Civil War

Semulin, i was refering to the idea of the cities-states.....
I must say that i've do that comment out of time, because that comment was refered to Headline's post...
 
Yes on Civil War! Moreover, if an opposing Civ conquers your capitol, the government should split in two: a vichy state and a free state. You would still control the rebellion side and maybe if you got your original capitol back, you would gain the vichy cities back, too.

If your Civ conquers another's capitol, you would get to control the vichy side or it could function as a locked alliance.
 
Vichy state? Is this has any relation with the WW2? (Vichy Government in France)
But i get what you mean...
In the next civ, if it will exist these civil wars, then you can choose too begin a game as being a rebel faction of a civil war created as you create a new game (of course the pc would create the age and the cities of all the civilizations)
 
Originally posted by Comrade Pedro
That is also a good idea, but i think this will only apply to the ancient times and end almost in the medieval times. I'm saying this, because if we see the facts of history, we realized that this happens only in this period.

Yeah, exactly. All major civilizations will somehow conquer or acquire these city states until the border of one civilization is right next to the other civilizations. This process will usually finish before the modern time. There are examples of such city states that was not assimilated until today. e.g. Swiss, Loxembourg, Ireland, Yugoslavia.

Notice that as time progress, player has more time to build cultures within his cities, so it is harder to have the civil war I described in the modern time.
 
Yeah, that will be a great idea.
 
Originally posted by Comrade Pedro
In the next civ, if it will exist these civil wars, then you can choose too begin a game as being a rebel faction of a civil war created as you create a new game (of course the pc would create the age and the cities of all the civilizations)
After reading that, I must be at McDonalds because I'm lovin' it! ;) Seriously though that would be a great way to start a game. You could even specify the map size, shape, and era you begin in. It'd be a truly unique way to play.
 
Originally posted by Comrade Pedro
Vichy state? Is this has any relation with the WW2? (Vichy Government in France)
But i get what you mean...
In the next civ, if it will exist these civil wars, then you can choose too begin a game as being a rebel faction of a civil war created as you create a new game (of course the pc would create the age and the cities of all the civilizations)

Yep, you can have Vichy Babylon and Vichy Rome! :)
 
Originally posted by JazzToucan
Yep, you can have Vichy Babylon and Vichy Rome! :)
Maybe the new state should be named after its new capital, like Vichy France. Then we'd have some unusual civilization names like Ur Babylon, Caesarea Byzantine, Nottingham England. :crazyeye:
 
I still say my province idea would be perfect for civil wars... and would add just as big a new addition to the game as culture did [probably even more!]
 
There are a lot of good suggestions here, but not all can be combined IMHO. I want to address some things that have come up here, so the following will include ideas by many.

I agree wholeheartedly with Judgement in that corruption should be remodeled and civil wars be implemented as the main brake. The corruption model is by far the single most annoying feature in Civ3, as it renders your furthest away cities completely useless. I can understand that corruption represents simply that your nation as a whole cannot benefit from the city (the money is lost somewhere along the way), but the waste-system is horrid. Why wouldn't the people of this faraway city want to build walls, temples, marketplaces? Just because you are not whipping them to action?

I think that culture should be made more decisive than it is now. My idea is a combination of earlier ideas. Let's say that I build a city in a faraway tundra up north where there are no other civs - so no actual cultural flipping. Now the people living there here only distant echoes of the main bulk of my civ and probably don't feel as comfortable with being part of my distant nation as the people living in my capital. So they should begin to think that their interests would be better handled if they handled them themselves. Even more so if they are kept unhappy. On the other hand, their thoughts about the goodness of their ruler might "magically" be better if there were a lot of units garrisoned there.

Now the main idea is that there should be a certain possibility each turn of a city defecting and forming its own nation, and this probability would be tied up with combined culture, happiness and military strength resident in the city - perhaps even distance. Now the point about the culture is that it is more dependant on the main bulk of your empire. The culture that would affect the defection probability should NOT be the culture of the city in question, but the culture of other cities near it. Take the culture of the another city and divide it by distance. Being in the trade-network would decrease the possibility of defection significantly. There is no point in the idea that a distant and lone city with 1000 culture points should not break away of your nation - on the contrary: they would be very aware of their own identity.

This would cause a large nation to rip apart from the edges - as I believe is historically correct. Perhaps the possibility of breakaways would be increased in nearby cities in one broke away - they would use the situation to their advantage and join the fledgling nation.

What would this mean in reality? The city would defect while there were three of your military units inside it. Instead of being destroyed or grabbed away by the breakaway city, they would be tossed out of the city with one hp each (representing the fight they were engaged in when the people rioted). The city in question would then draft a few units (without the unhappiness penalty). You could retake the city by allowing the tossed-out units to heal or by bringing more units. If other cities broke away simultaneously, it might be hard to get them back, even impossible. (Or it might not be worth the trouble, as they would probably defect again).

