lakes, nav rivers and resources pretty much make it impossible anyways. I get several cities with 5-7 length walls or maybe 2 walls 4 long each and the towns usually get 3-5 tiles, continuous or not. That's a big enough bonus that I'm not even looking to replace them until about 60% of the way thru Exploration, if then. Even 3 in a row is +4 happiness.

I guess what I'm saying is; i dont stress about the placement and still find the wall hugely rewarding and worth building where I simply can build it.