Classic 33: First Spoiler (end of ancient age)

Better luck next time. Pangea is always tricky, and Emperor level is my nemesis right now. AI expands rapidly and tends to play agressively.

I sent the settler N for 2 moves like most. Those games were on plains anyway.

I thought I was doing ok - traded techs and maps like crazy, got some fur, iron and ivory and I even took a couple of Indian cities after Mao gave them a thrashing.

Unfortunately, I pushed a town a little too close to Mao and he sent his riders after me just when I was going to remove an embattled Ceasar from my expansion area. He was polite up to that point, and even traded me some horses.

I could have fought it out, but the chances of finishing sucessfully were not good. I was barely eeking out a basis for a histograph lead, and was very vulnerable to every other possible defeat.
 
@rrau:
Wow - how did you manage to get to the Dyes before China? :eek:
In my game, and in all other screens that I see, China jumps on those Dyes almost immediately with the city of Shanghai.
Did China then end up beating you to the Furs to the East?
I see that India beat your Knossos to a prime spot. I guess it's a matter of give and take.
 
SirPleb said:
I got Monotheism as my free tech. I then gifted Korea to the Middle Ages and she got Feudalism. I traded her Monotheism for Feudalism.

I got engineering, Korea got monotheism in my game, however, there was absolutely no trade that I could do with respect to these techs, and this started a tech slide. So I am interested to know the mechanics of this trade a bit more. Was your trade straight up, or did you have to kick in additional gold to make it happen? Do you have a rule of thumb as far as having tradeables on hand in order to pick up the other scientific civs techs at each age?

SirPleb said:
Next I gifted Ottomans to the Middle Ages (for the 1/3 chance they'd get Engineering) and to my surprise they got nothing! It seems the Ottomans have been modified to be non-scientific in this game.

Snap, and others here as well. One wonders if there is any point gifting them at the atrt of the other ages, now?
 
al_thor said:
@rrau:
Wow - how did you manage to get to the Dyes before China? :eek:
In my game, and in all other screens that I see, China jumps on those Dyes almost immediately with the city of Shanghai.
Did China then end up beating you to the Furs to the East?
I see that India beat your Knossos to a prime spot. I guess it's a matter of give and take.


my first warrior went N and my first settler went that way, and just beat china, had wanted to settle on middle dyes, but I thought china would settle in that ibt, so took a less than optimal placement and founded off the dye - china then went to settle Nanking to the NE

I went ahead and settled Knossos that close to India hoping for a flip since it was that close to Athens (we had cheap libraries). For the result and the answer to the fur question, you'll have to tune into the next spoiler ;)
 
I don't have much to say for this.. I did a Warrior rush against China early on, but failed to take Beijing and destroy them. Nonetheless they were a lot weaker in my game than in most of the games I have seen. I settled in a tight RCP, using the 3.5/4 ring and the 6.5/7 ring to line up perfectly with the coastline. This is my map in 1000 BC

GOTM33_QSC_Map.png
 
4000 BC: Sent worker NW to stand on mountain. Found wine!
Sending settle 1 space N & 1 space NE to settle city.

3900 BC: Athens Founded. Building warrior. (Grow 10/Warrior 5).
Worker starts road.
Studying Pottery @ 90%. (15 turns)

3650 BC: Got first warrior, started second warrior.
Warrior will head W.

3500 BC: Warrior entered woods and found India warrior. Talked to leader.
Sold Bronze Working for 10 gold.
Score India 50, Greece 49.

3400 BC: Culture expand got wine, got second warrior.
Building settler. (10 turns).
2nd warrior will head SW.
Pottery in 3 turns.

3250 BC: Got Pottery, studying Iron Working. (30 turns).
Traded Pottery +3gp for Ceremonial Burial.
3200 BC: Set science to 100%. (Iron Working in 25 turns).

2900 BC: Got settler science went back to 27 turns. Set Science to 90 %.
Started granary.
Settler will go 4 to the west.
India has 2 cities.