The new civ would have all the techs you have and would be a wholly new civ (a city-state, if you wish) and would in time gradually expand (and even one day be a real threat to you - or a real ally). This should happen often enough for the player to really think about expanding anymore. Also, the expansion is comparable to your culture, which makes sense.

This way we would have many civs born throughout the game. Your colonies across the seas would revolt and create a new civ (like America...) There could also be some city-states born randomly (much like the barbarian villages now, but more civlike) as Headline suggested.

If your edge-cities are near another civ, they might also be caught by it, as they do now. The size of your nation would increase along with your culture - this would bring a whole new aspect to the expansion-phase: if you expanded too quickly compared to your culture, you would only in effect create new civs around you.

Most needed IMO is the re-thinking of culture. The possibility of flipping should not be based on the city's own cultural value, but on the overall cultural value (and not at all in the actual city's cultural value). The actual city's cultural value would determine if the city would flip to another civ or if it would form a civ of its own. I know that the overall culture does affect in Civ3 as it is now (and it affects a lot), but what I am saying is that the cultural value of the specific city has no effect whatsoever on the the flipping probability. And your capital cannot flip (to prevent your first city, namely capital, revolt on its own at the very beginning, which would of course be stupid).

What do you guys think? Much of this is already said, I only endeavoured to make a coherent presentation of this admittedly great idea. :)
 
Shyrramar, I like the way you think :thumbsup:

Here's my take on the matter:

1) Any unhappy citizen in your cities has a small chance each turn to become a resistor (just like the ones that appear when you conquer a rival city). The chance would get higher the farther from your capital/forbidden palace/secret police HQ/etc, higher if closer to a rival capital/etc., and would be higher for citizens of foreign nationality. Note that even cities with mostly happy citizens often have a few unhappy ones, so this could theoretically happen anywhere, and would lead to two slightly different happiness related goals: trying to get happy citizens to outnumber unhappy ones, so you don't have civil disorder, and trying to turn unhappy citizens into content ones, to minimize the appearance of resistors. And of course, some improvments/wonders make unhappy people content while others make content people happy, and it would matter in some cases which was which.

2) Now, once a resistor appears, the city is in resistance, just like a freshly conquered city, and you need military units to suppress the resistor and turn him back into an ordinary citizen. The more units in the city, the faster this happens. But each turn the city is in resistance, the remaining people get less happy, so you better quell the resistance quickly or more resistors will start showing up.

3) Each turn a city is in resistance (whether as described above, or simply when you conquer an enemy city) there is some chance that a resistor will spontaneously draft themself into a military unit, which would be a foreign unit if it was a foreign citizen but be a barbarian (or brand-new-civ) unit if it had been a citizen of your nationality. If that unit attacked your units defending the city, maybe they would not get the defensive bonus for the city. If it was a foreign unit, the AI might instead choose to move the unit somewhere else rather than simply attacking the units in the city (it would depend on the overall situation of the game).

4) The only way to actually lose a city, either to another civ, or to a brand new civ born in the rebellion, would be if the city was actually conquered. Keep in mind that if the unit created by a resistor was successful in its first attack, there would be fewer of your units left in the city, thus fewer units suppressing the resistance, thus a greater chance that other resistors would appear and maybe draft themselves into hostile units.

To sum it all up...
Most of the time, all that would happen is that the occasional far-off city would go into resistance and you'd move in some extra military units to get things under control. Less frequently, the city would create actual hostile units, but you'd be able to defeat them and keep the city in your empire. However, if you had far away cities without adequete military garrisons, and you let the people there get too unhappy, it might happen that a rebellion would snowball out of control, all your units in that city might get defeated by the rebels, and the city would either pledge allegiance to a foreign power or declare itself the capital of a brand-new civ. If the latter happened, your other nearby cities would now be very close to a rival capital, so they'd have an increased chance of rebelling as well, and if successful, they'd likely join that new civ.

An Example...
You could then imagine that the American Revolution happened something like this: the English cities of Boston, Philadelphia, etc. were quite far from the English capital, and England maybe didn't have as many troops there as it would like because it needed them back in Europe for the war with France. And then maybe access to a luxury (like Tea) gets disrupted, or maybe the dwindling treasury of England prompts it to lower the luxury slider in order to increase the tax slider. In any case, the people's happiness drops, some of the cities go into resistance, a few pop out rebel units, and some of the English troops start getting defeated. By the time England can ship significant reinforcements across the Atlantic, a few cities have fallen to the rebels, and American has declared itself a brand-new civ. The American capital is now much closer to the cities on that continent that remain British, which increases the likelihood that they'll go into resistance as well, and to make matters worse, the new American civ makes diplomatic contact with France and signs an Alliance against England. England fights for a while, maybe occasionally taking back certain American cities, but the Americans capture other English cities in America, and eventually, England has to give up and agree to peace with the new American civ, leaving it with most of the North American cities (not all, the cities in Canada would remain English, for now).

