Civ4 Preview at Next Level Gaming

[JavalTigar]

I agree with Ivan. Public Works, Future Age and their overall city manager were the only things I actually liked about CTP.

So, Notech, a blinking worker is the only thing that reminds you that you should develope a city? The fact that it doesn't produce crap isn't a clue? How is clicking on the tiles you want to develope with a certian icon more micro management than telling 50 workers what to do each turn? Explain please?

 

[Commander Bello]

I agree with Ivan. Public Works, Future Age and their overall city manager were the only things I actually liked about CTP.

So, Notech, a blinking worker is the only thing that reminds you that you should develope a city? The fact that it doesn't produce crap isn't a clue? How is clicking on the tiles you want to develope with a certian icon more micro management than telling 50 workers what to do each turn? Explain please?

Valid points here, JavalTigar.
I'd guess NoTech mixed up missing automation with the general concept. And public works just are a better (due to less micromanagement) system than having to push workers all over the map.

 

[Trajan13]

About public works... It does sound like a good thing, but it seems cIV will continue to ignore it. My guess is they are worried about being too similar to CTP.

I was thinking the modders could do this, in this manner-

1. Remove the ability to make workers, just grant one at the start. Make it invisible. Script an event that in the event of the worker's death, another is given to the guy who lost it.
2. Mod it so it has infinite movement, can do multiple tasks in one turn, and completes them instantly.
3. (the hard one) Make each worker action cost gold.
4. (okay this is kinda hard too) Add an interface similar to the public works one from CTP, that will control the invisible uberworker.

I know there are some serious holes, but... something done along those lines could twist the worker system into a public works system. We'd probably need a really skilled modder though.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Level]

There is also more information in a list if you click the picture at the top of the screen with only the title.

PW was kind of annoying for me, mostly because the first few times I played (and every time I stared a new game after playing or doing something else for a long time) I would forget to put money in to it and forget were the slider was.

 

[JavalTigar]

With public works I found it SOOOO much easier to organize my infrastructure. Connect all cities with roads, farm 2 tiles and mine 1 per city. Then once every city was established, make a science city, then a couple production powerhouse cities. Then set up the remaining city as points became avalible. And now with resourses imagine how easy it would be to set up your economy, get the trade flowing, dominate your opponents with your technological MIGHT!!!! (rubs hands together, with shifty eyes) ....but I digress.

I will admit that the interface did need some help, but if you just put it as a slider with all the rest on your F1 screen I think it would be okay.

Speaking of interface, I hope they put in something that makes it easier to rush a project. Shift-right click made it easy to switch projects. I always thought Ctrl-Right click should have been for rush project.

 

[covenant]

When he says workers set up trade routes... is he talking just about setting up roads or is he indicating something more?

 

[Thunderfall]

When he says workers set up trade routes... is he talking just about setting up roads or is he indicating something more?

roads and connecting resources...

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

My point exactly, JavalTiger. PW is much easier to deal with than constantly moving huge numbers of workers about. I think the best way to deal with it would be to have workers early in the game, as this adds to the capture/enslavement problems common in ancient times, then switch to a PW model once you hit industrialization - workers automatically go back to cities, and you have the option to allocate PW hammers to a pool. It might be nice to allocate these by city, i.e each city has a slider, though the hammers go into a civ-wide PW fund. In this way you dont have a serious problem with development when you are running low on gold, your higher-production cities can keep adding in hammers.

As far as "copying" CTP, there is nothing wrong with copying the better aspects of a game. It seems they are already copying one of the worst aspects of CTP with the addition of missionaries.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I was a huge fan of the PW system too. I had considered a compromise, though, in which players build workers-which go into a national worker pool-which can then be assigned to infrastructure projects to finish them quicker. However, the more you assign, the more likely an enemy is to capture slaves if he overruns the tile in question with a military unit.
Also, your labour pool would cost food and gold to maintain-seperate from generating PW with money and shields.
Anyway, just a thought.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I for one am glad that they resisted the siren song of public works. However, I admit that I may be biased. CTP annoyed the heck out of me, since it was the poster child of what goes wrong with a game with gobs of substandard design and elements instead of a few good things. The future age was a prime example.

The biggest problem with workers is not the MM, but the lack of strategic choices (once you know what you are doing). I have no idea whether or not Civ4 fixes that. Public works isn't inherently better or worse than workers in that regard, since it depends on implementation.

 

[Evie]

PUblic work isn't too good for a WYSIWYG system. It can be arranged, but I'd venture to say that if their aim is WYSIWYG, workers accomplish that much more easily than PW do. Sliders and numbers to keep track off have never served WYSIWYG too well.

(Plus, with PW, you can't make units - roman legionaires come to mind - able to perform some terrain-improvements-building. With worker abilities, it can be done).

 

[Notech]

So, Notech, a blinking worker is the only thing that reminds you that you should develope a city? The fact that it doesn't produce crap isn't a clue? How is clicking on the tiles you want to develope with a certian icon more micro management than telling 50 workers what to do each turn? Explain please?

Well, I certainly don't want to tell all my workers what to do each turn. I always set them to "Automate: This City Only", and I see no problem with the results.

Sure, sometimes a few things need to be corrected manually, but most of it is good enough for me. I haven't gone that deep into optimizing the city tile output.

When that city is done, I either set them to "Automate: Clean Pollution" or "Automate: Build Trade", or move them to a city close by, and automate them to improve that city.

So, I use automation as much as possible, but actually just three different commands. Never the generic "Automate", though, as it clutters the map with roads/RR, and cuts down all jungle/forrests, which can be quite nice to have between cities.

