CN Tower

[dexters]

Provides a free Broadcast Tower in all cities. +1 in every city and +1 per city.

I don't really feel this is too overpowered given how late it comes, but it always feels like 2 wonders rolled into one for me.

I think a better idea is to split this into two wonders.

CN Tower: Provides a free Broadcast Tower in all cities +4 Happines & Golden Age (plays into the culture aspect of it); so basically a powered up late game Taj Mahal/Chichen Itza

National Hospital (National Wonder - Required Hospital in every non puppet cities) - +1 in every city and +1 per city Food +25 in Capital +5 in all other cities.
Civilopedia entry will mention Nationalized health insurance, but also include mentions of government funded research like the CDC in US and the general improvements in health from national/government efforts to stamp out various diseases and epidemics and coordinated efforts to contain major new diseases from spreading in the population.

Geared for Tall empires.
I wouldn't mind a World Wonder with the same/similar stats as National Hospital as well so wide empires have a shot at it, and tall empires can double up on the national hospital + wonder if they beeline for it. But I can't think of a good real-world achievement/building for its place.

I know with Civ5 they've moved away from abstract wonders like Cure for Cancer, so I am assuming it needs to be something of a real place/institute.

Note: This is probably more of an Ideas and Suggestions post, but part of the purpose is to see if people also agree that CN Tower's bonuses feels a bit like 2 wonders rolled into one.

 

[Smokeybear]

How about the CDC, instead of a 'national hospital' (no such thing). And no need to make it have any pre-requirements, as late-game wonders are thankfully mostly free of those.

 

[dexters]

CDC will be very US centric, doesn't work for a national wonder.

Same thing National Treasury isn't called the Fed.

Though I would have preferred 'Central Bank' instead, but I understand national treasuries existed for a longer time than modern banking and the national bank ie: Central bank, and given its arrival in the tech tree, it's more appropriate to call it a Treasury.

Edit: I think we can make the proposed World Wonder copy of the National Wonder the CDC.

 

[crawf0rd]

They had to tack on the +1 happiness per city to go with the +1 population per city. A while back, The Hanging Gardens bonus was +2 Population per city. That was it. Of course, building it wrecked your happiness if you were wide, and didn't do as much if you were tall, so they patched it. I'm glad to see they re-added it with The CN Tower, and I think the bonuses are good the way they are.

 

[dexters]

You misunderstood. I'm not saying the +1 in every city and +1 is broken, in fact I prefaced by saying I don't think the wonder is OP, but merely that it feels like 2 wonders rolled into one.

My proposal is to split out +1 in every city and +1 bonus for another wonder. In my suggestion a national wonder. And make it more focused as a tall empire thing.

I agree +1 in every city and +1 in and of itself may not be great, and because my idea of it is for tall empires, I added the extra food for the capital and cities. Though it doesn't have to be that.
It could be +2 in every city and +2 instead.

You'll also note that I gave CN Tower a Golden Age and +4 in place of the pop/happiness bonus, turning it into a late game Chichen Itza/Taj Mahal and making it more inline with its culture orientation (free broadcast towers followed immediately by a GA) = big culture boost with a nice gold bonus to boot.

 

[kaspergm]

I do think CN Tower is pretty imbalanced, albeit it comes at a time in game where game is already decided, which makes it both broken and pointless, which just seems stupid.

But, when talk is on CN Tower, can someone explain to me why I always seem to experience a net increase in Happiness when I built CN Tower? I would assume that the +1 and +1 would cancel each other, but that doesn't seem to be the case, I always end up with a net happiness growth - even when I don't have Freedom and the half unhappiness for specialists.

 

[MisterSaturnine]

I do think CN Tower is pretty imbalanced, albeit it comes at a time in game where game is already decided, which makes it both broken and pointless, which just seems stupid.

But, when talk is on CN Tower, can someone explain to me why I always seem to experience a net increase in Happiness when I built CN Tower? I would assume that the +1 and +1 would cancel each other, but that doesn't seem to be the case, I always end up with a net happiness growth - even when I don't have Freedom and the half unhappiness for specialists.

