Civ Names that Evolve over Time

[Gaius Octavius]

I always just thought the English became the British simply because they are still the same race, namely the Anglo-Saxons, and hence the same civilization in civ terms. Not really dependent on the monarchy.

But you reminded me of something: how would everybody feel about changing the civ title with civics? (This can be a separate mod.)
I remember back in Civ 2, if you were running republic/democracy, your civ was called "Republic of the Romans" for instance. If you changed to communism, it became "People's Republic of the [...]", fundamentalism was Holy [...] Empire, and so on. Your leader title also changed, e.g. Imperator Caesar, King Hammurabi, Archbishop Frederick, and my personal favorite, "Reverend" Lincoln of the Americans.

I'd also kind of like to see these naming conventions make a comeback.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

Yay! that would be great if it could be implemented.

A merging of the two would make me very happy indeed ^_^

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Well, it sounds pretty easy to do. We'd just link it to civics, mostly government civics.

Despotism/Police State = Empire of the [...]
Hereditary rule = Kingdom of the [...]
Representation/Universal Suffrage = Republic of [...]
State Property = People's Republic of [...]

A nice addition would be to create a few special names, like in Civ 2. For instance, the special tag for fundamentalism for the American leader was "reverend", and the tag for republican Rome was "consul". We could take this a step further and apply it to civ titles too, so you don't get "People's Republic of Russia," but instead, "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics."

 

[Mozza]

I always just thought the English became the British simply because they are still the same race, namely the Anglo-Saxons, and hence the same civilization in civ terms. Not really dependent on the monarchy.

No the British are not just the Angles and the Saxons, modern Britain also incorporates the Scottish and the Welsh, the British Danes, as well as the Britons and some of the Irish.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Ah, you are right. I forgot about the Norman invasion and the rest. What I meant to say was that the modern distinction between English and British is really more one of boundaries than it is ethnic difference (in part because of the inclusion of the other peoples), right?

Question: aren't the original Britons and the Welsh basically the same people? Or am I confusing something? I remember reading recently that when the Roman troops left Britain in 410 AD, the Germanic Saxons were brought over as mercenaries to fight against the Picts, but they decided to take a chunk of the island for themselves. Thereafter, the Romano-Britons were pushed into Western Britannia and Wales, and their descendants became the Welsh. I have to admit I don't know my British history nearly as well as I would like.

 

[Shqype]

This is a great idea, and it's something I remember speaking about in a thread before, but it still hasn't been created into a useful modcomp for all people to use... any idea when we can expect a working, finished product to be released?

 

[Zebra 9]

Well I'm getting closer to being able to change the name of a leader, I'm going slow because it will be the first time I ever use C++.

 

[Mozza]

Ah, you are right. I forgot about the Norman invasion and the rest. What I meant to say was that the modern distinction between English and British is really more one of boundaries than it is ethnic difference (in part because of the inclusion of the other peoples), right?

Question: aren't the original Britons and the Welsh basically the same people? Or am I confusing something? I remember reading recently that when the Roman troops left Britain in 410 AD, the Germanic Saxons were brought over as mercenaries to fight against the Picts, but they decided to take a chunk of the island for themselves. Thereafter, the Romano-Britons were pushed into Western Britannia and Wales, and their descendants became the Welsh. I have to admit I don't know my British history nearly as well as I would like.

The Welsh are original Britons, as are the Cornish, many Roman Britons fled forming Brittany in modern France. That said, ethnically many Britons remained, they simply adapted to Saxon culture.

When the Romans pulled out they took all their military with them, essentially leaving the Roman section undefended. The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes took advatage of the good, undefended land, and invaded. There is talk that the Celts and the Britons asked them to drive the Romans out but I find that unlikely in all but a few cases. It's likely they did not try to intervene because theu saw fellow pagans as prefereable to Christian Romans. Many Britons simply adapted to Anglo-Saxon culture and merged with them.Pictland, Scotia (and Scotia Minor), the Welsh Kingdons and the Irish Kingdoms still had their warriors so the Anglo-Saxons didn't penetrate there. Many Saxons settled in Caledonia, but rather than conquering, they adapted to local ways and pretty much became Scottish and Pictish. The various kingdoms that identified themself as Saxon, along with Cornwall (which was still British) were the ones that were united by Alfred The Great when England Formed in the 9th Century. The irish drove the Scots out of Ireland, causing the Scotts of Scotia minor to drop the "minor" and become Scotland, the various Welsh Kingdoms merged becoming Wales.

A Study was done a few years ago, it showed, surprisingly, that ethnically England and Scotland are pretty much identical, with just as much (proportianally) Scottish in England and Saxon in Scotland,and an equal amount of Nordic. Wales is still largely Celtic, as is (The Republic of) Ireland, with the exception of the Dublin area which has a lot of Nordic. There were some odd little exceptions such as about 5 square miles in Lancashire that is almost entirely Nordic.

Ethnicity aside, there are massive cultural differences throughout the isles, and enough differences between England and Scotland that, although they work well enough together within the United Kingdom, it would be distasteful to suggest that England and Britain are one and the same.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

From a historical view, yes, I think it is 'distasteful' to refer to England and Britain as the same. From a civ point of view, however, I think it is OK.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

I had another idea, so long as we're talking about things that change with time... how about leaderheads? No, I'm not asking for this to be fully implemented, as that would require lots of artwork... However, I would like to see if Zebra 9 can set up the tags so that later artists can come along and do this.

