CivFanatic Chronicles: Improving Our Play Through Forum Critique

[Gort]

Best of luck - Apollo is significantly more difficult since the AI starts with an extra colonist.

 

[Dargov]

Thank you Pseudo

Congratulations on defeating Soyuz. Personally I haven't attempted Apollo yet, since I know I do not enjoy playing on Deity from my experience in Civ 5.

Even on Soyuz I do sometimes find the AI shooting for victory before turn 300, and I typically complete around 250-300 (excluding domination). So be prepared to invade!

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Good day ladies and gentlemen!

I am also looking to improve my win timers, so I'll join the discussion and add some input and questions of my own.
I usually play on Soyuz and aim for a peaceful Harmony victory withTransendence around turn 230 +/-10.

Setup:
African Union
Artists
Tectonic Scanner (normal maps) OR Coastal Scanner (water heavy maps)
Laboratory

Tech Order:
Chemistry -> Ecology -> Genetics -> Cognition -> Alien Lifeforms -> Engineering -> Robotics -> Physics -> Bionics -> (Nanotechnology from Institute) -> Computing

From there onwards it's usally more flexible, depending on what I need. If an AI is about to make trouble, I usually toss in Ballistics to get Rocket Batteries in frontline cities.

Build Order:
Trade Depot -> Trade Convoy -> Recycler -> Settler -> Trade Convoy

And then it already depends on what's going on. I usually try to get Laboratories and Vivariums up rather quickly to maximize science gain to unlock Cognition as fast as possible.

For new cities I always go Trade Depot -> Recycler -> Vivarium. The capital usually provides the Trade Convoys and workers for the new cities. Total worker count is usually 1 per city + 2 extra ones that assist high pop cities.

Social Policies:
Frugality -> Homesteading -> Colony Initiative -> Labor Logistics -> Commoditization -> Standardized Architecture -> Profiteering -> Interdendence Networks -> Social Investment -> Civic Duty -> Magnasanti -> Foresight -> Social Mores -> Laboratory Apprenticeship -> Cohesive Values -> Community Medicine -> Metaresearch Methods -> Scalable Infrastructure -> (Whatever is best in the Industry Tree to unlock the 2nd bonus)

Strategy:
The strategy revolves around getting your first city and trade route up asap, then found 3 addition cities asap (for a total of 5) and setting up an internal trade network, aided by Industry policies to maximize trade route gain and increase city production. Once Cognition is finished I start spamming academies (prefereably on grassland tiles), assisted by 2-4 Biowells per city (depending on food situation). The capital also gets some Manufactories prepared (build until 1 turn is left) for the Mind Flower construction.

Overall the strategy is solid, but for some reason I feel that I should be able to finish the game faster. So here are some questions where I'd like feedback:

(1) Is it even worth to beeline Cognition? If I'd beeline for Bionics instead I would be able to get 5 scientist slots up pretty fast (3 from Institute + 2 from Nanopasture), which should be more than enough for mid game cities. Another two can later be aquired via Gene smelter and if I get Cognition after that I can still plant some Academies. On the other hand, Genetics has two quite good buildings, while Physics offers no immediate benefit. Lastely that strategy might also warrent a deeper investment into Prosperity (more health and 3 energy per specialist).

(2) During early mid game, around the time I finish Cognition, I often end up in a situation where my cities have nothing useful left to build (Ultrasonic Fence, Repair Facility and Launch Complex), so I end up with up to two dozen turns where my cities just produce science. While that is actually not bad with the rather high production yields usually inbetween (+5 to +12 science per city), I always feel like I am wasting time at this phase. Other times I wonder if I should build Food instead, considering that my TR will also benefit from that.

(3) Should I go Supremacy or Contact Victory instead? I usually stick to Harmony because it is convenient (build Mindflower, press End turn 20 times), but I wonder if Contact victory might be faster. Maybe I could even utilize Arrays (gasp!) instead of Academies that way. Supremacy might also work, but I feel like I'd get the affinity levels way too late for the buildings to have any decent impact.