Maybe some policy like monarchy is reducing unhappiness per population, so it's a net increase in happiness?

 

[JanghanHong]

But, when talk is on CN Tower, can someone explain to me why I always seem to experience a net increase in Happiness when I built CN Tower? I would assume that the +1 and +1 would cancel each other, but that doesn't seem to be the case, I always end up with a net happiness growth - even when I don't have Freedom and the half unhappiness for specialists.

It's because you get 5 percent discount from Liberty policies and/or "1 happiness for every 10 population" discount from Tradition.


Let's say you have the Forbidden palace, and that Liberty policy that gives you 5 percent off population unhappiness, which gives you 15% discount. and that Tradition policy that gives you 1 happiness for every 10 population.

If you have 20 cities by the time you build the CN Tower, you get flat 20 population and 20 happiness, BUT the unhappiness you get from 20 population is 17, because you get 15% discount, on top of that, if 2 of your cities went from 9 to 10 or 19 to 20, you get those discounted as well, giving you a net happiness of 5.


The only way you can get net loss happiness from CN Tower is if you have a lot of occupied cities, because they give more unhappiness than 1:1 ratio from population.


I don't think it's unbalanced, because it comes so late, you have to sacrifice not building broadcast tower for many, many turns, and it's off the path of the spaceship.

I do really like building it though, it reminds me of life outside.

 

[kaspergm]

It's because you get 5 percent discount from Liberty policies and/or "1 happiness for every 10 population" discount from Tradition.

Right, that's probably it.

 

[dexters]

I want to reiterate my point. (just in case it wasn't clear ) I started this thread to point out something else, not to say that the CN Tower is unbalanced or overpowered.

I am suggesting making the CN tower more of a cultural focused wonder / late game Taj Mahal/Chichen Itza

While splitting out the pop boost idea as its own thing. Probably as a national wonder for a more tall empire focused strategy, with extra food or maybe more pop and more happiness boost. Doesn't have to be +1 and +1

 

[kaspergm]

I want to reiterate my point. (just in case it wasn't clear ) I started this thread to point out something else, not to say that the CN Tower is unbalanced or overpowered.

I am suggesting making the CN tower more of a cultural focused wonder / late game Taj Mahal/Chichen Itza

While splitting out the pop boost idea as its own thing. Probably as a national wonder for a more tall empire focused strategy, with extra food or maybe more pop and more happiness boost. Doesn't have to be +1 and +1

Problem is, for those who go for CV, CN Tower comes way too late for them to benefit of free Broadcast Towers (except for the saved Gold upkeep). If you gave this effect to Eifel Tower instead (which does come at the time of Broadcast Towers) it would make sense but would also be overpowered. So while I do agree that CN Tower is somewhat of a misfit in its current form, I'm not sure it will make much difference if you change it into a different cultural wonder instead.

 

[dexters]

Problem is, for those who go for CV, CN Tower comes way too late for them to benefit of free Broadcast Towers (except for the saved Gold upkeep). If you gave this effect to Eifel Tower instead (which does come at the time of Broadcast Towers) it would make sense but would also be overpowered. So while I do agree that CN Tower is somewhat of a misfit in its current form, I'm not sure it will make much difference if you change it into a different cultural wonder instead.

That's a good point, which is probably why they had to add +1 and +1 to begin with.

But is replacing that with a free GA + 4 for a late game Chichen Itza / Taj Mahal that much of a downgrade for a CV player?
If it is I'm sure a strong base state or another 10-30% culture multiplier for the city that builds it on top of everything else would do it.

Wide empires benefit too as the GA will multiply all their gold/production that much more and the happiness is always nice.

 

[kaspergm]

But is replacing that with a free GA + 4 for a late game Chichen Itza / Taj Mahal that much of a downgrade for a CV player?
If it is I'm sure a strong base state or another 10-30% culture multiplier for the city that builds it on top of everything else would do it.

Wide empires benefit too as the GA will multiply all their gold/production that much more and the happiness is always nice.