It would be really cool, not to mention more historical, if this sort of thing could happen in the game. Sure, it'd be frustrating if you were England, but think about if you were France: you see some of the an AI rival's cities start rebelling, and think, "cool, let's help the rebels!"

And most importantly, this scheme would get rid of the culture-flips where you suddenly lose a huge stack of units in a defecting city. It'd be much more understandable (from the English perspective) if you actually saw your units fighting and losing, rather than simply dissappearing. Not to mention that the closest Civ 3 could get to the American Revolution would be to have some English cities culture-flip to the Iroquois :crazyeye: .
 
Shyrramar, I like the way you think

It's the only way I know, but thanks anyway :lol:

By the way: your summation is as long as the first "non-summative" part :rolleyes: But that's the way it goes sometimes...

Anyway, I like your ideas. One thing I would like to add, however, is that some system of co-ordination is needed. It would be too easy to quell the (stinking) resistance if the resistors and/or revolter-units came one at a time. I think it should build up, so that when it happened, it would be harder to stop. Apart from the cities being across seas, I find it hard to believe that single conscript units could overthrow your city - atleast if you have more than one unit there.

I think the exact system should be either of these:
(1) When one resistor goes on revolt, all the resistors in the city go revolutionary. So if you have managed to get four resisters in the city, a check would be made each turn for each of them if they will revolt. If one succeeds, the three others would follow. Now four conscripts would be a formidable power considering that you couldn't have many troops in the city if there were that many resisters. The resistors should also have a chance of appearing in numbers. Perhaps following your ingenious idea all the unhappy citizens would become resistors at once? This would make it more prudent to act swiftly or the situation would get out of hand. Otherwise one military unit could always quell the resulting resister.
(2) A resistor would remain hidden until it got enough friends (which could be arbitrary, or a fixed number, or depending on something - the number of overall citizens or military units). Then they would all at once become resistors (first they are an underground "organization", then an open one). Then the same idea would be applied to resistors becoming revolutionaries.

I think the first is better. The second is essentially the same, but would be more complicated. If the probabilities are formulated correctly, the first one is superior by far. I think this is necessary, as most revolutions are lead by some revolutionaries who organize the battles. The revolution will rarely succeed if not led by anyone - and we must remember that they aspire to be a civilization, so they must have a leader and must be organized. This would also make it a real threat - even more in war times, when you may not have enough military units to quell the resistance. Let us not forget, that many nations have revolted while their mother country was engaged in war. WWII especially affected in this way. And Finland broke away from Russia while it was waging the WWI and was in inner turmoil by its own revolution. This is also why I think one revolting city should increase the chances of other revolting too - perhaps the one revolting resister (the leader of the revolution, if you will) would actually trigger ALL your resisters in the nearby cities.

The probability of appearing resisters should lessen to zero (or virtually zero) quite quickly so as to prevent any resisters in empire core. They could turn into resisters, though, if there was a civil disorder. An empire-wide disorder could really become a tough situation, if half of your cities would get resisters. Then if only one of them became a revolutionary, all hell would break loose...Best end those democratic wars in time!

One more thing concerning a possible exploit. A city with resisters should NOT be possible to abandon (that trick would save a lot of trouble, as it would not result in a renegade state). Actually, I think that whenever a city is to be abandoned, a check would be made to see if it would gain independence (this is only rational: would the citizens really just leave?). The probability should be very high if it was a far-away city. This way rampaging a city and destroying it would make more sense - now I mostly just take the city and sell all the improvements and then abandon it. If you would do this, chances are that they would become an independent nation.

This just crossed my mind: what should be done with victory conditions? If mostly abandoned cities became new civs, then acquiring a domination (not to mention elimination) victory would become tedious indeed! One solution would be to ignore the new civs from victory conditions. This would also make sense, as the game is always between the few civs. Nobody seriously thinks that if you have 66% of pop. that means that you really do have - e.g. all the nonpopulated tiles are indeed empty of people! This new system just integrates them into the game. By the way, GalCiv had something like this, minor races. You could do everything with them as with the major races, but they didn't count in the victory conditions.