(4) During late midgame (once Academies and Biowells are up) I usually start to lose energy pretty rapidly. I can usually compensate that by increased pop numbers, external TR or Solar Collectors until it becomes critical. Once in a while, however, I end up on a map with no rivers, good trade partners and low energy tile yields around me. What to do in that case? The only option in that case seems to be getting Field Theory, but that's a pretty big detour even when considering the free tech from Quantum Computer.

Thoughts?

 

[Dargov]

Seems you play in a very similar manner to me, accept my attitude is a little more "get a strong, stable start and then diversify strategy from there", so going for diverse win conditions rather than going for the quickest win possible.

As previously stated my win time is generally around 250+ with my fastest (non-dom) being around 230-240.

3 critiques I might make though are that:
The virtue trees are well balanced enough that the best choice is circumstantial, I try and make an assessment as to the best option based on the terrain, which is generally "when do I jump from Prosperity to Industry?"

I don't know if that's your end game virtue build- I tend to have quite a few more than that. And I can't see any mention of boosting culture, I think you're probably under valuing culture.

You haven't mentioned purchase strategy. I'm not exactly Mr Play-to-win, but I normally have the energy to purchase the 2-3 most important building in each new colony after the first 2. From what I have gathered from these forums, I may be under valuing energy.

and to your questions
1)I take Cognition a little later, and as you say, go deeper into Prosperity, more health-more pop, rather than rely on super early academies. They do cut your growth and production as you are working those tiles instead of food/hammer tiles.

2)I'm either producing workers, settlers or culture at this point (more virtues=more health=more cities)

3)Contact is easily the fastest if you get lucky with the first bit of the code- haven't done this since patch personally. Emancipation seems a lot faster to me than Transcendence once it gets going, but I think supremacy science is more terrain dependent.

4)Alternative markets would help, especially since patch and station trade routes are comparatively more valuable, you're only one virtue away I believe?

 

[Pseudofate]

Welcome GAGA. In your honor I have changed the title of this thread to something more all -encompassing.

Best of luck - Apollo is significantly more difficult since the AI starts with an extra colonist.

Thank you Pseudo

Congratulations on defeating Soyuz. Personally I haven't attempted Apollo yet, since I know I do not enjoy playing on Deity from my experience in Civ 5.

Even on Soyuz I do sometimes find the AI shooting for victory before turn 300, and I typically complete around 250-300 (excluding domination). So be prepared to invade!

@Gort: Oh man, after last night, yeah I think luck is gonna be a huge factor.

@Dargov: Thank you sir. Personally I'm not to sure I'm gonna enjoy playing on Apollo either!

3 games last night. DoW'd and WRECKED before turn 100 in the first two. AI does not like it when you rush Gene Vault and Pod. Game three, change up my research order a bit to get military units sooner and protect borders. Lay low, expand away from opposing territories. Unfortunately not a whole hell of a lot of titanium to be found. Regardless, AI is ahead in Affinity and well, everything else the entire time. AI wins with Emancipation on t250! Woah! This will be a tough nut to crack. My Soyuz turn progression plan does not seem able to contend with Apollo's challenges.

edit: oh it doesnt change the title on the forum thread list, only changes it within this thread. =/

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Well thank you, but I think you just updated the title of your post, not the thread.

The problem with Apollo is that defending against early AI aggression is usually so costly that you fall behind because you need to pump units. Even Rocket Batteries will only delay your doom. Once an aggressive AI reaches affinity level 4+ you better get an affinity quest or you are boned.

I have actually beaten Apollo on a Terra map post-patch, but I found the game so unpleasantly stacked against the player that I'd rather play on Soyuz.

3 critiques I might make though are that:
The virtue trees are well balanced enough that the best choice is circumstantial, I try and make an assessment as to the best option based on the terrain, which is generally "when do I jump from Prosperity to Industry?"

My answer is usually: "Right after the free colonist", since the other virtues are actually not that strong. I think the patch actually reduced the impact of low unhealthiness, so there is little harm to be in the red early on.

