Civilizations rated by tiers

[Infiltrator]

Because Bushido mainly comes into play when things are going wrong for you. It's great for suicidal rushes the AI likes to do, but for a human player trying to keep his units alive it's mediocre. It's not a bad ability, it's just not great.

Not true at all. You are going to get your units wounded no matter what, even more so against human than computer players.

 

[pi-r8]

Because Bushido mainly comes into play when things are going wrong for you. It's great for suicidal rushes the AI likes to do, but for a human player trying to keep his units alive it's mediocre. It's not a bad ability, it's just not great.

Yeah, this was my thought as well. I never understood why so many people seemed so excited about it. It's like the protective ability from Civ 4- great for a mindless AI, but nearly so good for a human.

 

[xcaine]

Yeah, this was my thought as well. I never understood why so many people seemed so excited about it. It's like the protective ability from Civ 4- great for a mindless AI, but nearly so good for a human.

Bushido - I hate it when I play against it, but I don't love it when I play with it.

 

[Slvynn]

this thread need more ******ed stuff like in an op, really

every civ and stuff viability based on settings, and as being game it can be played with many settings which change tiers .... i find siam bonuses being utterly useless in normal mp games, while germania are awesome with their spears>pikes for 10 gold...
some stuff is unbalanced - yes, but all that ballance is very variable and reallt depends on map-settings...
can't say i like this.... civ 4 was more balanced.... at least mp games played with random so noone got complaints

 

[Antarion]

I agree. Jaguars upgraded become very scary

then you should never touch ottomans or your will cry unbalanced as hell

the goal is to survive with a navy who protects you until you get gunpowder and conquest the world.

 

[Antarion]

this thread need more ******ed stuff like in an op, really

every civ and stuff viability based on settings, and as being game it can be played with many settings which change tiers .... i find siam bonuses being utterly useless in normal mp games, while germania are awesome with their spears>pikes for 10 gold...
some stuff is unbalanced - yes, but all that ballance is very variable and reallt depends on map-settings...
can't say i like this.... civ 4 was more balanced.... at least mp games played with random so noone got complaints

thats why i also play only continents in MP seems to be the only way for some kind of balance.

 

[Antarion]

Bibor, that was the very post you have made that I have read in which I disagreed with. Not only do I think that Alex that is slotted correctly (and alone), I have found iron not to be scarce, let alone rare. In the current map I am playing (standard, two continents), I could at least 20 iron hexes spread evenly throughout the land. Other standard sized maps seen something similar.

w8 until uranium and tell us again there is enough resources

you should always analyse UA like what does it offer early game, does it help in late phase and if not what else offers a civ in late game (UB or UU?)

if you use this on the russian trait u will see the BIGGEST advantage early on is the production boost and the krepost! try this with a liberty tech and you will get great results. i normally (setting ofc normal continents) build 5-6 cities and try to get the hanging gardens. my first building in town is normally momument followed by krepost. cities with krepost are great at producing skilled units and hopefully get new strategic resources in the city cross. if you can only find 1 horse or iron its gladly not that big deal for a russian game cose you get atleast twice as much.

in late game you get double amounts of uranium which is even without nuclear wpns a big boost thx to nuclear plants.

use this rule early game strength, late game bonus to every civ and you find out noone sucks.

 

[Nunya]

Not true at all. You are going to get your units wounded no matter what, even more so against human than computer players.

Yes, you are going to get your units wounded no matter what. And when you do your enemies will suffer greater loses than normal when they finish them off. That's why Bushido is useful. But it's not god tier, not by a long shot.

In order to get the most out of whatever ability your civilization may have you have to put yourself in situations where the ability is useful. So when playing as Ghandi you'll want large cities and when playing as Alexander you'll want many allied city states. The problem of Bushido stems from the simple fact that the sort of situation in which Bushido is most useful (your units are badly wounded) is a situation that you are working hard to avoid.

Essentially the reason why Bushido isn't great is because it prevents you from losing, instead of helping you to win.

 

[Infiltrator]

Yes, you are going to get your units wounded no matter what. And when you do your enemies will suffer greater loses than normal when they finish them off. That's why Bushido is useful. But it's not god tier, not by a long shot.

In order to get the most out of whatever ability your civilization may have you have to put yourself in situations where the ability is useful. So when playing as Ghandi you'll want large cities and when playing as Alexander you'll want many allied city states. The problem of Bushido stems from the simple fact that the sort of situation in which Bushido is most useful (your units are badly wounded) is a situation that you are working hard to avoid.

Essentially the reason why Bushido isn't great is because it prevents you from losing, instead of helping you to win.

