Civics_Balancer Mod-Alpha. Playtesting Comments welcome.

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hi guys. Well after a long hiatus due to injury, I have had an opportunity to get back to basics with my 'Civics Mod'. It was actually looking at the Civics in the Warlords manual where I noticed the first, most obvious problem-that many civics had only 1 benefit (and often marginal at that) wheras some had 2-often both quite good. So, I thought I would tackle things in 3 stages.
The first stage is to simply balance out the existing civics on offer-which is what I offer here. Stage 2 will involve adding 2 more civics options to each category-primarily to balance out the early and late game options. Stage 3 will be the addition of additional civics categories, namely Ideology, Organisation and Rights (though I may add a Military civic as well). All up, then, we are probably looking at an 8x8 grid of civics.
Anyway, I would love it if you guys would check it out, and send any feedback to me via PM. Balancing issues are the highest priority, but if you think there is something I have done which could be done in a better way-or not at all-then please let me know.

Government Civics Changes

Spoiler :

-Hereditary Rule-+3 Culture per Specialist; +2 Happiness from Castles.
-Police State-1 Sickness; +25% Military Unit Porduction; +2 Happiness from Jails.
-Universal Sufferage-+2 Health; +25% War Weariness; +1 Hammer from Towns.

Legal Civics Changes

Spoiler :

-Bureaucracy-+50% Gold and Hammers in Capital; +3 Gold per Specialist; +25% no. of City Maintainance.

Labour Civics Changes

Spoiler :

-Slavery-Pop Rush allowed; +2 Hammers from Mines and Quarries.
-Serfdom-+50% Worker Rate; +2 Food from Pasture and Farms.
-Caste System-Unlimited Merchants, Artists and Scientists; +2 Gold from Wineries and Plantations.

Economics Civics Changes

Spoiler :

-Mercantilism-No Distance from Capital Maintainance; +1 Hammers from Camps and Plantations; No Foreign Trade.
-Free Market-+1 Free Trade Route; +1 Gold from Lumbermills and Wells; -1 Health.
-State Property-+1 Specialists; +1 Food from Workshops and Watermills; -1 Happiness in Largest Cities.
-Environmentalism-+6 Health in All Cities; Happiness from Jungles and Forests; +25% no. of Cities Maintainance.

Religion Civics Changes

Spoiler :

-Pacifism-+100% GP rate; +3 Culture per Specialist; +1 Gold per military unit.

Aussie_Lurker

 

[dh_epic]

Hey Aussie, great work so far!

Something important to keep in mind... the Civics not only need to be balanced with each other, but they also need to be balanced with other feats in the tech tree. If civics become too powerful, then you have one best choice: always pick a civic tech over a wonder tech or a unit tech. If civics become too weak, then you have one best choice: always ignore the civic tech.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well fortunately, even with changes in SDK and Python, there is only so much civics can ever do-so I don't see them becoming completely ultrapowered when compared to other game options. What I really want, more than anything, is to have more choice in the early stage of the game. Too often I find myself either unable-or uneccessary-to change a civic until the early to late middle ages. At least now civics like Slavery, Caste System, Hereditary Rule and Mercantilism give what I consider to be genuine benefits-whilst still ensuring that they don't become the perfect choice every time. You might notice that the choice of economic and labour civics will often come down to your specific situation. Mercantilism will now be good if you have a far flung nation and/or lots of traditionally 'colonial-style' terrain improvements, wheras free market is better for someone who has lots of forests and oil they wish to exploit. I also do believe that SOME kind of cost needs to be borne for a civic-whether it be in the form of increased civics maintainance or some other penalty (like increased WW for Universal Sufferage) Lastly, I REALLY want to get away from the whole good for war/good for peace dichotomy which I had started to notice again (Police State was a case in point). Now I feel that many of government civics would be good in either war OR peace-or at least that was my aim.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

What, only 2 views?? I thought a mod aiming to redress imbalances within the civics options would be very popular, but clearly I am mistaken .

Be that as it may, my part2 balance will be out by-at the latest-next Saturday.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[HourlyDaily]

I'm very interested in it. Very few people have discussed adding new civic(s) categories and giving players a real choice. And we know you have a good grasp on balance and on history.

I will give these a run and see if I can pick up any glaring issues.

Keep it up mate.

 

[dh_epic]

Hey Aussie. Maybe if you had some screenshots, people would be more inclined to download it. Also, it's a good idea to post this in the Completed Mods section -- even if it's a beta!

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Ask and you shall recieve, DH_Epic. These pictures come from Stage 1 of the balancing project, which involves the addition of NO NEW CIVICS-only the balancing of existing ones.

here are the pics, I hope you like them

Spoiler :

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Dudedudeyo]

those are some nice changes that you have made with the civics
the thing that i like most is that most have a benifit and a negative.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK guys. I am WELL ahead of schedule. I have now completed stage 2 of my Civic Balancing Project. In this stage, I have added 2 extra choices to each civics category-in large part to give players more GENUINE options in the early part of the game. For instance, you no longer have to wait until banking to change your economic civics-you can now switch to a barter economy after you get Pottery (and assuming you have the cottages and hamlets to justify it), or wait until currency to switch to a cash economy (good for extracting cash out of farms and mines-but at a cost to useful output). When combined with my existing balances, I feel that this will have players carefully consider their current situation before switching civics, and also leave players with NO perfect choice of civics-or even civics combos. Of course, I won't know that for certain unless people playtest the mod and report back on any imbalances they might notice. I am ALWAYS open to suggestions.

