Civ IV: good, but plenty of bad

Jayblue21

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
8
I've been up 2 nights in a row now playing off and online. First of all the graphics are very good, the music/sound is decent as well. I'm happy that corruption is gone. Loving the new combat with collateral damage. I think Civ4 beats Civ3 but it definitely needs some changes, which will hopefully come in patches shortly. Here are some things I've noticed that I think could be improved upon-

-First of all the lobby is messed up, the scroll bar is useless so the arrow keys must be used. There is no way to filter out full games, and no way to tell if a game is in progress or brand new that I can tell.

-Windowed mode would really be nice in this type of game, I can't find it.

-It might just be my comp but the volume controls need some adjustment because the different sounds dont come through well at comfortable zoom levels.

-The civilopedia is confusing, I prefer the Civ3 one. Trying to find something in there is like playing wheres waldo with all those icons, except you arent sure what waldo looks like. Also the linking between topics seems lacking.

-Personally I think the right click menu is intuitive for anyone using a computer and should be on by default. Even with it on though, there should be at least as many options as Civ3 provided, or more. What if I want to wake a certain unit, or zoom to the city, without fear of disturbing my fortified units(I know it usually doesn't but that isnt obvious to the player)?

-When in the city detail view the worst thing that stands out to me is the build 'menu'. It's another grid of icons which takes extra time to navigate. In Civ3 if I wanted to build a settler, a barracks, and then a worker I simply: Hold shift and click their names in order from the drop down menu. In Civ4 I find settler by checking the tooltip, ok, now I realize there are no buildings in view...so I scroll down.. check tooltips until I find barracks, okay gotta memorize that one for later... oops forgot too hold shift.. start over..then scroll back up.. anyways you get the point: HORRIBLE!

-When I was looking for games in the lobby I kept joining ones that were already in progres... ugh.. so next time it started loading that kind of game I canceled. When I got back to the lobby my mouse was stuck as a permanent spinning wheel. It stayed this way until I finally was able to launch a game I hosted.

-When logging into the gamespy thing it should at least have an option to save my username and password.

-This is a major one for me. I've played 3 online games where it was obvious I was going to win them. So of course my opponents surrendered when they knew they were beat. Suddenly I lose my urge to play, because they get replaced with AI opponents and I play online so I can play with real humans! I don't want to spend 3 more hours with the comp, I can do that offline. Why is there no option to make it so when a player 'retires' their civilization becomes defeated? I understand why some wouldnt want this, but there should at least be an option!! Out of the all the online games I've played so far(all of them I was going to win) I didn't get to see my ending stats for any of them (which I realllly look forward too) because the humans surrendered and I got stuck with the uninteresting AI.

-I have no graphical lag, my computer runs the game smoothly. Yet, when playing online, even off, the game..the interface.. feels sluggish. The problem becomes exponentially worse when 1 laggy player is in the game it seems. When I click a button I shouldn't have to wait 2 seconds for feedback, when my turn is done the green light should instantly tick red- instead it waits a while without any notification of progress or thinking, then finally slowly fades. It would be okay if a button was depressed instantly, then displayed some notice that it was waiting on something before continuing. I know this isn't vital, but its one of those things that creates frustration, especially when managing/upgrading large armies against a blazing timer.

-I found that occasionally the chat box wouldn't allow me to type in it.This isn't where another dialog has come up that needs your attention (thats another thing.. you should be able to finish your sentence in the chat, then focus on the dialog afterwards), for some reason no letters could be typed into the text field until my next turn. This has happened to me maybe 5 times so far.

-When retiring from an online game it should take you back to the lobby, not the game menu. Then you have to type your name/pass in again, just so you can get into another game(that is in progress no doubt).

-Minor, but occasionally the sprite animation goes in slow motion for some reason.

-If you have a unit selected, and the turn timer forces you into the next turn, it should let you continue with that unit before taking you on a tour of all your cities and asking you what needs to be built. This is especially frustrating with simultaneous turns where you and another player are fighting with large armies and you are about to take a city or make a critical blow. Then after you speed click through all the things you want built, you find your opponent has reinforced the city you should have been able to take.

-Some people have mentioned wanting an ability to kick players.. I can think of some reasons against this but considering the lag and how some players act.. there should probably be an option.

-There should be a more noticeable alert when your town is under siege. I was fighting someone in a narrow strip of land, and found out later that he had taken units in galleys across the bay and destroyed my second largest town. His units were very close to the same color as mine (light purple and dark purple) so I didn't notice him in my town. I know it alerts you if units have died or if they have been spotted near some area, but I had been fighting so much elsewhere that I had learned to ignore the constant battle notices. Some things are just fine tucked away in that corner, but some things should be presented right in your face.

