[Vanilla] Civ6 Caravel

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Is this what Caravel actually looks like or is it actually Carrack?
in addition to its uses of swivel guns rather than REAL cannon

OK Both of these can be square rigged. I'm not sure if Lateen rigged Carrack exists but Caravel in Civ5 uses lateen sails.
upload_2020-7-29_0-54-40.png

Civ6 Caravel (didn't Sid Meier aware the existence of Carrack as a multipurpose warship before Galleon came to exists?)

Nao-web.jpg

^ Portuguese Carrack (I think this is warship variant)


upload_2020-7-29_0-56-31.png

^ Is this 'galleon' (Mod unit made by Wolfdog) seen here actually carrack or a correct representation of Galleon?

Before I delve into Blender 3d workbench to make Carrack.

IF Carrack is to appear in Civ6 how many guns should it has?
 
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Is this what Caravel actually looks like or is it actually Carrack?
in addition to its uses of swivel guns rather than REAL cannon

OK Both of these can be square rigged. I'm not sure if Lateen rigged Carrack exists but Caravel in Civ5 uses lateen sails.

That doesn't look like a Caravel to me, lateen or square-rigged. It just looks like a generic ship.

When I think of a square-rigged caravel, this is what I have in mind:
3e9958fcba7279440d84b08e93564e81.jpg


Is this 'galleon' (Mod unit) seen here actually carrack or a correct representation of Carrack?

I think that's close enough to a Carrack.
 
That doesn't look like a Caravel to me, lateen or square-rigged. It just looks like a generic ship.

When I think of a square-rigged caravel, this is what I have in mind:
3e9958fcba7279440d84b08e93564e81.jpg

uh. Are you sure that the ship model shown here is caravel? from what i read. caravel is too small to fit with real cannon. its 'main weapon' is swivel guns and preferably used in boarding action.
 
@Lonecat Nekophrodite

That model has a total of 4 gun ports, it is indeed too narrow to be a military ship. There were some militarised models with 2 to 8 guns ports in total, but those had to make sacrifices to fit in the guns - less room for cargo and crew. You have to keep in mind, back in the day vessel design wasn't uniform, even across the same class of vessel and there was a lot of experimentation going on.
 
^ So to say this 'galleon' model shown earlier is the early stage of Galleon development where merchant galleon (Back in the day the term 'freight ship' doesn't exists ??) right?
So is it possible that there's a carrack that's bigger than galleon like HenryVIII's Manowars (Rose Marie for example) back then?
 
@Lonecat Nekophrodite

You had for example the Portuguese Madre de Deus :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madre_de_Deus

It was a 9 deck, 900 tons ship and bigger than galleons of its age. From the model on show you can clearly see that it was a 10 gun ship, quite big for a Carrack. Most portuguese galleons at that time were about 500 tons ships, keep in mind that the Galleon in general was used as a military and a convoy ship and hence could accomodate a lot more guns and munitions.

It really depends which nation built the vessel and for what purpose - the portuguese were more into trade, while the spanish were focusing on conquest and firepower.

As size goes, the Madre de Deus was 2 to 3 times bigger than the Mary Rose, though carrying a lot less guns.
 
I'm not expert on ship models or anything, but I think that the 3 ships of Colon could help.

The pinta, la Niña and the Santa María.

The Pinta and the niña (Both sides of the image) were Caravels but the Santa María was a Nao (center).

Caravels are the ones into the sides (with latin sails ) and Nao into the center (very similar to a carrack, but with some differences like not having a "castle" on the front).



La_Pinta,_la_Niña_y_la_Santamaría.jpeg



The Galleon would appear after with the new need to have intercontinental trade (crossing the ocean without stops and being able to defend himself). So it would be a mix betwein the both model in the photo, maneuverability and speed copied from the caravel but strengh and cargo capacity of the carrack.
 

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As mentioned above, it wasn't uniform.

Iirc the square-rigged caravel is a later design, necessary for the longer voyages.