2710 BC: Founded Sparta. Building Warrior.
Iron Working in 19 turns.

2590 BC: Finished road to Sparta, will build road NW on BG.

2470 BC: Sparta builds warrior, going to Athens to stand guard.
Building warrior (4 turns).

2270 BC: Sparta builds warrior, fortified. Building settler (15 turns).

2190 BC: Got Iron Working for 12gp.
Set science to 100%. Warrior Code in 10 turns.
Sparta changes to warrior.

2150 BC: Athens get granary, starts settler.
Korea contacts me.

2110 BC: Sell Iron Working to Koreans for 36gp and contact with China.
Got warrior code from China for 45gp.
Sold Iron Working to China for 45gp.
Sparta finishes warrior, sending to Madras. Building hoplite.

1790 BC: Got wheel for 25gp form china. Set science to 0%
Contact Arabs form Rome for 15gp and 3gpt.
Mysticism from Arabs for Iron Working.
China writing for 3gpt, contact w/Arabras, Mysticism.
India got some contact for all their gold (I fogot to note).
Korea Masonry & 17 gp for , contact w/Arabras, Wheel.
Arab contact w Spain for writing.
Rome gives contact with French for 3gpt &4gp.
China gives 25gp for contact with spain.
France gives Otto., Egypt, for contact with Spain & Korea +
Mysticism & Iron Working.
Otto, give 50gp for contact w/China.
Spain give 18gp for china.
Rome give 31gp for Otto.

This is where I stoped my notes, I keep science @ 0% untill mid MA. This work very good! I had lots of $$$$

I bought every tech for gp + gpt and sold for gp.

590 BC: India and China both got to MA 1 turn before me. Got Both Govs. for gpt sold to every one for all they had. trade feud. for mono.


The only war was Rome and Arabras (they both said pay or, I picked or), but I never fired a shot. Paid the world to go to war with me.


Barb were a little trouble, I've seen worse.

I tried to put a screen shot form 590BC but I don't know how to post it sorry.
 
Cuivienen said:
I settled in a tight RCP, using the 3.5/4 ring and the 6.5/7 ring to line up perfectly with the coastline. This is my map in 1000 BC
Ooops! The RCP distances round down, not up. I.e. 4/4.5 are the same distance, not 3.5/4. See >>> this post <<< in the "Do you think you understand corruption?" thread.
 
Cuivienen said:
I don't have much to say for this.. I did a Warrior rush against China early on, but failed to take Beijing and destroy them. Nonetheless they were a lot weaker in my game than in most of the games I have seen. I settled in a tight RCP, using the 3.5/4 ring and the 6.5/7 ring to line up perfectly with the coastline. This is my map in 1000 BC
And to complement Dianthus' note you haven't any city closer than range 4.
Maybe you should look on the above post, check out Dianthus' great utility suite and load up your save in CRPRings.
You will see your cities are placed at distances 4-8.

Edit:
But no need to :cry: .
You have strong city locations, an important point that many people forget in their RCP madness.
You will have some more corruption on average, but your empire is still good for high productivity.
 
The Ottos got no free MA tech in my game either. Besides Korea, who are the other scientifics in this game? Korea and I are way out ahead with Mono and Feud, I'm wondering if there's anyone I can gift up to MA to hopefully get their Engineering.

I didn't move the settler N. Seemed to work ok because Sparta went pretty quickly into the wine/cow spot that others put their capital on. Still, I forgot that I could irrigate those wines under desoptism! Definately slowed me down. I'm just now beginning to expand to the south. This is a good game. I love how all roads lead to Rome :)
 
Actually, it doesn't really matter, since I doubt I'll be finishing this GOTM anyway. I'd have to finish it in the next two days since I'm going away.

I don't understand RCP and nothing anyone writes will ever fix that.
 
I am determined to finish this game TONIGHT. I'm leaving this weekend for 2 week vacation (no CIV for 2 weeks! :cry: ).
I lead by 3 Techs, and I am 4 turns away from Motorized Transport [TANKS :drool: ], so I will finally be able to take out my frustrations on the irritating Chinese. Goodbye Mao! :ar15:
 
CIII 1.29 Open

This is my third GOTM, and my first attempt to document the game. My last two games were Space Race and Conquest victories, I am going for a Domination win this time out.