And, yes, the "blinking" worker is, in my opinion, a good way to know that, after a final check, that city is completely improved. In CTP, with PW, there's nothing to remind you to check in on a city's progress, only manually "visiting" each city, looking for tiles to improve.

I kept forgetting that. Maybe a solid proof of insufficient brain capacity on my part, but it took the fun away from playing the game, toghether with that "you have too many cities; your empire is revolting" thingy, resulting in loosing half of my cities in each turn, and the missionaries, creating chaos in some cities while I couldn't "remove" them militarily without starting a war.

@ Commander Bello (I was playing around with the idea to misspell your name slightly, but decided not to; please get mine right if you choose to reply, though ):

With PW you still have to select each tile, and choose an improvement for it (assuming I remember it correctly). That is micro management!!

If there's a way to automate or "macro manage" that in CTP, I've missed it completely. In that case, please correct me. It might be the reason I need to install and play CTP again....

If not, I still prefer workers, and the "fact" that, and I quote, "public works just are a better... system" is just your opinion, and, as such, is very personal.

It's all a matter of "taste", and all tastes and opinions are respected and allowed, especially in a forum like CFC.

I simply don't like PW....

 

[Commander Bello]

[...]
@ Commander Bello (I was playing around with the idea to misspell your name slightly, but decided not to; please get mine right if you choose to reply, though ):

No harm meant. I apologize for misspelling your name, NoTeCh (j/k)

With PW you still have to select each tile, and choose an improvement for it (assuming I remember it correctly). That is micro management!!

Yep, but you don't have to move your workers around the whole continent, set them to rest as soon as everything has been done, you don't have to care if they are entering your enemy's territory and so on. Therefore, PW means less micro-management.

[...]
If not, I still prefer workers, and the "fact" that, and I quote, "public works just are a better... system" is just your opinion, and, as such, is very personal.

It's all a matter of "taste", and all tastes and opinions are respected and allowed, especially in a forum like CFC.

I simply don't like PW....

O.k. then, let's agree to disagree at this aspect

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

It seems that Notechs biggest problem with PW is an inability to Automate in CtP. I would agree with this, but then point out that this was more of a failing with that particular interface than a problem with the PW system.
A very simple way to AUTOMATE a PW system is via implementation of an MSPaint style approach. i.e., you click on the improvement type you want, then paint the tiles you want to place them on. Obviously the more specialised improvements in Civ4 would work differently, but this would work for basic roads, rail, mines and farms. Once you finish that, you then say how many workers you want (from your labour pool) to work on the project(s) in question. Then, viola, you don't need to worry about terrain improvement for about 10-20 turns at a time-at LEAST.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[pangy]

civ4civ4civ4
Moderator Action: Stop spamming in various threads...
-CR
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Luthor_Saxburg]

[*]Catapults can hit all units in one tile.

I presume this will be the same for Artillery... which worries me, as this makes Artillery a even more powerfull weapon!

Sure, it makes SOD's less atractive, but Art is already a too powerfull weapon, with this...
I wonder if Bombers will have the same ability, too?

 

[Philips beard]

I really can't see the problem! I use much less time managing workers in CIV3, then I ever did managing public works in CTP! Workers are easy to use, compared to those huge lists with public works possible, and the public works slider to take care of.

Workers are also an excelent way to simulate slavery, and capturing of slaves, it's brilliant!!!!

PS!

....and I never even automate my workers until late, late in the game, when their only task is pollution cleaning, and some minor bombardment repairs!

 

[Commander Bello]

I really can't see the problem! I use much less time managing workers in CIV3, then I ever did managing public works in CTP! Workers are easy to use, compared to those huge lists with public works possible, and the public works slider to take care of.

Workers are also an excelent way to simulate slavery, and capturing of slaves, it's brilliant!!!!

PS!

....and I never even automate my workers until late, late in the game, when their only task is pollution cleaning, and some minor bombardment repairs!

One of the main problem of workers - and this hasn't been adressed often - is that it gives tile improvements just for free, which in turn give you economic benefit.
This becomes worse as soon as slavery comes into the game.

In C3C, the Mayas can easily "harvest" some barb camps, get some slaves, and for nil costs can improve their whole territory and get even money out of those improvements! This is a major misconception.
But even without slave workers, the principle still is valid. Get some a pack of 6 workers and road a tile within one turn. Get 1 gpt per roaded tile ad infinitum. Get a mine or an irrigation at additional nil costs. Fortify strokepoints at nil costs....

Town improvements cost you shields. Tile improvements cost you nothing. That is like getting your local highways for free, but collect the toll.

Again, just a major misconception.

Furthermore, I don't see the more micro-management as far as PW is concerned. You once adjusted the percentage to go into the PW-pool and then you assigned the tiles to be improved. Done.
For me, this is just less micro-management, as we have to check with the economic advisor anyway. But this may be just a matter of personal preferences, as I will admit.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

As I have pointed out in my compromise solution, though, having a labour pool removes all the MM associated with workers, introduces the lessened MM of the PW system, but still retains the benefits of the worker system-namely an ability to capture the workers of other civs. The system, though, would be so much better if you could decide-at the Empire level-how hard you want to make your labour pool or Slave Pool work, and how much you want to feed and pay them.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Gainy]

at nil costs....

Town improvements cost you shields. Tile improvements cost you nothing. That is like getting your local highways for free, but collect the toll.

To build a worker it costs your city one population point. It also costs up to 10 turns to build. Then you've got the maintenance costs (which vary depending on your goverment). That's hardly 'free'.

As for the Jav Thrower, it still costs shields/time to build, and there are maintenance costs associated with it also. Again, not free.