That's right, in fact the wikipedia says that spaniards started to put square sails onto caravels.

Probably they made this change to make them travel to the Americas, meanwhile the original ones (the Portuguese) maintained the latin one as was more fitted to go through Africa and Asia.
 
I'm not expert on ship models or anything, but I think that the 3 ships of Colon could help.

The pinta, la Niña and the Santa María.

The Pinta and the niña (Both sides of the image) were Caravels but the Santa María was a Nao (center).

Caravels are the ones into the sides (with latin sails ) and Nao into the center (very similar to a carrack, but with some differences like not having a "castle" on the front).



View attachment 564390


The Galleon would appear after with the new need to have intercontinental trade (crossing the ocean without stops and being able to defend himself). So it would be a mix betwein the both model in the photo, maneuverability and speed copied from the caravel but strengh and cargo capacity of the carrack.
But both caravels and carracks are evolved independently to each other rather than Carracks being evolved from Caravel? (mmm maybe Portuguese enlarged caravels (which originated there) into Nau/Nao to be able to accomodate with big guns while caravels are too small to fit even one standard field cannon to it.

That's right, in fact the wikipedia says that spaniards started to put square sails onto caravels.

Probably they made this change to make them travel to the Americas, meanwhile the original ones (the Portuguese) maintained the latin one as was more fitted to go through Africa and Asia.

But Kurobune (黒船, Black ship) saw by Japanese is Nau (Carrack) not caravels. particuarly ones that had been forced to land on Tanegashima by storm was Nau (i think)
 
But both caravels and carracks are evolved independently to each other rather than Carracks being evolved from Caravel? (mmm maybe Portuguese enlarged caravels (which originated there) into Nau/Nao to be able to accomodate with big guns while caravels are too small to fit even one standard field cannon to it.

The 2 models are different as far as I know. From the 3 ships that discovered america, 2 were caravels and 1 was a nao (2 different models of ships).

After a time, spaniards started to add square-sails to the caravels, that normally only use triangular sails. Probably to facilitate long transoceanic journeys (to america, for example).


The way I know it (maybe there are other versions), after some time a new model of ship started to appear that was a mixture between the nao and the caravel = the Galleon. It was more used by spaniards at it was very polyvalent and fitted they empire (Transoceanic voyages, capable to attack or defend, able to transport big cargo, etc)


But portugueses continued to use naos and Carracks (like the Black ship) and they improved them over time so they fitted more their empire, more focused on trade, less on war or defending from other europeans empires.
Nonetheless, they improved them to have canons too, but in less number so they could have more cargo.

As I see it, we have:


1) Caravel (fast and maneuverable)


2) Nao/Carrack > Galleon (Nao+Caravel)


Naos and Carracks being very similar, but carrack being able to transport more cargo but worst for crossing oceans (was unstable with bad weather and storms) as Naos were the opposite.

It seems as time passed, and more defence was required, they started to add cannons and bridges to the naos and carracks, ending into the galleons but also with super carracks like the black ship (depending of the necessities of each empire).


So 2 different evolutions of the nao/carrack issued from different needs:


Portuguese> carracks for Africa and India.
With the path having stops/ports close to the coast and places to cover if an storm or pirates are coming = no need for many canons, and you can take this "extra place" for even more cargo. The coast fortifications will deal with the pirates and enemy ships.


Spanish> Galleons for american/Pacific.
With no stops/ports and no cost to look for protection for pirates and weather = Need for a ship able to resist bad weather but also to deal with pirates as not fortress would be found close for shelter.
 
1. Did Spanish uses Carracks too? (did they call it Nau/Nao?) I've read somewhere that Spanish Armada headed to England consists of: War Galleons (25-50 guns), Carracks, Nau, Four Italian Galleasses, and armed merchant holks
2. Galleons also prove popular in Europe. English quickly improved galleon designs and make a Manowar. also used alongside war carracks. Dutch De Zeven Provincien is also super galleon (70 guns or so).
3. So for how long did Caravels, Carracks and Nau, and Galleons remain in use? when did Dutch, French and British design supercede these Renaissance designs? did Dutch creates armed yatchs and how well did it performs both at seagoing and combat?
 