Short of that, how about leaderhead backgrounds that change with eras? (Probably easier to code.)

 

[Chuggi]

I had another idea, so long as we're talking about things that change with time... how about leaderheads? No, I'm not asking for this to be fully implemented, as that would require lots of artwork... However, I would like to see if Zebra 9 can set up the tags so that later artists can come along and do this.

Short of that, how about leaderhead backgrounds that change with eras? (Probably easier to code.)

Good idea, like Civ III. The artwork wouldn't be too hard as long as the artist was determined. You could just retexture leaders for each era and add new items (hats, glasses etc.) Or do you mean actual different real life leaders? In that case it would be better to use static pictures and the name of the leader would have to change with each era. I think I'd prefer the Civ III way.

But I want all the attention focussed on the flags changing for each era for now

Any awesome coders thinking about this idea?

 

[Gaius Octavius]

No, I just meant evolving leader art over time. But it would be nice to script actual leader changes too, although I suspect that's more in the realm of python, and not simply an XML tag like we're talking about here.

While we're on the subject of art, how would you feel about making an Abraham Lincoln 3D LH, Chugginator? I have him implemented already, but no LH.

 

[Chuggi]

Hmm I think he would be too hard to make. I think it would be difficult to make any of the current LeaderHeads to look remotely like him. Plus they already have the American LH I like in the game Roosevelt - I don't really like Abraham.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

I know what you mean--as somebody said, "he's got cheekbones from hell"! I was actually looking at Julius Caesar last night, and I noticed that he seems to have similar facial features to Abe (minus the beard), including the high cheekbones... so I've thought about trying to mod him, but it seems really hard. Plus, Abe Lincoln with Julius' thumbs-up gestures would be weird.

 

[Hangly Man]

While you're at it, you should make the flags change over time as well. A nifty imperial crest for heredetary rule, big red banners for state property, and some gay-ass stripes for liberal democracies. (Sorry Europe, but the stripes are lame.)

Edit: so beaten

Anyway, don't make it change over time, make it change with whatever civics you're using. That way you could have (say) a fascist England reverting back to the three lions banner or something, as fascist states are apt to do. Also it can give the player an immediate heads up as to where different civs are in the game, whether they're on war footing and about to kick your ass, etc.

Think of the country-civic combinations that haven't ever actually happened. Like a communist Japan, or a fascist USA. A person could have a lot of fun with that.

Actually, *I* would have a lot of fun with that. I'm a professional graphic designer, so if anyone wants any help designing several hundred flags I would be happy to do that.

I should just do it and post them, huh. I'll start now

 

[Chuggi]

While you're at it, you should make the flags change over time as well. A nifty imperial crest for heredetary rule, big red banners for state property, and some gay-ass stripes for liberal democracies. (Sorry Europe, but the stripes are lame.)

Edit: so beaten

Anyway, don't make it change over time, make it change with whatever civics you're using. That way you could have (say) a fascist England reverting back to the three lions banner or something, as fascist states are apt to do. Also it can give the player an immediate heads up as to where different civs are in the game, whether they're on war footing and about to kick your ass, etc.

Think of the country-civic combinations that haven't ever actually happened. Like a communist Japan, or a fascist USA. A person could have a lot of fun with that.

Actually, *I* would have a lot of fun with that. I'm a professional graphic designer, so if anyone wants any help designing several hundred flags I would be happy to do that.

I should just do it and post them, huh. I'll start now

Interesting idea with the flags, however I would prefer all real ones for each era (with america, just have their first flag for ancient era).

Although, it would be cool to see a swastika superimposed over an american flag though or an english cross with a communist hammer and sickle in the top right hand corner.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Ah, yes, the People's Republic of Amerika! Moronika uber alles! Sounds interesting, although I also prefer historical flag changes, for now. If we get the coding template done, we can pretty much mix and match later on.

 

[Hangly Man]

Ah, yes, the People's Republic of Amerika! Moronika uber alles! Sounds interesting, although I also prefer historical flag changes, for now. If we get the coding template done, we can pretty much mix and match later on.

Super, I'm just gonna make an assload of flags and you code wizards can implement them however you like (or not.)

At any rate, 100% realism is impossible, because CivIV is not realistic. There was no "ancient" Japan, Turkey, Mongolia or America, for example, and many non-western countries before the colonial age didn't really use flags (you can see how the Egyptian flag in CivIV is a complete fabrication, for example.)

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Ah, yes, the People's Republic of Amerika! Moronika uber alles! Sounds interesting, although I also prefer historical flag changes, for now. If we get the coding template done, we can pretty much mix and match later on.

Just realized I did something very silly: mixed Communism with Fascism.

 

[Mozza]

Anyway, don't make it change over time, make it change with whatever civics you're using. That way you could have (say) a fascist England reverting back to the three lions banner or something, as fascist states are apt to do. Also it can give the player an immediate heads up as to where different civs are in the game, whether they're on war footing and about to kick your ass, etc.

Think of the country-civic combinations that haven't ever actually happened. Like a communist Japan, or a fascist USA. A person could have a lot of fun with that.

I like this idea, maybe it would be possible to freeze them as you go into the modern era and flags become more symbolic of the nations history than what it now stands for?