I never said Japan is God tier.

Bushido is not nearly as bad as you make it look like. And it always comes to mind when I play with other civs as "man, wish I had bushido here".

Case in point - I have 2 cavarly units that are sieging a city, one is full hp the other is half hp, when I cursor over the full hp one, I see a fat attack bar by me and a low one by the city. I do the attack and now get to my 5 hp cavarly unit.. only to find out, that despite both of them having same promotions, this one will do much lower damage, and might actually get badly wounded in the process. Things like these can very much decide the outcome of the game.

Things like the one I described above WILL happen as long as you have any kind of conflict, so it's really easy to make use of Bushido. Other than that, nobody seems to mention that with Populism from Autocracy, wounded Japanese units always deal 125% damage (disregarding other factors).

 

[Slvynn]

some traits can be much more then bushido when it comes to economy.... more xpansion, mosre gold/science counting on UU-UB.... Lets say no bushido rifles pown bushido muskets, right??

 

[Infiltrator]

some traits can be much more then bushido when it comes to economy.... more xpansion, mosre gold/science counting on UU-UB.... Lets say no bushido rifles pown bushido muskets, right??

Emphasized the important word. Depending on circumstance, even Suleiman's UA can be better than Bushido. So yea with babylon you might be able to tech faster and get rifles sooner, but who is to say you will survive the the medieval period? Under the correct circumstances, you will. If you're right next to each other, slingshotting would result in a quick death (note that I am talking about human vs human).

 

[Brawndo]

I strongly disagree with the Indian Unique Building being useless. Mughal Forts give +2 Culture and +9 Defense, and in the industrial age with Flight, they generate enough gold income to pay for themselves and make up some of their earlier maintenance costs. I never build castles, but Mughal Forts go in all of my cities

 

[R3dKnight]

Bushido - Relentless army power
Powerful Navy that doesn't have to stop for repairs - Ranged unit requires less rest since they do full damage despite being damaged, air bombers etc. Stop thinking in melee terms.

Sacrificial units are always an option to draw enemies to the open, so this tactic is more devastating as well when Japanese use them. Bushido lasts forever too, so it's a UA that never expires.

Definitely Honor state policy will shine with these guys. Everything about Japan screams warmonger, definitely a waste if they're peaceful.

Alexander - Dominate in Classic / Medieval Era
Unique Ability isn't great but can save gold in the long run. When anyone talks about Alexander, it's all about the Companion Cavalry or Hoplites.

His Hoplite doesn't require resources so it's always an option to dominate early game. Classic Era domination is what he does best. Playing him on marathon will break the game. Nothing the AI can throw at you will counter 2 hoplite rushing a city state for a quick plunder.

Use the gold to buy more hoplite, rinse n repeat. Tech up to Companion Cavalry later when horses become available for extra punch. Also, Hellenic States never expires, Companion Cavalry outruns tanks as well. Use his early units to setup a strong puppet empire then use the accumulated gold to ally with city states for their resources. Patronage State Policy is excellent for Happiness & gold saving.

China - The Greatest General
Once again, Unique Ability that lasts forever. Wonderful mix strong crossbow and gold generating library. I cannot complain about this Civ. If you go early Honor and grab Great General, they can emulate Alexander classic domination that doesn't lose its power throughout the eras. Go for Honor Great General then dominate with Spearmen early army that are unstoppable when backed with Chu Ko Nus.

 

[Daniel D]

Some UAs would be better described as situational rather than mediocre/bad. Bismarck's ability is a lot better at marathon speed. Harun al-Rashid's trade route bonus stands out more on massive maps than it does on smaller ones.

 

[waytofailself]

Songhai are definite tier 1 for me too. Depending on the map you can get by on just barb camp and early rush money for a pretty long time. Their UB means you don't need to worry about culture and their UU is fantastic for taking cities. Also, they're killer on archipelago maps.

Just finished a game with Songhai and I have to agree with this. Their UA is amazing if you focus on killing barb camps early. Pillaging cities also nets a ton of money. I didn't get to test the ability to defend as embarked because I was on a land map, but I can imagine it's very useful.

As for their UU? 30% attack bonus to cities turns them from knights to blitzers. They're fast, they can swoop in on cities from a distance, and they can pull back and get out of dodge in a hurry. I just wish I had more of a chance to use them in my game -- but I was so strong I finished it super early.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Looks like the list did what you wanted to, which was provoke some discussion.

It's not a bad list. Some thoughts:

- You underrate Gandhi. Free Happiness without having to produce buildings or burn Social Policy choices is incredibly strong. Gandhi is a tech monster as a result. He's not Zakharov, but it's noticeable. An extra dozen to two dozen pop early on translates into a lot of Science due to Free Thought and TPs.