1. Did Spanish uses Carracks too? (did they call it Nau/Nao?) I've read somewhere that Spanish Armada headed to England consists of: War Galleons (25-50 guns), Carracks, Nau, Four Italian Galleasses, and armed merchant holks
As far as I know Nau was the Portuguese name for a carrack while Nao was the Spanish name for them.
 
1. Did Spanish uses Carracks too? (did they call it Nau/Nao?) I've read somewhere that Spanish Armada headed to England consists of: War Galleons (25-50 guns), Carracks, Nau, Four Italian Galleasses, and armed merchant holks
2. Galleons also prove popular in Europe. English quickly improved galleon designs and make a Manowar. also used alongside war carracks. Dutch De Zeven Provincien is also super galleon (70 guns or so).
3. So for how long did Caravels, Carracks and Nau, and Galleons remain in use? when did Dutch, French and British design supercede these Renaissance designs? did Dutch creates armed yatchs and how well did it performs both at seagoing and combat?

UF! These questions are far beyond my knowledge of the topic :P I will give you my opinion but maybe someone know the answer better!
And take some of them with caution as I can be not right!


1. As far as I know, yes they did. In Spanish “Nao" means literally "ship" and normally used for Big Ships. The word is old, now "barco" it is used instead for the same meaning of "big ship", but both are correct and you can use it). During the XV century (some centuries before and some after) "nao" was also a model of ship that was different from the caravel, the carrack and the galleon.


It was similar to the carrack but with lower deck and without a castle in the front (the ship was more "plain" so to speak).

For example, a Carrack or a galleon could be called "nao" but they didn't had to be a "Nao" if we understand them as the model.

The manila Galleon, was made by galleons but they were known as "Nao de china" (The ship from China) meaning the ship that did this journey. But it was a Galleon, not a "nao", the ship that had his own characteristics as a ship.

Therefore, Carracks could be called naos as they were big ships.


In the picture I posted, the Santa María was a Nao (model of the ship) but the other 2 were not (Caravels). The 3 of them could be called "Naos" as they 3 big ships.


---


For the armada, I do not know the exact different ships that made part of the armada, but for sure they had galleons that were transformed for military use, Carracks, Naos, pinnaces, Urcas, and ZXX
This ships came along from all parts as the armada was made by ships from all the kingdoms; Castile, Portugal (as they were considered among the (if not the) best ships the Flagship was a Portuguese gallion), Aragon, Basque Country, etc..

So it's normal that it was a mixture for all kind of ships, as the ships that came from Basque country where more suited for coast vigilance (Patache and pinnaces), the ones from Castile were galleons, Portuguese had carracks and galleons, Italian had galleasses being in the middle of Mediterranean see, etc.
Of course, all countries had a little of every kind of ships for different purposes.


2) As for the evolution of carracks and naos, every country did improvements according to their needs. For example, the English galleon was lower, and with more guns as the Spanish were taller and less armed. Why?


During this period, Spain had to transport all the goods from and to the intercontinental colonies (as explained in the other post) so the Spanish galleon was a perfect ship for this role. Spaniards were also more suited for boarding combat (therefore the high of their galleons), English continued the Portuguese trend to add more cannons to sink the enemy before boarding. The English during xvi and xvii had little to transport so no need of big cargo.

The Spanish galleons suffered for their "multipurpose" capacity:

- Very good commercial ship
-Very good combat ship


However, the English galleon was more suited for combat in open waters as it was more maneuverable (smaller, and lower) and had better firepower (no cargo = the extra space to cannons).


- Average/good commercial ship
-Excellent combat ship


3) I do not know when the different designs turned obsolete. I think is very hard to know, as a lot of model where used for a long time.


For example, the pinnaces were used, already, in the xiii century but the ship model was part of the spanish armada of the Xvi century. For sure, they were upgrade with the new ideas of navigation but that illustrate how difficult is to now that.