Well, we have to take into consideration who the target player for the wonder is. I myself suck a playing cultural (I love it, but I obviously doesn't do it properly, because even if I don't lose, I always reach economic/science victory before cultural) - but anyway, hardcore CV players complain that Sydney Opera House is useless because they finish the game before they even reach that point in tech tree - and SOH is one tech before CN Tower. So I don't think we should consider CN Tower a wonder aimed at cultural players.

Quite on the contrary, CN Tower is an excellent wonder exactly for wide empires, and I think we should consider that the target. +1 and +1 is excellent for a wide Civ, and the free Broadcast Tower is just extra benefits. Sure, I will most likely have built BT already in my capital and perhaps even main 2-3 cities, but it'll still save me upkeep and provide BT in all my other cities, and even if I'm not playing cultural, that's basically a net +33 % culture which is pretty sweet - everybody can use more social policies, after all. As such, I think CN Tower is pretty fine as it is.

 

[Moriarte]

Well, we have to take into consideration who the target player for the wonder is. I myself suck a playing cultural (I love it, but I obviously doesn't do it properly, because even if I don't lose, I always reach economic/science victory before cultural) - but anyway, hardcore CV players complain that Sydney Opera House is useless because they finish the game before they even reach that point in tech tree - and SOH is one tech before CN Tower. So I don't think we should consider CN Tower a wonder aimed at cultural players.

Quite on the contrary, CN Tower is an excellent wonder exactly for wide empires, and I think we should consider that the target. +1 and +1 is excellent for a wide Civ, and the free Broadcast Tower is just extra benefits. Sure, I will most likely have built BT already in my capital and perhaps even main 2-3 cities, but it'll still save me upkeep and provide BT in all my other cities, and even if I'm not playing cultural, that's basically a net +33 % culture which is pretty sweet - everybody can use more social policies, after all. As such, I think CN Tower is pretty fine as it is.

I found it very useful in one of my science games. Couldn't finish rationalism in time for 2 free techs, so i used GE from faith and rushed CN, which gave me enough culture to do it in time.

Certainly, CN, Sydney Opera and even Cristo are completely off grid for fast cultural victories. (sub 240 turns). Yet, theoretically, Cristo is achievable through RA spam.

As for target player, i think CN and SoH will blend in nicely with Deity CV, where you go for tech/warfare superiority before culture.

 

[siredgar]

I'm quite surprised by CN Tower. It's not known worldwide and I don't know what kind of impact it has had. Also, there isn't a Canadian civ. It seems overpowered.

 

[Crafty Bison]

Wow, when I opened the thread I expected to find an OP on how useless it was, not that it feels like 2 wonders in one.

I'd be interested to see how others use it, because I've actually never had the chance/got round to building it. Obviously not for any meaningful cultural vc, but I haven't even used it for diplo (which is about the only vc I'd actually tech to it), as I'll usually oxford/rationalism finisher right through it, then be pre-occupied with the UN. Who is actually building this one?

Edit: Does the OP also believe that Alhambra and ToA would also be better split into respective sections?

 

[Cicerosaurus]

What is a CDC?

 

[Browd]

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. They're the guys in white coveralls, with hoods and ventilators, in nearly every "viral outbreak" movie you've seen.

If you watched season 1 of the AMC zombie series "Living Dead," the CDC's headquarters (CDC is based in Atlanta) was the place the survivors made their way to, before fleeing as the nut job set off a self-destruct.

 

[Cicerosaurus]

Thanks Browd. I tend not to watch anything about zombies, but I did see "The Andromeda Strain".

 

[dexters]

The more I play, the more I think the pop bonus is a neat idea.

There can be an inflection sometime after Biology to show a population boom.

Fertilizer gives a good sized pop boost. I think a National Hospital with a non scale-able bonus might be a decent idea.

+2 +2 +5 food to first four cities. That way wide empires don't necessrily get hit with a major boost. And proportionately, tall empires will get a bigger boost, and they can build it sooner too.

CN Tower can keep its bonuses, I will be something players can use to top off their growth goals if they can grab the wonder. I'm not that interested in reverse engineering that wonder. I think in hindsight, I was really just more interested in a growth oriented national wonder in the Atomic/Modern era, to mirror the growth in population over the last 100 years.