- You underrate Napoleon. That culture translates into extra Social Policies, which can be very key. There are a lot of ways that his culture permits you to have your cake and eat it too, such as adopting Rationalism and pi-r8's ICS approach immediately and simultaneously once you have the relevant techs. Musketeers are decent. Think of them as cheap Rifles that you can build with Hammers; you can also delay Rifles for a bit. The Foreign Legion gives you a strong late push if you need it.

- Harun al-Rashid is going to be bad until they make his UA do ranged damage to Pikes. He's a civ to keep an eye on after the first big round of changes. He may leap up into the top tier, depending on exactly what the devs do.

- Your third tier civs are all pretty playable. Montezuma doesn't belong there, although I wouldn't bump him up to Tier 1 status. The UU is nice, but you tech past Warriors too quickly because you simply must get to Iron and Swords to conquer after the first thirty turns. As a result, you never seem to have enough upgraded Warriors late in the game, as they will take the occasional casualty. Their Warrior rush is absolutely brutal, though. Never build a Worker with this civ.

- I'm not sure why people like Bushido so much. It gets units killed. Sure, they do more damage on the way out. But a half strength melee unit that just took out another unit on rough terrain is still going to get wasted on the counterattack, because it is short on HP. The basic issue is that you can't afford to lose units, so you still have to be a big chicken with your tactics. This is the main reason why Horsemen are so good. It's not the strength. It's the speed, conferring the ability to strike and dodge out of counterattack range.

- I wouldn't lump Ramkhamhaeng in with those other Tier 1 civs. The Elephants have a very significant drawback - speed. They're inferior to Rifles, which you can have earlier via beelining Gunpowder, then popping Scientific Revolution. I'd place him a bit below Askia. Triple city pillage tends to be a bit more cash-efficient than a 50% bonus to city-state gifts, and the UU is marginally better because his upgraded Cavalry become vicious city-busters, obviating the need for Artillery.

I'd place it as (placement within tiers is ordered):
1 - Greece, China, Babylon, Persia, France, India
2 - Songhai, Siam, Rome, Aztec, Japan, Egypt, England, Arabia
3 - Russia, Iroquois, Germany, Ottoman, USA

The lines between tiers are somewhat arbitrary. India isn't hugely better than Songhai, and Arabia isn't hugely better than Russia.

 

[Infiltrator]

A popular opinion is that a japanese unit will die "just as easily" with low hp. It won't - Bushido helps your units survive as by increasing the str of your own stack, it diminishes the attack power of the offensive unit while at the same time inflicting more damage to it.

 

[Celevin]

My list:

Tier 1
France, Babylon

Tier 2
India, China

Tier 3
Arabia, Greece, Siam, Romans, Egypt, Persia

Tier 4
Aztecs, English, Iroquois, Russia, Songhai, Japan

Tier 5
Germany, Ottomans, America

 

[Martin Alvito]

A popular opinion is that a japanese unit will die "just as easily" with low hp. It won't - Bushido helps your units survive as by increasing the str of your own stack, it diminishes the attack power of the offensive unit while at the same time inflicting more damage to it.

In practice, I find that this isn't totally accurate. The combat is skewed in your favor, but half-strength or less units still die when defending on Rough terrain where they would invariably survive if at full health, and you end up at half strength taking the tile. This results because of the way hits are calculated.

I find that Bushido is strong when city-busting, but doesn't help you much when trying to clean out the opponent's units. And unit cleaning is always a much larger chore when using melee, as you must with Japan.

Celevin, I get the feeling that you like Culture a lot more than I do. I just race to Rationalism for fast Diplomatic wins.

 

[Infiltrator]

In practice, I find that this isn't totally accurate. The combat is skewed in your favor, but half-strength or less units still die when defending on Rough terrain where they would invariably survive if at full health, and you end up at half strength taking the tile. This results because of the way hits are calculated.

I find that Bushido is strong when city-busting, but doesn't help you much when trying to clean out the opponent's units. And unit cleaning is always a much larger chore when using melee, as you must with Japan.

I must admit that our practical experiences are quite different. There have been many cases where I'm left defending with a single samurai on a hill after 2-3 enemies pile up on him. I also always pick the rough bonus for my warriors as I would later benefit of the free shock 1 that samurai get naturally.

Also, in your example you are considering that the attack force is always fully healed, which is not always the case.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that the samurai GG generation carries over to the upgrades, which means you'll be busting out generals like crazy long after you leave the medieval era.