CoL Discussion: Section C(Executive Branch)

Donovan Zoi

The Return
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Here is Section C of the DG2 Code of Laws. This section deals with the Executive Branch. Please propose any modifications that will make for a better ruleset, as well as identify any passages that are no longer needed.

Please note that due to a recent poll, Governors will not become a part of the Executive Branch, and therefore shall not be included in this discussion.

Code:
C.  The Executive Branch 
   1.  Presidency 
       A.  The Leader of the Executive Branch is the President. 
       B.  The Deputy of the Presidency is the Vice President. 
       C.  The Vice President assumes all powers and responsibilities of the 
       Presidency during the absence of the President. 
       D.  May initiate Administrative, Legislative, Mobilization and Spot Council 
       Votes. 
       E.  Casts a tie-breaking vote in Council Votes. 
       F.  Organizes decisions on what to do with Great Leaders. 
       G.  Organizes worker activities. 
       H.  Has veto power over Legislative Council Votes (votes on Standards). 
       I.    Organizes policy, plans and agendas for departments when these have 
       not been set by a department. 
       J.   Organizes policy, plans and agendas for items and activities that have 
       not been defined as a task of an individual department or leader. 
   2.  Council 
       A.  The Council of the Executive Branch consists of the Leaders of the 6 
       departments. 
       B.   Each department will have a deputy. The departmental deputy assumes 
       all powers and responsibilities of the department during the absence of 
       the leader. 
       C.  Each department may also have one or more chat representatives. The 
       chat representative assumes all powers and responsibilities of the 
       department during the absence of the leader and deputy in a turn chat 
       only. 
       D.  Department Leaders share several powers and responsibilities, 
        regardless of department. 
           1.   Post polls and discussions to determine citizen desires for 
           departmental policies, plans and agendas. 
           2.   Cast a tie-breaking vote in the polls determining their 
           departmental policies, plans and agendas. 
           3.   Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas based on 
           citizen feedback. 
           4.   Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas of their 
           own in the absence of citizen feedback (forum outage, low 
           participation, etc). 
           5.   Convey these policies, plans and agendas to the President for 
           play in the game. 
           6.   Call Legislative and Override Council Votes. 
           7.   Vote in Council Votes of all types. 
       E.   Some departmental powers and responsibilities overlap. If overlap 
       should cause the creation of non-complementary plans, departmental
        precedence will be determined by rank in the Chain of Command. 
       F.   Domestic Department 
           1.   Organize decisions about settler placement. 
           2.   Organize decisions about wonder building. 
           3.   Organize the science/tax/luxury rate. 
           4.   Organize departmental and provincial budgets. 
           5.   Governor of cities that do not have a provincial governor. 
           6.   Call a Mobilization Council Vote to determine if the economy 
           should be mobilized. 
           7.   Organize mapping of Provincial Borders. 
       G.   Military Department 
           1.   Organize decisions on troop movements. 
           2.   Organize decisions on defensive plans. 
           3.   Organize decisions on offensive plans. 
           4.   Organize decisions on troop upgrades and terminations. 
           5.   Call a Mobilization Council Vote to determine if the economy 
           should be mobilized. 
           6.   When the economy is mobilized for war, becomes the defacto 
           President, superceding the President in the Chain of Command. 
           7.   Can supercede a provincial build queue with military units or 
