Civ3 or Civ4

I like both Civ 3 and 4, but I like 4 more. They're both great games, and there are things about both of them that I like more than the other. Civ 3 was more humorous, but Civ 4 has (in my opinion) better gameplay.
 
Civ 3 / Civ 4:

Fun: For me Civ 3 is much more fun to play than Civ 4. From time to time I test new Civ 4 mods, especially epic mods to see, what´s now the "state of fun" in Civ 4. With the last new Civ 4 mod I tried, it was the first time I had the "one more turn feeling" in Civ 4 - but only for a shorter time, than it became boring again. During the "fun part" In that game I was in war from the first turns of gameplay until I eliminated all enemies on my continent. But also this was not the same kind of fun I have in Civ 3.

Graphics: A lot of people say, the graphics in Civ 4 would be better than in Civ 3. Some people, among them me, are saying, the graphics of Civ 4 are very ugly compared to the graphics of Civ 3.

May be it´s necessary to have a closer look what is meant here. Civ 4 has animated waves at the beaches and rivers, when a terrain improvement is used by a citizen, that improvement is animated (for example smoke coming out of the chimney of a mine) and when walking through forests, birds are escaping from you - but: These animations can only be seen if you have a certain factor of zooming-in, and this degree of zooming-in is for a game, that focuses on a strategic scale of gameplay, next to useless.

On the other hand most of the Civ 4 units in my eyes are looking ugly and if they are zoomed in (a feature that doesn´t exist in Civ 3 gameplay) they are looking even more ugly. Why? Because they must use low polygone graphics, due to the 3d-engine used in Civ 4. Wouldn´t you look somewhat "ill", too, if every second atom in your body would be missing?

The modded terrain graphics in Civ 4 themselves (without the animations) in my eyes are not very impressing, compared to the modded terrain graphics for Civ 3. Especially the mountains in Blue Marble are not looking very convincing to me.

Combat: So this belongs to the section "fun", a lot of Civ 4 supporters have a tendency to focus out here a special advantage of Civ 4. In Civ 4 there are some additional flags for units in combat that are added to the stone-paper-scissors-principle. These flags exist since Civ 2 (pikemen flag). They were not used in Civ 3. Why? Civ 3 has a special system allowing to set special attack targets for every land- and seaunit, called "stealth attack". In C3C and in most mods this feature was never used well, as most Civ 3 modders didn´t recognize, that this flag is only working, if a stack contains at least two allowed targets for a "stealth attack". The development in stealth attack, if there is only one allowed target in a stack, was cancelled due to the development of Civ 4.

A propos stacks: The suicide catapults in Civ 4 in my eyes are an "unworthy" solution to that problem for programmers, who have access to the source code. I think the approach in Civ 3 to that problem (for civers who consider monsterstacks a problem) was much more subtile: A special kind of bombardement, that has a a chance of hitting each unit in a square and diminishing the value of defense for those hitten units by 50 % for that round of combat (if a unit was hit by that kind of bombardement no further reduction in the value of defense was possible in that turn).
The programmers in C3C named that function "charm attack" (please don´t ask me why). It is in Civ 3 and can be brought to function with a special editor, but the images and sounds for such an bombardement are not there (or were not found yet). The development on charm attack was stopped due to the development of Civ 4.

Firaxis and 2K did´nt give us the source code of Civ 3 -not even to repair some selfmade glitches by Firaxis like the submarine bug- as it seems they are well aware, that Civ 3, especially if all these options are in full function, is a much better game than Civ 4 (and Civ 5).

Civ4_greetings.JPG
 
My question is this: I wonder if I should try to get into Civ4 or just stick with Civ3. Any input or opinions welcome.
I've fiddled a bit with Civ 4 but have stuck with Civ 3 for these reasons:

  1. The screen in Civ 4 seems cluttered with too much data. It functions like a Heads Up Display and I'm not sure if I like that. I have learned to use it.
  2. Zoom-in is neat once and then a pain.
  3. Not sure how to use Great People wisely. And I haven't really studied the matter, either, so not the game's fault but mine.
  4. The combat animation is like the zoom function; appealing once and then a waste.
  5. I also dislke the need to have certain techs to use luxury resources. Strategic resources, sure, that makes sense. But I need to know about Plantations before I can get any happy factors from Silk?
  6. I have some personal goals to achieve in Civ 3 relating to the Hall of Fame games.
  7. I'm not willing, right now, to learn Civ 4 like I think I've learned Civ 3.