Initial Builds

My initial move was worker N, spotting the wines and BG by the river. I am normally very reluctant to move my settler more than one square, but it seemed justified here. I proceeded with settler W, N, N to found Athens on the river with wines, BG and forest/game in range. The worker mined the BG, roaded, it, then irrigated and roaded both wines. This location allowed for 5 spt at size 2, yielding quick unit production early on. I felt this was important because after moving 3 turns at Emporer level I felt a little bit like that deer in The Far Side cartoon who was born with a big bulls-eye on his chest ('Bummer of a birthmark there, Hal').

<Note: I have screen prints, but cannot upload them due to exceeding 900K maximum size? I assume this is due to earlier posts that are counted against the 900K allowable -- can someone confirm this? If so, I would like to remove the earlier uploads to free up some space.>

Once a few cities were going I chopped the game forest by Athens and irrigated it, allowing for a 5 turn settler pump (growing 5-7). The inital build order was Wa=>Wa=>Wa=>Hop=>Gran=>settler. The plan for most of my other cities was rax, followed by a steady diet of hops and archers. I also have one city designated as a worker factory (granery => workers) and another to pump out cats. City spacing plan is RCP at 4/4.5 for the first ring, then 7/7.5 for the second. Initial research was Pottery at max. (15 turns), followed by Writing at min. (40 turns). However, the tech pace in this game is such that I have traded for all of my techs so far. (Not a problem, with this many opponents it was easy to find profitable trading opportunities and maintain parity.) I sent the first three Was exploring W, N and E (later SW), so I made lots of contacts early. The tech pace in this game is quite fast!

Current Situation

Entered the MA in 900bc. Right now I have 7 cities with total pop. of 18. I have 3 Was, 5 workers, 9 hops, 12 archers and 1 cat. I am the tech leader and have 632 gold and 7 gpt, but I am 7th in the histograph score. I got Mono. as my free tech., and will have sole possession of Lit. next turn. Korea has not yet entered the MA, but I plan on trading for whatever tech it gets. I am just finishing my first ring of cities yet I have already run up against the Chinese to the N, who control luxes, iron and horses that I need. The plan is to attack China with a combined-arms approach using hops/archers/cats to achieve local superiority versus three strategic cities (to get dyes, iron and horses). Smaller hop teams will be dispatched to pillage all iron and horse resources, and to cut all roads leading to/from Beijing. With the archer=>longbow upgrade on the combined-arms teams should be viable well into the MA. If necessary I will bring India into the fray as well.

Unfortunately I am still in Despotism. I would like to be in Republic prior to starting the Chinese war to avoid a despotic GA, but time is of the essense here -- I have to knock China back on its heels before they get to Chivalry and Riders. Worst case is if both India and China get to Chivalry before I secure horses and iron (for knights), then I will be in trouble with both Riders and Jumbos on my borders. If Korea gets Feudalism for its free tech I may have to defer attacking China until I can get to Invention and upgrade the archers to longbows, otherwise I am looking at a matchup of archers vs. pikes (that would take a LOT of cats to equalize).

Long-term strategy: absorb most of the Chinese lands, then build a second core of productive cities to the south by the cows on the river (hopefully I will get at least one GL, otherwise I will consider a Palace jump). This will entail knocking out the French, who resettled in the SE due to an early war they lost with the Ottomans. All depends now on the coming war with China. I currently have 9 hops and 12 archers available for the cause, with just one cat in support. I would like more like 20-30 archers for the inital assault, but I doubt that I have the time to produce that many. I also need to expand my road network northwards in preparation for the coming assault.
I will also consider fomenting wars amongst the other AIs, to slow down the tech pace.

Not an easy position at all, and not a guaranteed win, but I think I can pull it off. Here's hoping that the goddess of the RNG smiles upon me!