-This isn't really a complaint since it's expected with a Civ game. But since they said this would be a big change I thought I'd point out its not as big as I thought it would be. I noticed that playing a 'quick' game on 'blazing' speed still often takes all night or more. Part of this may be due to the turn timer going down in some new time increment I can only describe as slow seconds. It doesn't help with players constantly joining and leaving the AI slots(which takes a turn in itself it seems). Not to mention the interface that responds when it wants to, not when you want it to.

-If I want to declare war when playing online, it doesnt work to just use 'g' to goto a location on someone elses border. I always have to use the numpad movement or declare war on their name in the lower right.

-I saw a yellow caraval within my purple border, but I wasnt at war and had no open border agreements.. is this normal?

-Most of the advisor screens dont seem to be too helpful, except for the civics one. The technology one is okay but it is kind of hard to find what your looking for amongst the small icons.

-I constantly see people asking how to do things.. like hurry production ("how do you make slaves?" they say).. and with the civilopedia no longer my ally.. I really have no idea how to answer all the questions I see. I think this should be part of the right click menu thing, thats where a lot of players would naturally look first for actions.

-It's probably too early to say this.. and I don't know why I'm saying it, since it would destroy my flawless strategy.. but Praetorians may be overpowered, I know there are axemen.. but I can pump out zillions of my UU very early in the game, and I never have to worry about any other Civs until much later (unless they are roman too).

-oh another lobby oddity.. I'm not sure why the default name for a server is your computers name.. I see JAMES-MAIN or ANDY-COMP and get confused, should have probably been "Jayblue21's game" or something.


There are just as many good things to list or more, but I think its more important to report on what could be improved. I know I could list more little issues but I've been up for 24 hours straight (if my writing seems odd thats probably why). If you're wondering why I went into so much depth its because, first, I love the Civ series and I want to see it improve. Second, I'm a game developer myself so I approach the game from that perspective.

Bring on the patch! Firaxis I'll work for you at no charge to get it out faster, I love the game that much!
 
I agree with most of what your saying, alot of the "small" things need to be fixxed and this game will REALLY shine. Im sure a patch is in the works.
 
Jayblue21 said:
-Windowed mode would really be nice in this type of game, I can't find it.

After all the time they spent "improving" the interface you'd think they'd make it so you could do this without editting the ini file... (The install directory has a link to it. I think it's really in My Documents/My Games/Civ 4 or something.)

-I saw a yellow caraval within my purple border, but I wasnt at war and had no open border agreements.. is this normal?

Caravals (and submarines) are allowed into enemy territory without agreements.

-Most of the advisor screens dont seem to be too helpful, except for the civics one. The technology one is okay but it is kind of hard to find what your looking for amongst the small icons.

Agreed 100%!
 
Thanks quarthinos!

I remembered people have been complaining about crashes too. I thought I'd mention I haven't experienced a single crash. I'm using a radeon 9700 pro.
 
I want to thank you for pointing out what you see as problems, in a clear and calm manner. Very specific, and to the point, it should give the developers a good picture of your problems, :thumbsup:

Not like the usual "Civ4 sucks because it's not Civ3.5!" that we usually see. ;)
 
Haha thanks. You should see my game forums they have the same kind of crap.

If I could only have a few of these things fixed up in the next patch they would have to be in order of importance:

-An option to make a retired player a defeated player
-General game sluggishness, lag and interface
-The lobby issues
-Simpler build menu, drop-down or similar
 
Jayblue - re Windowed Mode. Edit this line in the Civilization4.ini:

; Specify whether to play in fullscreen mode 0/1/ask
FullScreen = ask

I set it to 'ask' this way a prompt comes up when you start the game so you can choose windowed or Full Screen. I'd like to note that running in Windowed seems to use less resources - and has almost entirely eliminated the stutter issues in the movies.

You can still have it full screen-like by maximizing the window.
 
The thing I miss the most is the right click menu on the cities. It was very quick and easy to change production (using text not images no less) and very easy to select as many or as few fortified units as you wanted. For example moving four of the six units fortified in a city in C4 is a pretty frustrating experience.

There could very well be a better way to do this than the way I'm doing it, again since I'm so new to this game. I seem to constantly be learning new ways of doing things here so maybe I'll stumble upon the solution one of these days.

Not a gripe, I can get along without it. It would just be nice to have is all.
 
Jayblue21 said:
-The civilopedia is confusing, I prefer the Civ3 one. Trying to find something in there is like playing wheres waldo with all those icons, except you arent sure what waldo looks like. Also the linking between topics seems lacking.
Complete agree with you on that. I've had a tough time trying to navigate through the civilopedia. In one view it just shows the picture of the units, and I still haven't played the game enough to recognize units by name. Yes, they are alphabetically arranged but it would be really nice if they had a list of names that I could just go through..