The sad thing about Knowledge is that it offers only little for the early game. Industry seems like the default choise, even more so since you need those +5 prod factories to speed up the Mindflower...

I don't know if that's your end game virtue build- I tend to have quite a few more than that. And I can't see any mention of boosting culture, I think you're probably under valuing culture.

I usually get Alien Preserve early on and that is enough to get around 18-20 virtues or so. Never really felt that I needed more of them (or rather: that the cost to get them earlier would outweight the benefits).

You haven't mentioned purchase strategy. I'm not exactly Mr Play-to-win, but I normally have the energy to purchase the 2-3 most important building in each new colony after the first 2. From what I have gathered from these forums, I may be under valuing energy.

I usually get recyclers in the 4th and 5th city (also depending on terrain and titanium), but apart from that I rather stockpile my energy to make it through the negative energy phase.

 

[Dargov]

For me the issue is very much that it requires you to exploit the AI, rather than forge forward on your own.

For example- avoiding the wonders prevents an entire possible negative modifier for your diplomacy. In order to prevent the AI snagging an early victory you have to have a military which can take out an affinity 13+ army.

So my advice would be to get your own play to the point where you can win at least sub 270, probably sub 250 on Soyuz, then go back and have another crack at Apollo.

 

[Pseudofate]

Well thank you, but I think you just updated the title of your post, not the thread.

Yeah that was disappointing. I' contacted a mod and requested the edit since the thread is growing beyond my personal exploits.

So my advice would be to get your own play to the point where you can win at least sub 270, probably sub 250 on Soyuz, then go back and have another crack at Apollo.

Sage advice. I'll do this tonight rather than slamming my head against a wall.

Also, and I'm fairly certain I know what the answer will be but, do all cities require the Ultrasonic Fence in order to receive the quest bonus? (Convoys won't be attacked) Or does having one fence in your capital work globally?

 

[GAGA Extrem]

One fence is enough, it is a global variable/modifier.

 

[Gort]

Yeah, build a single fence, wait until you get the "convoys immune to aliens" quest result, then sell the fence.

 

[Dargov]

To GAGA

On Culture/Virtues/Policies/Health: I'm leaning more towards your way of thinking post patch, my virtue selection has always been based on getting enough health to stay above -10, and in the mid stage get to +10 and nab the Knowledge opener to run all my cities at +20% science. The earlier I can get both Eudaimonia and Magnsanti, the sooner I can run a massive wave of expansion.

By the end stage of the game (200+) I also have the Tier 3 synergy bonus, allowing me to place what would otherwise be marginal cities.

But as I'm sure you realise, there is an opportunity cost & a direct comparison of the two approaches is difficult.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I was a big fan of Prosperity pre-patch (used to go Prosperity/Knowledge), but since I am now playing with only 5 cities it isn't really needed anymore.

After some more test games I have identified 3 things that might help improve playtime (in my case I finished the last game at turn 225 with only average terrain around me):

(1) I used to establish a road connection to new outposts while they were growing, now I focus on building a mine instead - that extra production cuts the time for Trade Depot significantly and thus speeds up the TR establishment.

(2) Getting Transgenics earlier has a high opportunity cost, but it helps to get your cities closer to the point of being happiness-neutral. It's also not too far off the initial Cognition path.

(3) Once my Academies are up and my cities have nothing to do I now try using the food conversion. That allows to allocate almost all citizen to Academies and Scientists slots while still boosting growth, so it can actually be more benefitial than pure science conversion in some cases (but I am still investigating).

 

[Pseudofate]

Couple of more advice nuggets from other threads.

Spoiler :

I'll break down affinity approaches according to seeding, early game, mid-game and late-game:

Seeding:

If you want to pick a certain affinity before you land, some of the space gear might help. Lifeform sensor will help you find xenomass and nests and you could use it to rule harmony in or out. Tectonic scanner is very useful as a general approach if you are thinking of going purity, but might choose other affinities if the surrounding environment recommends it because of titanium's high production. If you happen to start with titanium near your capital, then you have a brilliant start. It kind of makes engineers redundant if you think about it.