<Edited for typos>
 
Bigfoot:
Nice write-up. Your plan is very sound and is very similar to the one I had - I definitley wanted to reduce China before they got the Rider. However, way before I was ready, the Chinese and India went to war, AND they both had Chivalry. I let them beat each other up - China was definitely getting the upper hand - I saw my opportunity to attack India instead of China. I also was using Archer/Hoplite/Cat. I decided not to wait for Lonbows and signed an MA with China against India. The RNG Goddess was VERY kind to my Cats and I was able to take out his redlined Pikes with normal Archer (veteran, of course). and secure almost all of India. Still, it was a 'nail biter' of a war to be sure - very much fun.

Good luck with your warmongering. I have had to wait for Tanks before feeling comfortable attacking the Chinese. In the meantime, I have secured all of India and Rome and I am in the process of eliminating Korea. China is firmly in my sights.
 
Open, PTW 1.27

I sent my worker NE and my settler NW at the start. After seeing the wines I continued on, putting Athens on the river 2 NW, 1N of the start with access to the game and the wines. I built 3 warriors, sending them west, then north, and the third for an MP until I got the wines connected. For once I remembered to change my luxury rate before Athens got unhappy instead of after. I managed happiness relatively well the whole AA. Once the wine is connected I send the MP south.

My 4th build is a hoplite, and then at last a settler. I build Sparta 3 NW of Athens in 2630 and begin my extremely slow growth. Thermopylae is built down south, on the river by the cows in 1600 - I'm after the resources down there. I build another couple of cities somewhere before the end of the age, most of them up north, but I didn't bother to write them down, evidently.

In 3350 I see India's border. A few turns later I meet them, but I have nothing to trade with them. In 3100 I meet China, and again have nothing to trade. This continues, and I meet Korea in 2550 and Rome in 2430.

I started researching with Writing at max speed, which was slow, but I'd hoped to get faster. In 2190 I learned to write and I finally had something to trade- nobody else had it. I had a mad trading party, after which I had gotten contact with everyone, iron working, ceremonial burial, masonry, warrior code, pottery, the wheel, mysticism, and a bunch of gold. I build embassies with China, the Ottomans, and Arabia. I start in on Literature, which I'm promised in 30 turns.

In 1325 I learn literature and start on polytheism at 40 turns. Sparta and Athens switch to libraries. Barbarian horses appear. I trade for horseback riding, math, code of laws, a complete world map, and a bunch of gold, mostly in small chunks. I use the money to buy embassies with everybody but France and Korea. I buy an embassy with France in 1075.

In 925 I complete a road to China and I can start trading - wines for dyes and 12 g. At least they roaded their empire so I didn't have to go all the way to the capitol.

The next turn Arabia demands code of laws and I refuse. They declare war. We do nothing for ages. In retrospect, this was a bad idea. I should have gotten some allies near them and let them kill each other. I have to learn to manage wars better, whether or not I'm actually planning on fighting in them. I have not much in the way of military, but I have not much in the way of anything else either. My empire isn't as unbalanced as usual.

The AA end in 825 BC when the barbs rise up. I didn't have much trouble with barbs. One southern city had no defenders and no improvements and was ransacked a few times. I gave the barbs some nice military targets and let them try to kill them. I think China, India, and Korea got hit more, as they had all expanded into the southern region by this time.

I'm still working on poly, but I decide it is worth buying techs to get into the MA before my free tech becomes worthless. I look around, and I can manage a set of trades to civs who aren't trading with each other that gets me into the MA for a price I can afford. Maps and money to Spain for poly; poly, lit, code of laws to Korea for currency, maps and money; currency and money to India for construction. I get engineering. I sell poly to Rome and Egypt for money. China, Ottomans, Spain, and India are in middle ages, but none have any MA techs. I'm still at war with Arabia, so I don't know what their situation is. I give Korea construction, they get feudalism, and we trade straight across. I build an embassy with Korea and start in on monotheism with a scientist.

The ancient ages went about as expected - nothing exciting and poor to middling expansion. I've gotten good enough at trading that I'm not lagging by an age in tech. I'm pretty comfortable now playing at monarch level, so I went into the game hoping to be able to eke out a win. After seeing the map those hopes went down the tubes, but my head was still above water as we entered the MA.
 