Manowars were the evolution of the English galleon. Now, they just removed the cargo ability and they centered into have more cannons and armament, and the roles for trade went to ships centered in this purpose.

So a manowar is better in combat that a galleon but worst for trade, and a merchant ship like an Urca is better for trade than a galleon but worst in combat. They just specialized the ships in a concrete purpose.


During XVIII century until middle of XIX, transport and commerce was made by armadas mixing Commercial ships and Manowar for defense (if the ships of the line were destroyed or fled, the transport ships were doomed).


Like in the examples of:


- The action of 9 august https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_9_August_1780


- The battle of Cape of finisterre finisterre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Cape_Finisterre_(1747)


Both actions show how, now with the new system, the merchants were totally dependent on the Military vessels and incapable of defending themselves.

So as everything, is not that a model is better than another is. Normally, everything (including ships) evolve to adapt to new necessities or particular circumstances.


Another example, and I will try to answer about the Dutch vessels, they used a lot the frigates. These were very useful in "low" waters like in the coast and some interiors of northern Europe. So, similar in purpose to the English galleons but more suited to the Dutch idiosyncrasy.
 
@Ticio

Where are you getting your info from? A lot of what you're saying doesn't correspond with what I've studied.

...meanwhile the original ones (the Portuguese) maintained the latin one as was more fitted to go through Africa and Asia.

This is incorrect.

That's right, in fact the wikipedia says that spaniards started to put square sails onto caravels.

Yes, but that's not THE square-rigged caravel. La Pinta is one such caravel which used square sails. The design which is usually associated with a square-rigged caravel is the one I posted above.

This is a caravel with square rigs yet not the "square-rigged" caravel:
La-Pinta-Wooden-Scale-Model-Ship-Port-Beam.jpg
 
@Ticio

Where are you getting your info from? A lot of what you're saying doesn't correspond with what I've studied.



This is incorrect.



Yes, but that's not THE square-rigged caravel. La Pinta is one such caravel which used square sails. The design which is usually associated with a square-rigged caravel is the one I posted above.

This is a caravel with square rigs yet not the "square-rigged" caravel:
La-Pinta-Wooden-Scale-Model-Ship-Port-Beam.jpg

Well, as I stated in the first line of my last post "UF! These questions are far beyond my knowledge of the topic
C:\Users\Yago\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif
I will give you my opinion but maybe someone know the answer better!
And take some of them with caution as I can be not right!"

So my knowledge is limited to what I know from my studies on history, visit to naval museums (the one in Madrid is the main, as I had a personal guided visit as student, surprisingly good!) and, of course books!

In fact, the last book I read about the topic (3/4 month ago) is what gave me the image I have about caravels.

The book is "The First Ships Around the World" by Walter Brownlee. I think is available on amazon for less than 10 dollars! Very interesting book for the price!

Anyways, in the book, Brownlee gives an analysis of the ships used during the period and that were able to cross the Ocean in a time the ships were not very suited for this task.

I will add some pictures of it, but I have the book in Spanish (My book was translated from the original) so I’m sorry in advance because they will be on Spanish and maybe some terms I use will be in Spanish too. Sorry!


History short, he states that the Caravel was, basically, an invention of the Portuguese (Prince Enrique). At first with Latin sails, as it was based on Portuguese fishing ships.

It explained that was very suited for coast exploration, but changing the sails to squared ones was difficult so captains started to use a mix of the two sails. The caravel that issue is the "carabela redonda" (I do not know the exact translation) and he gives the example of the "Pinta" and the "santa María", that were upgraded just before the journey to the ocean as square sails were better for Ocean navigation.

It also stated that the old "carracks" was summit to the same procedure, allow them more speed and making them the favorite model for trading (in detriment of the model based on the vikings).


After that, the new model of ships needed for continental trade and fight made the Galleon a necessity. For their interpretation I looked at this: https://web.archive.org/web/20070927025904/http://www.greatgridlock.net/Sqrigg/squrig2.html

That had a lot of useful information, even a lot of it can be found in books like the one of Walter Brownlee.