-When in the city detail view the worst thing that stands out to me is the build 'menu'. It's another grid of icons which takes extra time to navigate. In Civ3 if I wanted to build a settler, a barracks, and then a worker I simply: Hold shift and click their names in order from the drop down menu. In Civ4 I find settler by checking the tooltip, ok, now I realize there are no buildings in view...so I scroll down.. check tooltips until I find barracks, okay gotta memorize that one for later... oops forgot too hold shift.. start over..then scroll back up.. anyways you get the point: HORRIBLE!

One problem I had with the build menu is that removing the item that is currently building is non-intuitive.. at least for me. I figured out that clicking on it removes it, but wouldt it hurt too much to have a little 'X' icon or something next to it?
 
I fully agree here! I especially support the following points:

-Civilopedia - it was so much better in Civ3 (especially links)
-City build menu - covered in above posts
-Advisor screens - again in Civ3 they were much more hepful
-Also it would help if you could get context-sensitive civilopedia entries (like in Civ3 again). Maybe it's possible but I just haven't found it?
-Give an option to use non-numpad arrow keys, pgup,pgdn,home and end for unit movement. This would be especially helpful for those of us who got used to it in Civ1,Civ2,Civ3 and have laptops without numpads.

Apart from this, a great game!
 
fishlore said:
The thing I miss the most is the right click menu on the cities. It was very quick and easy to change production (using text not images no less) and very easy to select as many or as few fortified units as you wanted. For example moving four of the six units fortified in a city in C4 is a pretty frustrating experience.

There could very well be a better way to do this than the way I'm doing it, again since I'm so new to this game. I seem to constantly be learning new ways of doing things here so maybe I'll stumble upon the solution one of these days.

Not a gripe, I can get along without it. It would just be nice to have is all.

Me too. I'm gonna do what you do and play the game a whole bunch more and see if there's simply a better way to do what I am trying to do. It's a different game after all. But damn I am used to right-clicking on things!
 
Another night of playing, and a few more things to add. I just have high standards for Civ4!

-I heard someone mention that white column icon in the lobby means the game is in progress.. not many people know this because there is no label anywhere that I can see.

-Various problems hosting a few games tonight:
--The first game was started with 7 players and an out of sync error flashed on everyones screen. I had seen this before but this time it stayed on the screen and it really was out of sync. Many of us were playing different versions of the game so I decided to rehost. When I clicked exit to main menu everyone's computer froze at that point. I had to restart, and when I got back in the lobby didn't have many people in it. Maybe a crash/reboot on gamespy's end?
--I hosted another game and it froze shortly after starting for some reason, I was able to force quit.
--When setting up the next game I clicked 'Launch' and the spinning indicator went on for about a minute not allowing me to do anything before it finally loaded, most the players had left by that time though.

-No way to scroll using the screen edges in windowed mode, this makes it too annoying to use for me.

-When players leave or get kicked the new ones that come in can halt the game for a whole turn depending on their computers ability to load the data. This is very annoying to everyone when it happens every 5 turns. It would be nice if the bulk of this loading could be streamed in the background. Then, as the player enters, only halt the game for a very short amount of time while verifying the synchonization of the game state.

-Players can join a slot that has already been defeated with a score of 0! I'm amazed that this was overlooked. Something as frustrating as this combined with the slow load is probably scaring a lot of online players away.

-One game was going well for a long time when a sync error popped up halfway through and stayed there for about 20 turns before we realized how out of sync it actually was. Rejoining the game fixed things, but for an error like that to happen in the first place is unacceptable. Note: Sometimes the sync error flashes(If it must happen, at least make it go with the music geez), sometimes it stays permanently on the screen.

-A friend mentioned that I show as offline on his buddy list when I host a game.

-The voting to continue/wait screen shows chat messages with html type parameter tags left unparsed.

-Out of all the games Ive played, no matter how many players, I always win. Praetorians definitely seem overpowered to me. Or maybe I'm just too skilled? (=

-Concerning the 'What would you like to build?' dialog I've realized that what I really want to be able to do: Queue up units right there! That would be a killer feature for me to just be able to hold shift and let that city work for me for a while. Using the queue currently is impossible in a quick game with many cities- you need to memorize every city that you come across so you can zoom in later, and it's time consuming and disconnects you from the action. In my games It's common to have at least 10 cities all making praetorians with 1-3 turns in between each build, I usually dont get enough time to manage my huge army after clicking through all the city dialogs and promoting all the new units.

On a positive note the lag and sluggishness tonight wasn't as bad as the other nights. It shows that this game didn't get adequate multiplayer testing, but it's getting it now at least. I wont be playing online anymore until a patch comes out that fixes these frustrating issues. I'm hoping this will happen within a month, but the online portion of the game almost seems alpha..so I have no idea really. Everything aside, it's still the best Civ yet.. although I've only played 1,3, and freeciv(which is kinda like 2 I hear?).
 