Sandman2003 said:
I got engineering, Korea got monotheism in my game, however, there was absolutely no trade that I could do with respect to these techs, and this started a tech slide. So I am interested to know the mechanics of this trade a bit more. Was your trade straight up, or did you have to kick in additional gold to make it happen? Do you have a rule of thumb as far as having tradeables on hand in order to pick up the other scientific civs techs at each age?
My trade was straight up. That surprised me a bit. Monotheism is worth a bit more than Feudalism but at this difficulty level I expected I'd still have to sweeten the deal. When possible I try to enter new eras with a nice chunk of gold in the treasury, over 1000g would be good to have entering The Middle Ages. (More for later eras is desirable.) But going in with less can usually be made to work out. Do you know about putting your science and luxury sliders to zero before negotiating at a time like that? You can only negotiate with the gpt you have available after what's used by the sliders. Sometimes it is worth putting the sliders to zero while trading and putting them back afterward to run at a deficit for a while. In all cases when trading for beginning of era techs my intention is to get back any gold I pay for a tech as soon as possible in a subsequent deal with that Civ.

Sandman2003 said:
One wonders if there is any point gifting them at the start of the other ages, now?
I don't think so. Ottomans just aren't scientific it seems.

Melinder said:
Besides Korea, who are the other scientifics in this game?
I have not watched them all to make certain but I'd be surprised if there are any others. I'm guessing that Ottomans were modified to non-scientific to level the field between Civ3 and PTW, so changing any of the other normally not-scientific Civs to be scientific seems unlikely.
 
Well, this is the second GOTM that I've played and the first I'm going to do a spoiler for. After reading the plays of others here I felt moved to write my own and see if I match up, being kind of new to Civilization 3. If it seems unprofessional just bear with me.

Difficulty Class - Conquest

Where to start? Well, I'll start by saying that it turns out that my route in the early game dirastically differs from most here. During my opening turns I bumped into a Chinese warrior and settler that were still quite close to their city. My warrior was just in sight of their boarder. I don't want to tell the whole story in my introduction, but to be brief I eliminated the Chinese threat entirely. I'm inclined to believe that they were a driving force behind the rapid technology advancments in this game. At the point in time I reached my middle ages, the most advanced civilization, the Ottomans, were 5 techs ahead of me, with only 4 of those being from the middle ages. It is 30 B.C. Most others here were entering the middle ages, no doubt slightly behind in the race, around 1000 B.C. This is a rather interesting find, as in your games the leader should have 2, 3, maybe even 4 more techs then that by this time. This knowledge makes me optimistic that I'll be able to pull ahead from an other wise slow start.

The Opening Game

Like most here, I moved two spaces north of our initial position. Athens was founded along the shores of what will be dubbed the Athens River in 3900 B.C. I sent one hoplite through the mountains in a westward direction to explore and fortified the other in Athens. A few turns later in 3650 B.C. I sent my first warrior exploring to the north along the Athens River. My exploring hoplite quickly came to the end of the mountain chain and continued west to see how far out the jungle went. In doing so he stumbled upon the Indian civilization whose city was located southwest of Athens. There was a quick exchange of knowledge before my hoplite headed north.

War With China

To the north my warrior had encountered a Chinese settler with a warrior escort. Contact was made and knowledge was exchanged. Then I got to thinking, "I decided at the beginning that I felt like getting a conquest victory. This would be as good a time as any to start." Indeed, it was a strategic decision. If my warrior could manage to kill that escort and capture the settler not only would it net me two free slaves but it would cause China to stop focusing on expansion and technology. The downside would be that they'd focus on taking over my cities. But I had an advantage. First, they had no clue where Athens was. Second, even if they did find Athens they'd still have to produce troops with a fledgling city and run them down there. Third, they'd have to get through the defenses, which were now two hoplites. If things went sour I could always just fend off their attacks with hoplites guarding workers and escorting settlers. If I played my cards right the war could work out for me whether I won or 'lost'. As it was, I won. I defeated the enemy warrior and directed my prize toward wines south of Athens (my starting workers were busy digging a path through the forests to the north to the site of what would be my second city). I directed my exploring hoplite to the north in the general direction of the chinese city which had come into view when my warrior moved into the position the settler had been in.