Early game:

If there appears to be no clear choice for an affinity, whether it be limited affinity strategic resources near you, keep exploring and eventually you will find something that encourages you to pick a particular affinity. While some might prefer to roleplay and they end up picking supremacy when there is no viable firaxite near them, if you one of those people, then you would be relying solely on your basic units. It would also mean level 4 zerging would be off the table until you are level 6 or 7 at least.

On the other hand, if you are spoiled for choice, then it comes down to comparing numbers of strategic resources and figuring out which affinity your opponent(s) is going to pick. You could have a case where harmony becomes attractive due to open lands which you could spray with miasma, but if your opponent(s), namely your neighbour(s), is going to pick harmony, then try another affinity as miasma would also help them attack you if they want to.

Mid game:

At this point, you would be around turn 100-150 in quick games and turn 130-180 in standard picked games. You should have a few levels in your preferred affinity. If there are any affinity quests to do, complete them. If you happen to get a deep space telescope affinity quest, completing it would ultimately depend on your willingness to pursue a contact victory. If not, then getting the techs might not be worth it.

Keeping an eye on your opponent's affinity levels is crucial here. If you have less affinity levels than your neighbour (around 2+ level difference or more) then there is a good chance they will consider attacking you. You should prepare for the worst if they hit levels 4, 6, 8, 11 and 13 respectively. Level 4 brings the unique units, level 6 unlocks level 3 infantry and better planes, level 8 unlocks level 3 tanks, level 11 unlocks max upgraded infantry and better planes and level 13 unlocks hovertanks. If you are doing an island map, levels 5, 10, 13 and 15 will be your greatest concern.

Also keep an eye out on their strategic resources. If they have tons of their preferred strategic resource relative to their affinity, they could mass produce their unique units or provide at least several mega units, with the xenotitan being the most dangerous of them. So to conclude, mid-game is when the arms/affinity race begins and you should also aim for your preferred victory at this stage, but preferably as early as possible.

Late game:

Forget the awesome battlefields of Modern Warfare and Battlefield 3. Battles in this game combine the mythical clash of the titans, modern warfare and sci-fi warfare similar to star wars (on land of course) and other sci-fi series all in this strategic game form. You know you are in late game if you can build epic units and the turn number has passed 200 for both standard and quick games. At this point, it becomes important to know how your soldiers fight the most effectively.

As harmony, your role is to spray miasma using condensors as mainly a defence mechanism. Do not consider this approach if you have a neighbour following harmony as well until they are dealt with. Your soldiers are very stubborn and loyal only to their fellow soldiers, in that they have combat bonuses when they are alone. They are willing to fight to the death, and even suicide bomb themselves for the greater good. Combined with miasma and extensive mutations to the human body, your soldiers will heal rapidly and fight viciously in a rather spread out formation. Along with this, you have your xenotitan, the strongest melee unit in the game. Rushing down purity to turn it into a true xenotitan will provide with much needed ranged resistance. Some of your ranged units can also heal on kill and have the chance to interrupt enemy formations with the scatter effect, where you hit your enemy so hard they are either knocked back into another tile or they run for their life for 1 tile and then regain their senses.

As purity, your role is to focus on defence until you can get to level 13. At that point, you choose between domination or the other peaceful victories available to you (exodus and contact). Your soldiers develop incredible improvements to converting energy from movement to combat and they are most effective when they have spare moves. If you wish to go on the offensive, you will need your level 4 hovertanks which have the option of being upgraded with city attack bonuses. If you wish to turtle, which is mainly what purity is about, your wardens and aeges (plural for aegis) can have combat bonuses with garrisoned in a city. Your navy also operates strongly on movement-to-strength combat bonuses as well as bonus range. Just make sure your skies are clear from satellites as you turtle to victory or spam hovertanks for domination victory.