           improvements during time of invasion. 
               A.   Invasion is the presence of offensive troops belonging 
               to a country we are at war with inside the borders of the 
               province to be superceded. 
       H.   Foreign Affairs Department 
           1.   Organize decisions on declarations of war. 
           2.   Organize decisions on peace treaties. 
           3.   Organize decisions on construction of embassies. 
           4.   Organize decisions on rights of passage. 
           5.   Organize decisions on trade embargoes. 
           6.   Organize decisions on mutual protection pacts. 
           7.   Organize decisions on placement of spies. 
           8.   Organize decisions on intelligence gathering, spying and sabotage. 
       I.   Science Department 
           1.   Organize tech research queue. 
           2.   Organize tech trades. 
           3.   Organize tech espionage. 
       J.   Culture Department 
           1.   Can supercede a provincial build queue with cultural 
           improvements when: 
               A.  The city does not control its full 20 tile radius due to 
               lack of cultural expansion; or 
               B.  The city does not control its full cultural radius due to 
               foreign cultural borders. 
       K.   Trade Department 
           1.   Organize trade deals. 
           2.   Track the status and expiration of established deals. 
   3.   Council Votes (Executive Branch) 
       A.   A quorum requires the attendance of 2/3 of the Council. 
       B.   Administrative Council Vote 
           1.   Called by the President. 
           2.   Affirmative result overrules an elected official’s instructions and 
           decisions for game play. 
           3.   Simple majority of respondents required to override the official. 
       C.   Legislative Council Vote 
           1.   Called by any Department Leader or the President. 
           2.   An affirmative result amends the Code of Standards. 
               A.   The President can veto a legislative vote. 
               B.   The Presidential veto can be overruled by an Override 
               Vote. 
           3.   Simple majority of respondents required to pass the proposed 
           measure to amend the Code of Standards. 
           4.   Judicial Review may occur at any time when requested by the 
           sponsor of the proposal or immediately upon the vote being 
           posted. 
       D.   Override Council Vote 
           1.   Called by any Department Leader. 
           2.   An affirmative result overrules a presidential veto. 
           3.   Unanimous support is required to override the veto. 
       E.   Confirmation Council Vote 
           1.   Called by the President. 
           2.   An affirmative result confirms a Legislative, Judicial or 
           Provincial Governor position. 
           3.   Simple majority of respondents required to confirm the official. 
       F.   Mobilization Council Vote. 
           1.   Called by the President, Military Leader or Domestic Leader. 
           2.   An affirmative result mobilizes the economy. 
           3.   Simple majority of respondents required to mobilize the 
           economy. 
       G.   Spot Council Vote 
           1.   An Administrative vote called and carried out in the turn chat. 
           2.   Tallied immediately in the turn chat. 
           3.   Simple majority of respondents required to pass the proposed 
           measure. 
       H.   Process and Procedure 
           1.   Poll is posted by the sponsoring official. 
           2.   Proposal must be in Yes/No/Abstain format. 
           3.   Forum polls will stay open until: 
               A.   All votes have been cast, or; 
               B.   A quorum has responded and further votes cannot 
               affect the outcome of the vote, or; 
               C.   The posted poll closing time has been reached. 
                   1.   Minimum duration to run a poll is 48 hours. 
           4.   Each Department Leader casts one vote. 
           5.   In the event of a tie where a simple majority is required, the 
           President will cast the deciding vote.
 