Sparta was founded in 2750 B.C. and set about producing an archer. Giving me the Warrior Code would be China's undoing. Meanwhile, for better or worse, my hoplite to the west had attacked and defeated a Chinese warrior, triggering a Golden Age. A rather shocking amount of warriors, archers, and spearmen poured out of the fog and into sight of my warrior and slaves. I was starting to wonder whether I could possibly take on all those units. I probably wouldn't have been able to, but I had both the money to support a relativly large army and the production to churn it out due to fully improved tiles around Athens and the woodland game outside Sparta. One hoplite was already in Sparta and two were in Athens. They were soon joined by an archer produced by each city. The first died in his first fight, redlining a fortified warrior outside Sparta. The second took out that warrior as well as two spearmen and another warrior that had moved (but apparently not fortified, at least not the first spearman) within striking distance of Sparta. This archer, followed by another fresh from Athens, struck out north to take out two archers headed toward Sparta. With my two archers on a mountain and China's two on a grassland tile north of the mountain, they didn't have a chance. One of my archers attacked and killed flawlessly, and the second was taken down to yellow by the remaining archers following counterattack.

By this time my western hoplite had uncovered the tiles surrounding Beijing. It was apparently their only city, only size 1, and they apparently had no other units wandering around as they had no contacts other then me. This being the case, I sued for peace and got The Wheel and 58 gold out of it. I closed the diplomacy screen, re-opened it, and declaired war on them again. As far as I know this ruins your reputation (especially since I still had that hoplite in their territory). But if they don't have contact with anyone else, no one else has to know. So I decided to devote my resources to building two more archers and an attempt at taking Beijing. Meanwhile, my hoplite pillaged a mined cattle with road access, a mined wild game with road access, and I believe a shield grassland tile that was mined and had road access. A very nice starting position. A Chinese archer left the city to defeat a barbarian to the north, putting him in range of my hoplite. My hoplite attacked and scored another victory for Greece. This was fortunate as then there were only two spearment in the city as I would learn. With 4 archers at his doorstep, Mao made a bid for peace. He was rejected as he has nothing to offer and my archers attacked. Two died and the last one made it in, capturing Beijing for me in 1870 B.C. A turn before I had founded my third city, Thermopylae, making Beijing my fourth.

This did not eliminate China from the game though. I figured that they might just still have troops walking around. There would have been little I could do about that unless they came back. Howeve I initiated diplomacy with them a few turns later and found that there was a city under their 'Cities' heading: Canton. This was not good. This meant that they still had two cities somewhere. I demanded Canton in a peace agreement and they conceded. The city was south of the jungle to the south of us. Due to the corruption and the barbarian attacks that I realized would be regular, I soon abandoned the city.

With the Chinese basically defeated, or at least driven out of my potential land for expansion, I decided to bring my early campaigns to a close and focus on expansion peaceably.

The Era of Expansion

It was now 1675 B.C. I had found horses to the south of Beijing and was making preparations to send a settler there to claim it. My fifth city claimed the dyes between Sparta and Beijing. At about this time the Indians demand 21 gold from me. Not being ready to get in a fight with the swordsmen I suspect they now have, I decide it would be best to humor them. It was at this time that I also started planning out how I'd catch up in the technology race. I had fallen a bit behind due to my lack of expansion and apathy toward diligent tech trading earlier. I believe I was three or four techs behind the most advanced civ I knew of (probably tied for the most advanced, in retrospect, as they were constantly later when I had more contacts to compair them to) which was India. I had also completely abandon exploration during my campaign and now it seemed as though boarders had filled up all the open spaces, making exploration difficult and effective tech trading impossible as a result. I decided that building up my own economy and mass producing settlers would be wiser then taking any time to build units to explore.