I agree to an extent.

My biggest gripe with Civ IV is the new UI design :( I find it enormous and untuitive, for once I understand how some Gnome users feel about KDE ( though I disagree it's to such an extent ) everything seems thrown all over the place, what's there is freaking enormous and I feel that it could be space better used.

I really liked how in Civ III the advisor windows were tabbed based and laid out extremely well. They were compact and robust.

It seems they've fallen for the horrible mantra of fisher-price computing. :(

I'm a new comer to Civ IV though, and isn't the GUI supposed to be moddable? To what an extent I don't know, but maybe this could be fixed.
 
I played and finished a tiny world scenario and i like the game a lot. There's a lot of room for improvement. But on the other hand it's obvious that the game was not ready for release as it's full of bugs. Half of my initial wonders were already obsolete by the time i built them.
In-game graphics are good, on the other hand every other graphic sucks. There are no advisor graphics (could be modded by us). Diplomacy screen is chaotic as well as other side screens. Civ III interface is ten times better plus very user-friendly. I couldn't get to see Diplomacy Victory video (if there is one). End game graphics and interface are still behind Civ III.
But again, these are all moddable, and the main concept is ok, and we definately have more options, so i'll just be patient and wait for the patches and mods.
 
Jayblue21 said:
-I have no graphical lag, my computer runs the game smoothly. Yet, when playing online, even off, the game..the interface.. feels sluggish. The problem becomes exponentially worse when 1 laggy player is in the game it seems. When I click a button I shouldn't have to wait 2 seconds for feedback, when my turn is done the green light should instantly tick red- instead it waits a while without any notification of progress or thinking, then finally slowly fades. It would be okay if a button was depressed instantly, then displayed some notice that it was waiting on something before continuing. I know this isn't vital, but its one of those things that creates frustration, especially when managing/upgrading large armies against a blazing timer.

This problem is the MOST annoying for me --- I really hate it. I've changed my resolution 10,000 times and played with all the graphics options only to learn that it isn't my computers fault at all. When I exit the game and go to windows (where I click and something happens immediatly), its like I'm emancipated. I'd really like to see an option allowing me to control the scroll rate as well.
 
Yeah there are a lot of minor issues hanging around. Few wouldn't be annoying but in this case they can be due to the number of them. Granted I admit that I could be missing some options or other things that mitigate them since I just started. Here are two issues that I noticed:

-The event screen in the upper left is hard often hard to read and in combination with the fact that it has so much going on you can easily miss major events like the fact that I took over an opposing city via culture. I've taken cities and not known it until I happen to run across it on the map Hey that's mine? :wow:

-When there are numerous units in one space and they are set to sentry there’s no way to tell how many there are (or even if there is more than one) without doing a mouse over. Granted that’s not hard to do but in Civ III they had the handy set of small bars next to the units meaning you could tell that there are numerous units on that tile at a glance. Maybe I’m missing something else but it seems crazy that feature didn’t come along from Civ III, it was very handy.
 
Almost sure patch will solve most of that small annoyance. Just now most of all I'm annoyed by abcense of Random Seed(like original pre-patch CivIII wich looked like crap) and that you have to move away mouse away from menu after you saw one of promotions to see another.
 
Civilopedia
it should be fatter than before but now it is thinner and confusing~
it really takes me a while to find out where the Civilopedia is such a puny question mark~
 
duxup said:
-The event screen in the upper left is hard often hard to read and in combination with the fact that it has so much going on you can easily miss major events like the fact that I took over an opposing city via culture. I've taken cities and not known it until I happen to run across it on the map Hey that's mine? :wow:
:lol: that exact same thing happened to me, what a crap city it was to!! :) Is there a way to scroll back over these events?
 
duxup said:
-When there are numerous units in one space and they are set to sentry there’s no way to tell how many there are (or even if there is more than one) without doing a mouse over. Granted that’s not hard to do but in Civ III they had the handy set of small bars next to the units meaning you could tell that there are numerous units on that tile at a glance. Maybe I’m missing something else but it seems crazy that feature didn’t come along from Civ III, it was very handy.

This is a really good observation. In Civ4 moving huge armies in stacks still happens all the time, despite the collateral damage addition. If you see one enemy unit next to your borders it doesn't seem threatening at all.. but then if you bother to move your mouse over it you see it's actually 15 units of doom that are obviously marching towards your capitol. With the big push for making everything visible 'right on the map' you'd think they would have done something for this.

I'm not sure if it would be too graphically intensive, but an easy solution would be to use the grouped units mode view for large stacks. You know when you select grouped goto mode with a stack and it shows a group of a few 3-person units huddled in one tile? This would be a huge improvement.

The numbers could be adjusted like this for example-

1 unit - 1 group
2-4 units - 2 groups
5-10 units - 3 groups
11+ - 4 groups
 
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