The last two are the main reasons I still play Civ 3. And until I reach my HOF goals, I don't see myself being willing to man-up and tackle the Civ 4 learning curve.

The first reasons are minor, I know, but they were enough to deter the early 'gee-whiz neato!' factor of Civ 4.
 
I've fiddled a bit with Civ 4 but have stuck with Civ 3 for these reasons:

  1. The screen in Civ 4 seems cluttered with too much data. It functions like a Heads Up Display and I'm not sure if I like that. I have learned to use it.
  2. Zoom-in is neat once and then a pain.
  3. Not sure how to use Great People wisely. And I haven't really studied the matter, either, so not the game's fault but mine.
  4. The combat animation is like the zoom function; appealing once and then a waste.
  5. I also dislke the need to have certain techs to use luxury resources. Strategic resources, sure, that makes sense. But I need to know about Plantations before I can get any happy factors from Silk?
  6. I have some personal goals to achieve in Civ 3 relating to the Hall of Fame games.
  7. I'm not willing, right now, to learn Civ 4 like I think I've learned Civ 3.

The last two are the main reasons I still play Civ 3. And until I reach my HOF goals, I don't see myself being willing to man-up and tackle the Civ 4 learning curve.

The first reasons are minor, I know, but they were enough to deter the early 'gee-whiz neato!' factor of Civ 4.

1. In Civ 4 there is more data to keep track of. You have to monitor your diplomacy (seldom do that in III). You have to specialize cities, watch out for Espionage and have more options in building.
2. Turn off combat animation. You're right, nice once or twice and then a time-wasting irritation.
3. Similar to 1 - more to learn.
5. Irritating, true. One more factor to consider in decision making.

7 is an important one, I agree. There is a lot to learn if you are still enjoying III. III also runs faster on most computers. On my computer III on large maps isn't a problem. Large maps on IV I might be waiting for a minute or two between turns late in the game.
 
I also dislke the need to have certain techs to use luxury resources. Strategic resources, sure, that makes sense. But I need to know about Plantations before I can get any happy factors from Silk?

Depending on the Lux and the Tech, I can sort of see this. For example, needing Plantations to get Happiness from Silk makes a certain amount of sense to me. Plantations are, essentially, industrialized farms. Silk is relatively uncommon to rare naturally - you have to mass-produce it to get enough of it to benefit anyone besides those who are already fabulously rich. So, until you have the ability to mass produce silk (via industrialized agriculture from Plantations) you can't produce enough Silk to appease enough citizens to affect Happiness.

Granted it's a rationalization, and I don't know how it works for everything, but it's not too out of the park. I agree it sounds like something that would get irritating, though, especially if you're used to playing a game where you get the benefits as soon as you hook up the resource.
 
I've fiddled a bit with Civ 4 but have stuck with Civ 3 for these reasons:

  1. The screen in Civ 4 seems cluttered with too much data. It functions like a Heads Up Display and I'm not sure if I like that. I have learned to use it.
  2. Zoom-in is neat once and then a pain.
  3. Not sure how to use Great People wisely. And I haven't really studied the matter, either, so not the game's fault but mine.
  4. The combat animation is like the zoom function; appealing once and then a waste.
  5. I also dislke the need to have certain techs to use luxury resources. Strategic resources, sure, that makes sense. But I need to know about Plantations before I can get any happy factors from Silk?
  6. I have some personal goals to achieve in Civ 3 relating to the Hall of Fame games.
  7. I'm not willing, right now, to learn Civ 4 like I think I've learned Civ 3.

The last two are the main reasons I still play Civ 3. And until I reach my HOF goals, I don't see myself being willing to man-up and tackle the Civ 4 learning curve.

The first reasons are minor, I know, but they were enough to deter the early 'gee-whiz neato!' factor of Civ 4.