Anyway, here are some pics to enjoy

Spoiler :

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[dh_epic]

I'm curious what happens when you run a Theocracy with Free Religion Sometimes these contradictions are indicative that you have some redundancy in the tech tree. Other times, they are simply unavoidable. If the latter, then rather than preventing a Theocracy with Free Religion, you just make the interaction completely undesireable. (e.g.: since Free Religion ensures you have no State Religion, make Theocracy completely dependent upon a state religion.)

Also, as a couple of other pieces of advice related to getting this to the masses:

• Give your mod a catchier title
• Post it always by editing the first post... and reply at the bottom saying the first post is edited
• Track changes as much as possible, in the first post
• Each zip file should contain a build number, or a version number, to show progress.
• Change your sig! Divert traffic towards your mod.
• When you're ready, post this in the completed mods / mod components thread... even if it's not 100% done, people love playing with betas.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Thanks for the advice, DH_Epic. As to the Theocracy and Free Religion issue, I am not sure how to get around that. The problem is that the XML file hates it when you have a 'State Religion' Civic that gives a - to happiness from non-state religions (trust me, I have tried this before ). I think the big thing is that someone who ran both together would only get the +10% research bonus, as all the other bonuses would cancel out. As far as my postings go, each 'Stage' of the Mod also exists as a seperate Mod-i.e., I want to give people the choice in how far they go in 'balancing' their civics. Still, I will move this to the ModComponent forum shortly-and improve the title as you suggest-to get more people in. Got any thoughts on the title? Thanks for your advice.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Bertking]

This is a great idea Aussi.But I think you neutered Hereditary Rule (I never thought I'd say that ). I don't think many people have specialists when it is first available, and when they do become available Representation's 3 sci bonus for them completely owns this bonus. Castles are generally expensive and come later, so all of the bonuses of Hereditary Rule are useless until around the medieval era.

 

[Optimizer]

Interesting that there is some civic modding going on.

Some advice:
* An obvious choice is no real choice. This means that all civics should be the best option under some circumstances. If you want cash economy to be superior to bartering, they should not be represented by two civics, but as technological development.
* There might be certain good combinations of civics (for instance one which gives an unlimited number of specialists, and another which increases Great People birth). These combinations should preferrably be well-represented in history (a theocracy with free speech or a pacifist police state aren't) and not overpowered. (No civic should be necessary for winning.)
* Early civics should be most useful for a developing civilization with little infrastructure and vice versa. Systems like the (modern) police state and environmentalism did not appear late in history because the ideas were advanced, they did because they are only beneficial for a ruler of an industrialised nation. This also means that civics can become available long before they are useful.
* Civics should provide atmosphere. The units and infrastructure of different civics should look different. (When I think of communism I see concrete walls. When I think of capitalism I see neon lights.)

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

The funny thing, BertKing, is that I found the OLD Hereditary Rule to be totally useless, unless I was at war. It is this kind of 'Only Good for War' and 'Only Good for Peace' thing which I REALLY want to eliminate. Do you think the culture bonus would work better as a basic 'Commerce Modifier' per city? Or perhaps I can go down Optimizer's path and boost the culture of the Capital (the whole King is the Centre of our Universe thing ). I definitely want to keep the bonus happiness for castles, though, as it simply seems to make SENSE. Also, I may return to the +3 Culture per specialist AFTER I have added Ideologies, as some of them will allow either a bonus specialist (or two) or just have unlimited specialists of certain classes.
@Optimizer. A look at my civics should show that certain civics are excellent for certain situations. For instance, got lots of farms and pastures? Go Serfdom. Mines and Quarries are better for Slavery. If you have lots of Plantations, then you are probably better off going with Caste System-and thats just for labour. Economics adds a whole NEW layer-which you can mix and match to your hearts content. Anyway, I appreciate the advice, and any specific suggestions you have are always appreciated .

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Bertking]

Hereditary rule is now inferior to Representation in almost every way though. Maybe you could add a happiness or production/commerce/culture bonus to the capitol. The miliatry happiness is useful if you have a large population, and it has good synergy with vassalage, a logical legal civic for a moanrchy.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

This is a perfect illustration of why it's so important that people give me feedback on this mod. I see exactly what you are saying, and it occurs to me that Oligarchy, for much the same reason, will be practically useless. Therefore, my thoughts are to grant Hereditary rule a +25% culture bonus, with an additional +25% Culture in the Capital. It KIND of breaks the 2 effects per civic rule, but not be a great deal. It might need something negative to balance it out-either a slightly higher maintainance cost, or some reduced yield of some description.
As for Oligarchy, I am thinking the same thing-only with gold. What do you guys think? I should also point out that, with some help from TheLopez, I am adding new tags to the Civics XML, so as to give me greater latitude for modifying the civics.
Anyway, any other suggestions, please don't hesitate to let me know.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[dh_epic]

It might be a good idea to decide the basic effects first, and then mostly work with number tweaks. The temptation is to add all kinds of effects until you find the right balance, but really, it's better to work with the numbers you've got. For both simplicity of the civics, and ease of finding the sweet spot.

Maybe hereditary rule just needs a lot more happiness from castles, or something.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Thanks for the advice, DH_Epic, but I confess that I had been leaning towards a flat-out bonus from the start, but just wanted Hereditary rule to look a little more like Representation. Its true though that HR is too early for having lots of specialists in your cities. I think I will make the changes, post it, and let others be the judge.

BTW, I will now be moving all of this into the Mod Components Forum, under a better title. Also, I probably won't start on Stage 3 until I have had a chance to alter the CivicsInfo XML file-by adding extra tags.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aranor]

Aussie Lurker I absolutally love this Mod! I have been playing with the first version for the past 3 days and love it. I have just downloaded the new version and it looks fantastic! Kepp up the good work!