For the changes made on galleons by the English, is a topic well stablished when studying the armada from 1588 (at least, here in Spain). More precisely, I checked the BBC take on the topic:
It explains the advantages of the new English ships during this battle made by Matthew Baker:
Lower decks, more speed and maneuverability more fitted for cannon combat and not boarding, and less cargo capacity for goods/trade). They explained too, that part of the Spanish fleet was suited for Mediterranean combat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/tudors/armada_gallery_03.shtml

For the list of ships that made the armada of 1588, as I stated, I do not know really what kind of ships made it so for the post, I just checked wikipedia.
It seems to have a very precise list of the majority of them. You can see wich kingdom gave what ship and is interesting that the models changed a lot dipending of that. So I just assumed it made sense. For example, the northern kigndoms gave a lot of "pataches" and pinazas, that are ships normally use to navigate and make trade in low waters (as they were the ones used for trading with the Spanish netherlands), bu the italians and aragonses ones were made with a lot of galleasses and galleys, far more used in the mediterranean trade and warfare.

So, at least for me, that was an example how the medium and necesities of what sourrounds a territory shapes it, and thus my explanation of it in the precious post.

About the evolution and adaptation of the new ships for the new roles, I have no sources per se except the information in https://web.archive.org/web/20071216214846/http://www.greatgridlock.net/Sqrigg/shipline.html and wikipedia, as the guide explained it to me during the visit the naval museum in Madrid (In fact, the examples of the perils of Convoying with less armed merchants that were dependent on ships of the line was his too.).

I think I can check if you are interested as I normally save everything I read on internet and seems valuable.

And please, feel totally free to challenge my perception on the topic, as a big part of this perception is made with what I have being told and by Spanish and English sources and can be a little narrow or biased. I sincerely would love to have more points of view to know better of the topic!!

@Ticio

Yes, but that's not THE square-rigged caravel. La Pinta is one such caravel which used square sails. The design which is usually associated with a square-rigged caravel is the one I posted above.

This is a caravel with square rigs yet not the "square-rigged" caravel:
La-Pinta-Wooden-Scale-Model-Ship-Port-Beam.jpg

Sorry, I just saw this particular part about the square-rigged caravel. I'm not sure what you want to say (sorry my for my english). Could you reframe it, please?

As what I understand the Square-rigged caravel must be the same as the "caravela redonda" that was the mixture of both types of sails. Is that correct? like the ones used by Columbus as they were changed just before the departure (from only squared to have both).

As far as I know Nau was the Portuguese name for a carrack while Nao was the Spanish name for them.

As I checked today in other languages it is possible that you are right.

In my post I made the difference between Carrack and nao as in Spain they mean 2 different ships. But I do not know if it is the same in other countries like Portugal or UK.

It is possible that for them "nao" means the same as "carrack" and is seen as the same ship.

I don't know if anyone knows about this, but I find very interesting this possibility! hope somebody can tell us about it.
 

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Interesting stuff, thanks.

What I mean by this:
Yes, but that's not THE square-rigged caravel. La Pinta is one such caravel which used square sails. The design which is usually associated with a square-rigged caravel is the one I posted above.

This is a caravel with square rigs yet not the "square-rigged" caravel:

Is that there's a difference between changing the sails on a caravel hull so that it becomes square-rigged, and the Caravela Redonda design which was a type of caravel with a larger hull than the lateen-rigged caravel, which typically included a forecastle and a square-rigged sail at the front. These caravels were used in the long voyages to India because the smaller ones were no longer adequate.

So the carabela redonda you've attached is technically square-rigged, but it's not THE Caravela Redonda because it lacks the elements which constitute it.

f_Caravelaredm_78b6857.jpg


It seems the Spanish term carabela redonda includes any caravel with square-rigged sails, whereas in Portuguese it's typically associated with a specific design.
 
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