I agree with nearly all of these -- I don't have any HOF ambitions, though.

1. The designers of Civ4 made a conscious decision to put lots of information in the main display, like a heads-up display. Zoom in to see what buildings/improvements are in the city ... I think it works for cities you are about to invade, as well.
3. Great People are definitely an area where I need improvement as well. From what I've read in the Civ4 forums, they can be very strategic.
7. This is so, so true. There are key differences in the tech tree, that I keep forgetting. What's the slingshot again? Oh, archers are defense now, not offense. I need to spend a month playing just Civ4, to get my head straight. If you try to play Civ4 using the same general Civ principles from Civ2 and Civ3 -- e.g., keep expanding, build roads, improve the land, lots of research -- you will have fun. Just not a LOT of fun. If I take the time to reboot my brain for Civ4's specialties, I end up with a better empire and more fun.

I found it pretty easy to play a builder strategy in Civ4, last year when I played it off and on. If you adopt the religion of a neighbor, or convert a neighbor to your religion, you can have centuries of peaceful trading. The options for city improvements are more varied, and more inviting for city specialization. I have not played the expansions yet, so I can't comment on how Great Generals work, or whether corporations are a good idea or not.
 
Don't know about "kid's game" but you're right, IV is more of a builders game. With easier resource trading I don't go to war as much in IV. In III I often feel compelled to go to war to get luxuries. I remember several IV games where I didn't go to war or only went to war once. In CivIII I'm at war a lot.

Kid's game in the sense of the cheesy graphics and the way warfare was simplified to games of the early 90's. The rest of the game was a step down also. I mean, you have hunter-gatherers (your basic first settler unit) needing to research hunting?

Jesus.

The rest of the game followed that same pattern of garbage to make a very cheesy and backward game appear something other than cash cow. The developers/publishers have not since changed their "used car salesman" tune. That's one of the things that amuses me most about the Civ4 fanboys whining about Civ5, fans of a very dumbed down game complaining about another very dumbed down game.

(BTW, the I am not implying anything about you in this)
 
Kid's game in the sense of the cheesy graphics and the way warfare was simplified to games of the early 90's. The rest of the game was a step down also. I mean, you have hunter-gatherers (your basic first settler unit) needing to research hunting?

Jesus.

The rest of the game followed that same pattern of garbage to make a very cheesy and backward game appear something other than cash cow. The developers/publishers have not since changed their "used car salesman" tune. That's one of the things that amuses me most about the Civ4 fanboys whining about Civ5, fans of a very dumbed down game complaining about another very dumbed down game.

(BTW, the I am not implying anything about you in this)

It does all come down to what one wants. With all the elements I don't think CivIV was "dumbed down". A lot of people do like it. CivV does actually have more in common with III than IV, I believe. Haven't tried V, read the reviews (pro and con) and decided to wait. Besides, I'm not sure my computer could handle it. A lot of people prefer IV including a lot of good former III players.

Warfare is certainly different, especially regarding how siege works. I agree regarding siege war (siege very important in both), CivIII's siege makes more sense than IV. To me, the biggest difference was diplomacy and less war.
 
I vastly prefer Civ3 to Civ4. I never played Civ3 with the expansions, but getting fed up with Civ4 was what made me finally go out and find a copy of Civ3 Complete so I could get back into it.

I think the biggest deal-breaker for me was the way siege weapons were handled. Having them as more or less suicide weapons made absolutely no sense to me.

Also, warfare just felt off. In Civ3, I would try to employ something of a front line, fortify my border, etc. etc. In Civ4, that didn't seem nearly as feasible and it usually just came down to a battle to the death between two or more super stacks.

I have many fond memories in Civ3 playing on a large Earth map. Civ4 never even came close for me.
 
It does all come down to what one wants. With all the elements I don't think CivIV was "dumbed down". A lot of people do like it. CivV does actually have more in common with III than IV, I believe. Haven't tried V, read the reviews (pro and con) and decided to wait. Besides, I'm not sure my computer could handle it. A lot of people prefer IV including a lot of good former III players.