Mass produce I did. I honed in on claiming and working land and as a result built 12 towns spread from the jungles in the south to the two silks on the peninsula to the north and from the eastern shores to the desert to the west. They're fairly well developed at this time, this time being 30 B.C. They have abnormally low populations for cities of this time and there's still a bit more forest then I'd like for this terrain, but about 70% of the tiles that are being worked are mined/irrigated and have road access. This percentage is climbing fairly rapidly. I've had a few set backs in building due to those damned barbarians, but I'm recovering well enough. All other factors of my civilization are a little below par, but they're improving steadily.

Resources

I have access to Iron, Horses, Dyes, Wines, Furs, and Silks. I have access to two or more of every luxury resource and can trade them for techs and military alliances in order to keep the other civs powers in check (at least I hope. I'm not sure with how I double crossed the Chinese) or I can give them away to placate other civilizations and get better prices on techs. It looks like I might be forced to pay gold up front, so I'll need those good prices. I think I have a large enough territory to have a reasonable chance of saltpeter appearing within my boarders. It looks as though it'll be near Beijing if it's anywhere. If it isn't, it'll be in Indias territory. That I am quite sure of. I'll have to take them down quick if that's the case. I'll have to get Gunpowder quick so I can actually check on that.

City Improvements

I'm lacking in this area. I'd like to get a temple, library, and marketplace in every city in a reasonable amount of time, but that's going to be a rather large undertaking. Especially since Athens just happens to be in a virtual corner! Half of my cities are simply a morass of corruption, although I'm still in despotism. I'll soon have monarchy though, so I hope that improves things a bit. If it doesn't improve things, add Courthouses to that list. I don't particularly feel like becoming a republic with the wars to come, even with the unit support it offers.

As far as gold per turn goes, that's coming along suprisingly well. With some marketplaces I hope to surpass 20gpt soon.

Military

I have about 12 hoplites and 10ish swordsmen right now. Soon to have more swordsmen and probably more hoplites. As soon as possible I plan on upgrading these to Persian Mercenaries. These are the units I intend to fight the upcoming wars with. I have to juggle this production with the production of civic buildings. This is going to be the toughest balance if I want to raise an army to take out my neighbors right now.

Technology

I'm five techs behind the Ottomans and probably the Indians right now and two to four techs behind everyone else. Certainly not a hopeless situation, but it does mean that I need to scramble to get Gunpowder. I'm considering alternate methods to getting ahead fast, as opposed to creeping ahead in research myself with a couple bought here and there.

Those Damned Barbarians

This map is rife with barbarians. I didn't have too much difficulty with them untill 800 B.C. There were TWO massive barbarian uprisings in the same turn. Within a couple turns both were heading not for the weak Chinese and Egyptian cities that were closer to them, but to my cities. It turned out that one uprising took place in the west and one in the southeast. Both were composed of 16 horsemen. I got very lucky in the southeast, where a hoplite killed 14 of them, but the west was not so lucky. All 16 hammered the single hoplite and archer in Beijing. After about 11 failed attempts, a horseman finally broke through my defenses and promptly destroyed the temple I'd just spent 30 turns making. It had been there ONE turn, and then it was destroyed. I sobbed quietly as the other horsemen walked off with my hard earned gold. Between these barbarians and the Indian, Ottoman, and Arab barbarians, I couldn't keep gold in my pockets to buy techs. All three countries demanded between 20 and 30 gold. The money taken by barbarians and other civs would have been enough to buy another tech. These were certainly a setback for me.
 
Did you know the forums only allow messages up to 15,000 characters in length? Here's my conclusion. Oh, there's three attachments. I couldn't figure out how to get them into the post so I'll just tell what they are. The 3200bc.jpg is a picture of my plans for invasion of China. Real30bc.jpg is named so because I had two different files for the same picture and I wanted to remember which one to post. This is a picture of my empire thus far. Histograph.jpg is, of course, my histograph and score thus far.