Judgement. Your example of America and France reminded me that GalCiv-type "shadow-wars" are very much needed. It would be great if you could covertly aid the rebels of another nation with units so that they would conquer a part of the mother nation. When your city rebelled, you would just have to wonder why on earth there are five knights the next turn in there... "I wonder if the French have something to do with this!" :hmm: "Oh, but my friend Alexander, I would NEVER do such a thing, now would I?" :satan:
:lol:
This would not result in a full-scale war (actually no war at all), but would have some of the same effects. I personally fought quite a few wars in GalCiv by building units and donating them to my ally, who happened to be in a war with a civ I disliked. I just didn't want to ruin all my trade-agreements with that civ :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Shyrramar

By the way: your summation is as long as the first "non-summative" part :rolleyes: But that's the way it goes sometimes...
Longer, acually :lol: . Really, though, the summation was just the one paragraph. the example about England and America wasn't really part of the summation. Maybe I'll edit my post...

When one resistor goes on revolt, all the resistors in the city go revolutionary.
Yes, absolutely, I should have thought of that! That way, if you're short on spare troops, you could take a risk and ignore a city with only one resistor for a few turns, cause the worst that would happen is a single rebel unit would appear. But if 4 or 5 citizens are resistors, you'd better get control of things fast or else 4 or 5 units might suddenly appear and wreck your day. Essentially, the number of resistors would be a measure of how dangerous the situation was, not just because units would be more likely to appear from more resistors, but because more units would appear when they did.
One more thing concerning a possible exploit. A city with resisters should NOT be possible to abandon (that trick would save a lot of trouble, as it would not result in a renegade state). Actually, I think that whenever a city is to be abandoned, a check would be made to see if it would gain independence (this is only rational: would the citizens really just leave?). The probability should be very high if it was a far-away city. This way rampaging a city and destroying it would make more sense - now I mostly just take the city and sell all the improvements and then abandon it. If you would do this, chances are that they would become an independent nation.
Good thinking! Personally, I'd like to see it such that only size 1 cities can be abandoned. You should have to move the rest of the people manually by creating workers. Your idea about the citizens rebelling when you try to abandon the city is a good one, though.
 
Yes, absolutely, I should have thought of that!

Yes, you should have :nono:

Personally, I'd like to see it such that only size 1 cities can be abandoned.

Oh, please no! Sorry to say, but I must totally disagree with you on this. I absolutely HATED it in Civ2 where you had to build ridiculous amounts of settlers to get rid of a city. It may not be realistic, but it was pure horror. I still wake up in the middle of the night from a pool of cold sweat, screaming. :cry:

It would be unnecessary anyway, as you could abandon the city and perhaps form a new civ. If you are intent on really destroying the city, you should abandon it and then kill all the people in it. The abandoning concept is a bit odd as it is now, for I would think that the 150,000 people in the city would object their total annihilation...?
 
technology could also affect this.
When you discover Nationalism, beware of those newly captured cities, and those with a more foreign cititzens and normal cititzens because they could rebell.
 
I absolutely want the return of civil wars. They add a very interesting part to the game.
 
Maybe you should also give civilizations the ability to foment civil war in rival civilizations - this could be an additional option under the espionage menu. It shouldn't be easy though - it should cost a LOT of gold, and be available only when your spy there is a veteran or elite (if they can become elite - i've never had one). If you're unsuccessful, it should cause a MAJOR diplomatic incident with your prospective victim very likely to declare war on you.

Also, you should have the ability to supply weapons (in the form of units) to any of the factions you choose to support.

I love the idea of reinstating civil wars!
 
Originally posted by Shyrramar
Oh, please no! Sorry to say, but I must totally disagree with you on this. I absolutely HATED it in Civ2 where you had to build ridiculous amounts of settlers to get rid of a city. It may not be realistic, but it was pure horror. I still wake up in the middle of the night from a pool of cold sweat, screaming.
Okay, Okay, I must admit, I very rarely abandon a city in Civ 3, and I can't recall ever doing it in Civ 2, so I wasn't really thinking about the logistics, just the realism (what happens to all those people?). As long as we avoid the exploit of simply abandoning any city with resistors, abandoning cities that are big is fine. Maybe some refugees could appear or something (but that's a different topic).

Your suggestion that it be impossible to abandon any city with resistors in it is great, although we might still need something else as well, to stop people from abandoning cities that were likely to produce resistors but hadn't yet. I like your idea that when you click "abandon" the city has a chance to rebel instead.
 
@enigma2010: I think that the whole of the diplomacy should be re-thought. This is one part of diplomacy/espionage, and should not need any elite spies. You could just aid the revolutionaries with units and money. This would of course worsen your relations with the civ in question, but should not cause war immediately. They could demand you to stop aiding the revolutionaries, or face the consequences. Then they might or might not start a war if you didn't comply. The AI shouldn't start wars so eagerly: it is much more intelligent to lose one city to revolutionaries than to lose five in a hopeless war against someone bigger than yourself!
 
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