Warfare is certainly different, especially regarding how siege works. I agree regarding siege war (siege very important in both), CivIII's siege makes more sense than IV. To me, the biggest difference was diplomacy and less war.

I have not tried Civ5 either, and probably wont try it unless I play it over at a friend's who does have it. I wont allow the steam malware on my computer. But what you say about it matches what I've read.

With the Civ4, the combat was completely dumbed down, not just sieges. Naval and air were a joke. That whole portion of the game was unenjoyable. Now if they had substantially improved dip and econ relations and had made the development of the civs much more interesting, I could have accepted the loss of the militaristic portion of the game. But those things were not very much better than what was in Civ3. Some of the Civ4 changes like religion and corporations were garbage and in no way related to real history. Nor did they make the game enjoyable, they just made it more cheesy. The whole way the game is set up is cheesy. I already wrote how they had hunter-gatherers needing to research hunting. That crap is throughout the game. It's obvious a lot of it is just cheesy game mechanics to try and give the impression the game has more depth, when it's just more hoops the player needs to jump through. From my limited experience playing the game, most of these builder changes in Civ4 don't really make the game more interesting, just more tedious. Had the game mechanics represented history better, instead of just being a cheesy way to try and make a rather simple, shallow and bland strategy game appear more sophisticated than it was, I might have gotten interested in the game. Instead, I found myself constantly annoyed with how aspects were implemented and with the general tedium of it as a whole.

I understand that a lot of the Firaxis cheese was modded out in some mods, but I never got around to trying any of these since I don't own the game and had played it at a friend's. From what I've seen by others commenting on these mods, they probably made the game a 100x more playable, like mods to Civ3 have.
 
Every once in awhile I'll play C3C and remind myself why I like BTS better. No corruption, opposing civs actually respect your borders, religion, great people, much more difficult culture flipping, corporations.

C3C was a good game for its time, but BTS is better in every way.
 
I must admit that tresspassing AIs are my biggest pet peeve in C3C. But I didn't like Open Borders in Civ 4 either. It made sense for trade but for units it was the same as ROP in C3C.

I want to be able to attack tresspassers after they have been in my land for a bit and not start a war. Attack 'em, bribe 'em, convert 'em; just something to make them go away without incident.

(The mod CCM does allow attacks by invisible units, which is nice!)
 
What I thought would be a good idea is that you are by default allowed to trespass without an RoP, but you can choose to "close borders" to certain civs - so they aren't allowed to move any units through.
 
  1. The screen in Civ 4 seems cluttered with too much data. It functions like a Heads Up Display and I'm not sure if I like that. I have learned to use it.
  2. Zoom-in is neat once and then a pain.
  3. Not sure how to use Great People wisely. And I haven't really studied the matter, either, so not the game's fault but mine.
  4. The combat animation is like the zoom function; appealing once and then a waste.
  5. I also dislke the need to have certain techs to use luxury resources. Strategic resources, sure, that makes sense. But I need to know about Plantations before I can get any happy factors from Silk?
  6. I have some personal goals to achieve in Civ 3 relating to the Hall of Fame games.
  7. I'm not willing, right now, to learn Civ 4 like I think I've learned Civ 3.

Exactly. I actually uninstalled my C4 after week long tryout. Just wasn't fun. I understand they've debugged it sense, so I bought a cheap Civ4 Complete CD out of a bargain bin this past winter. I will try it again, but not till the summer time.
 
Exactly. I actually uninstalled my C4 after week long tryout. Just wasn't fun. I understand they've debugged it sense, so I bought a cheap Civ4 Complete CD out of a bargain bin this past winter. I will try it again, but not till the summer time.

BTS improves CivIV, but unfortunately, not in the ways you want. Most of the things people have complained about in this thread are still in CivIV. There's even more info to keep track of (Espionage), being booted out in case of war (which I like, others don't), Siege (isn't lethal in BTS). Needing techs for resources didn't change either.

I always Open Borders in CivIV, never sign Right of Passage in III. ROP-Rape has a lot (everything?) to do with that.

I wouldn't have high hopes of you liking it. The basic way the game is structured didn't change.
 
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