Reflections

Was it a good idea to sack China in the beginning, stunting my own growth but at the same time crippling them for the entire game? I can't say for sure, but I feel optimistic about it. Things are looking up for my civilization, and if I play my cards right I should be able to surpass my immediate neighbors at least. From the looks of it, I would have had a harder time dealing with a powerful China and India if I'd chosen to go with a small, extremely well developed empire as opposed to a larger mediocre empire with the potential to be a powerhouse. In the short term and the long term things look good. The access to iron and horses will be very helpful soon enough. The four luxuries have greatly helped in getting by with few happiness-inducing city improvements.

Was it a good idea to abstain from getting those contacts early on? I made contact with the French just one turn before I reached my middle ages. I might have been able to benefit from getting a galley out there sooner, but I think by the time I got Map Making the damage had already been done. You either get those contacts early and be the tech broker or you don't at all. I think I picked the don't at all, and I think I'll eventually pull out of it.

Future Plans

I need to get larger cities. I also need courthouses. A couple more workers then I have out there now would be nice. Some barracks would be a great help. Leonardo's Workshop would be fantastic for upgrading all of these swordsmen, but somehow I think they'll all be dead and replaced with Persian Mercenaries by the time I get that. I need to get Gunpowder badly. If I got it first, I'd be able to trade it for every single tech that I don't have. The best part is I wouldn't even need to trade to my immideate neighbors to get those techs. This means that I can give it to people who will already get it soon enough and still have an advantage over my current potential enemies. I just have to hope that those far away civs don't go trading it to my neighbors in exchange for an 'Everyone gang up on Greece' pact. I need to build a Forbidden Palace in Herakliea. I figure that if I'm to capture India that it would be the best place for it in order to make India slightly productive. I'm not at all clear on how corruption works though, so I'm just guessing. I need to build up my infrastructure. My road system is a winding mess. It takes my units one, maybe two more turns more then it has to in order to get to a destination. If I am to use Persian Mercenaries predominantly, this must be fixed. I need to switch to Monarchy fast. Corruption is killing half of my cities. Monarchy and courthouses will fix this, I hope. Maybe a palace jump to Corinth is in order. Last, I need to instigate wars between the civilizations to the west. I don't want the Ottomans or Arabs to get too powerful as they're currently becoming. One of them needs to become my ally and the other my enemy for the time being.

Scores Thus Far

1175 B.C. - Toynbee completed his Great History of the World.

Most Powerful Nations in the World
1.) Arabs
2.) Indians
3.) Romans
4.) Ottomans
5.) Greeks
6.)French
7.) Spanish
8.) Egyptians

170 B.C. - St. Augustine completed his Great HIstory of the World

Wealthiest Nations in the World
1.) Ottomans
2.) Arabs
3.) Greeks
4.) Koreans
5.) Romans
6.) Chinese
7.) Spanish
8.) Egyptians
 
SirPleb said:
Do you know about putting your science and luxury sliders to zero before negotiating at a time like that? You can only negotiate with the gpt you have available after what's used by the sliders. Sometimes it is worth putting the sliders to zero while trading and putting them back afterward to run at a deficit for a while.
Thanks for the response and the advice, Sir Pleb. Yes, I have used that trick in the past. In conquests I have even made a whole bunch of citizens into taxmen to enable a deal. Here I didn't actually do that, possibly because I was getting the 'you are a long way away from a deal' message. I might reload my save from that time just to see if it is possible.

It is interesting to note that the various civs do not charge the same amount for the same tech at any point in time (when you are trading or trying to catch up). Maybe there is some factor of the relative impressiveness of you relative to them. I only suggest this because the smaller, less technically advanced civs appear to offer the best tech bargains. Certainly, based on your starting moves, I think it would be a safe bet that your position at entry to the MA would have been stronger than mine. Perhaps this is reflected in your ability to do a straight up trade? If anyone knows of any articles on this point, I would be very interested in a link.
 
Rassnie said:
Did you know the forums only allow messages up to 15,000 characters in length?
Wow! :goodjob: You have got to be the first person in 49000+ members to ever run into that problem in your first ever post! And I'm sure there's only ever been a few people that have run into that problem anyway!

Welcome to CFC, and thanks for a great write-up. :)
 
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