As supremacy, you do not call yourself a human individual, you call yourself an autonomous member of a great society. Your soldiers operate effectively when together and can become irresistible in this way. You also have nodes giving you impressive healing bonuses when defending. Your planes and rovers can also gain a strong combat bonus against wounded units, making them very efficient in finishing off enemies. The rovers, moreover, can get stronger flanking bonuses (NB: don't get ignore ZoCs, they already have that). Your frigates can also hold planes or can hit and run like sea-keshiks. Your obrital range becomes drastically expanded at level 8 and once you get phasal transporters, you can teleport units from halfway across the world.

With either affinity, don't forget to use satellites when you can. If you are low or have no titanium or oil resources, consider getting tacnet nubs to defend or attack.

I hope this guide helps.

I agree with Idleray start. It is solid enough to allow you to decide where to go from there, instead of just going one way. Artists for example is really good with might tree for a quick military start.

I like to play agressive fast paced games, while i mix it up sometimes, this is my common start

Virtue:
Adaptive tactics
Survivalism
Scavenging
Martial Meditations

With artists, scouting (3 scouts if i think it's a continental kind of map) you will get this pretty fast. Afterwards i continue on the might tree, or go the production one, depending on how it's workign out. If i want to pump out more military units, i go might for sure since less upkeep allows you to have even more units outside.

My decission on first technology depends on what map i get on, if it's high sea/island kind of map, i would go first for Planetary Survey, if not, ecology. I don't get pioneering right away because if i am starting agressively i want my production to be flowing towards units instead of new colonies and not to stop my city from growing. With the heavy scouting you are likely to get enough energy to buy the colonist a bit later on anyways.

Technology
Ecology/Planetary Survey (ecology is a must anyways, so if you get first planetary, get ecology anyway)
Alien biology
Pioneering
Physics
Alien sciences
Alien ecology

The reasons why i prefer harmony above the others for agressive starts it's because how fast you can get your first affinity unit with useful early game techs, so it's effectively the faster to get them efficiently, since the others affinities techs that you get are better for city/tech growth than kill kill kill:

- You can get biowells reliabily by killing aliens.
- Scout's worst nightmare at keeping pace is miasma, being inmune is for me the most time efficient with 3 scouts, since you can cycle them back to base and never worry about miasma.
- It makes your workers inmune to miasma, allowing to work on upgrades nonstop, fast paced.
- It gives you flexibility, if plan to bunker up, you can just use the biomass to produce miasma condensers to annoy the crap out of your opponents.

I choose might obviously because technology first tiers are a breeze to get with the scavenging.

Of course, this kind of strat is very suited for small maps, but i haven't tried to in big maps yet (i plan to).

 

[Dargov]

I was a big fan of Prosperity pre-patch (used to go Prosperity/Knowledge), but since I am now playing with only 5 cities it isn't really needed anymore.

Interesting. Pre-patch I was going 4-5 cities in the early game, depending on available land, before settling a second wave of cities (roughly a total of 8 minimum) once I had the tec/virtues to keep health at 10+ and am able to clear land or reach and hold a new region for colonisation.

Do you feel with the changes to health and trade routes tall is now more viable?

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Not sure about viability, but it is certainly easier to play. No need to bother with 20 TR and all that. I'd guess the ideal number would be around 8 cities or so (considering the 5% tech cost penalty per city and the opportunity cost + development time for new cities). I often have a hard time to find 5 good spots without aggrevating the AI to a guaranteed war, but that's more like a map setting issue, I suppose.

I think the most important factor is that you can't get Trade Depots that early anymore (no rushbuy, no yield from TR to cities without Depot, no sea TR bonus), so it's much harder to snowball early on by just spamming cities everywhere.

Overall I feel 5 is a good number - even without Prosperity I am only slightly in the negative health zone and when I have Transgenics I usually enter the green - right on time when I start unlocking Knowledge. 5 cities is also the magical number where you can run all-internal TR, which can be useful at times. And, hey, it works. Turn 225 feels like a decent time considering that I am barely doing any city micro with pop allocation and all that. Also reduced my play time quite a bit (2-3 hours per game now), so I get more CIV in less time. :x

As for tall vs. wide, I think tall is only worthwhile because the game ends so quickly. If you would play to, lets say, turn 300 or so, you'd certainly need more cities.
But right now the game is more or less over before you can develope your mid game founded cities and make them profitable.

 

[Esperr]

Heres a tip for everybody to make the game easier period.

Make a co-op agreement with as many civs as possible, if your playing Apollo you only need one because the A.I has infinite energy anyway.

trade 3 ept for 1 favor, and then turn right around and trade that 1 favor for 100 flat energy. This exploit makes the whole game a million times easier. Also, you have to do 3ept at a time for a favor, the A.I will not accept 6 ept for 2 favors. However, you can trade as many favors as you have for flat energy in increments of 100. So for instance you can trade 10 favors for 1000 energy outright.

PAC and kavithia are easy to get early DOF with and keep. The Russians and brazil are harder, and with Poly and Iberia you can get one early, but it usually wont last very long before they sour up.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Yeah, or you play on Soyuz and stop abusing the game.

 

[Xenotitan]

Heres a tip for everybody to make the game easier period.

Make a co-op agreement with as many civs as possible, if your playing Apollo you only need one because the A.I has infinite energy anyway.

trade 3 ept for 1 favor, and then turn right around and trade that 1 favor for 100 flat energy. This exploit makes the whole game a million times easier. Also, you have to do 3ept at a time for a favor, the A.I will not accept 6 ept for 2 favors. However, you can trade as many favors as you have for flat energy in increments of 100. So for instance you can trade 10 favors for 1000 energy outright.

PAC and kavithia are easy to get early DOF with and keep. The Russians and brazil are harder, and with Poly and Iberia you can get one early, but it usually wont last very long before they sour up.

Yeah, but that's kinda cheating.

 

[Dargov]

Turn 225 feels like a decent time considering that I am barely doing any city micro with pop allocation and all that. Also reduced my play time quite a bit (2-3 hours per game now), so I get more CIV in less time. :x

As for tall vs. wide, I think tall is only worthwhile because the game ends so quickly. If you would play to, lets say, turn 300 or so, you'd certainly need more cities.
But right now the game is more or less over before you can develope your mid game founded cities and make them profitable.

I agree about the length of the game: To me though it almost doesn't seem like Civ at all, you're just starting to get in to your game and then it's over.

You may have a point about my late cities slowing me down. I may try going just 2 extra to 5/6 rather than shooting for 8+, might speed up my win times by a certain number of turns.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Considering that I view the increase of victory times in BNW as a good thing, I actually wouldn't mind if BE games would take longer.
I always have the feeling that the game is over when I just started to unlock some of the cool affinity related stuff. Almost as if I would build the space ship parts in CIV5 once I have reached the Industrial era.

More often than not I often don't even build mid game stuff like Nanopastures or Institutes anymore, because converting production to science for the last 50 turns or so is just the most effective thing to do if you want to unlock the Affinity techs. And speaking of tehcs: I also don't get any techs that unlock interesting stuff - I just beeline everything that gives Affinity points, regardless of the benefits. Infact I think that I actually can't even tell you what most of the Harmony related leaftechs do, despite having researched them dozens of times.

Pre-patch I used to spam cities (10+) and Terrascapes and I took detours in the tech tree (like Vertical Farming, Industrial Ecology or Weather Control). But those games tool 270-300 turns to finish - in the end I was just wasting (in-game) time. The more I play this game the more I am convinced that the integration of Affinity techs into the techtree (in it's current form) is by far the biggest design failure of the game. Because once I have reached Affinity level 13 and the Mindflower is under construction, I am finally back at a point where I can again research stuff that I want because of the things it unlocks (instead of just a variable that is increased). Once I have Nanorobotics I research Microbiological mines, I research the Xeno Titan, I research Biofuel Plants, I research Weather Control satellites and my cities can finally start building stuff again instead of merely converting production into science. These 20-30 turns between building the Mindflower and winning the game bring back the feeling of a CIV game - even though you know nothing you do does actually matter anymore, because you have already won against the AI.