DZ, I feel we shouldn't be working on this until we have Article D worked out in the Constitution, but until that time...

Please take out:
1.G
1.H

Please insert:
Governors into 1.J, unless Governors will still be considered Leaders.
4 instead of 6 in 2.A
 
C.1.C should be removed - all deputies should be handled the same.

-- Ravensfire
 
Assuming the current proposal for the Executive Branch goes, or at least without significant changes, I propose the following:

Code:
C.  The Executive Branch 
   1.  Presidency 
       A.  The Leader of the Executive Branch is the President. 
       B.  The Deputy of the Presidency is the Vice President. 
       C.  Organizes decisions on what to do with Great Leaders. 
       D.  Organizes worker activities. 
       E.    Organizes policy, plans and agendas for departments when these have 
       not been set by a department. 
       F.   Organizes policy, plans and agendas for items and activities that have 
       not been defined as a task of an individual department or leader. 
   2.  Council 
       A.  The Council of the Executive Branch consists of the Leaders of the 4 
       departments. 
       B.   Each department will have a deputy. 
       C.  Department Leaders share several powers and responsibilities, 
        regardless of department. 
           1.   Post polls and discussions to determine citizen desires for 
           departmental policies, plans and agendas. 
           2.   Cast a tie-breaking vote in the polls determining their 
           departmental policies, plans and agendas. 
           3.   Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas based on 
           citizen feedback. 
           4.   Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas of their 
           own in the absence of citizen feedback (forum outage, low 
           participation, etc). 
           5.   Convey these policies, plans and agendas to the President for 
           play in the game. 
       D.   Some departmental powers and responsibilities overlap. If overlap 
       should cause the creation of non-complementary plans, departmental
        precedence will be determined by rank in the Chain of Command. 
       E.   Ministry of Internal Affairs 
           1.   Organize decisions about settler placement. 
           2.   Organize decisions about wonder building. 
           3.   Governor of cities that do not have a provincial governor. 
           4.   Organize mapping of Provincial Borders. 
           5.   Evaluate Cultural needs of all cities.
       F.   Ministry of Defense
           1.   Organize decisions on troop movements. 
           2.   Organize decisions on defensive plans. 
           3.   Organize decisions on offensive plans. 
           4.   Organize decisions on troop upgrades and terminations. 
           5.   Track relative strength of foreign nations
       G.   Ministry of Foreign Affairs
           1.   Organize decisions on declarations of war. 
           2.   Organize decisions on peace treaties. 
           3.   Organize decisions on construction of embassies. 
           4.   Organize decisions on rights of passage. 
           5.   Organize decisions on trade embargoes. 
           6.   Organize decisions on mutual protection pacts. 
           7.   Organize decisions on placement of spies. 
           8.   Organize decisions on intelligence gathering, spying and sabotage. 
           9.   Track world-wide diplomatic situation.
       H.   Ministry of Trade and Technology
           1.   Organize tech research queue. 
           2.   Organize tech trades. 
           3.   Organize tech espionage. 
           1.   Organize trade deals. 
           2.   Track the status and expiration of established deals.

-- Ravensfire
 
Originally posted by DaveShack
Some questions:

Does 2.E.5 include overall happieness?

Where are these defined?
  • Budget
  • Cash Rushing
  • Pop Rushing
  • Prebuilds

Overall happiness is a concern for just about everyone. If I had to put one person in charge of it, probably the Ministry of the Internal Affairs. However, many of the factors that impact it are in other areas - MIA should monitor it though.

Budget/Cash Rushing - I would like to see this in the Senate

Pop Rushing - Mayor and Governors

Prebuilds - For Wonders - MIA. For buildings/units - Mayors and Governors.

-- Ravensfire
 
To keep this discussion going (based on earlier proposal, with clarification as suggested)

Code:
C.  The Executive Branch 
   1.  Presidency 
       A.  The Leader of the Executive Branch is the President. 
       B.  The Deputy of the Presidency is the Vice President. 
       C.  Organizes decisions on what to do with Great Leaders. 
       D.  Organizes worker activities. 
       E.    Organizes policy, plans and agendas for departments when these have 
       not been set by a department. 
       F.   Organizes policy, plans and agendas for items and activities that have 
       not been defined as a task of an individual department or leader. 
   2.  Council 
       A.  The Council of the Executive Branch consists of the Leaders of the 4 
       departments. 
       B.   Each department will have a deputy. 
       C.  Department Leaders share several powers and responsibilities, 
        regardless of department. 
           1.   Post polls and discussions to determine citizen desires for 
           departmental policies, plans and agendas. 
           2.   Cast a tie-breaking vote in the polls determining their 
           departmental policies, plans and agendas. 
           3.   Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas based on 
           citizen feedback. 
           4.   Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas of their 
           own in the absence of citizen feedback (forum outage, low 
           participation, etc). 
           5.   Convey these policies, plans and agendas to the President for 
           play in the game. 
       D.   Some departmental powers and responsibilities overlap. If overlap 
       should cause the creation of non-complementary plans, departmental
        precedence will be determined by rank in the Chain of Command. 
       E.   Ministry of Internal Affairs 
           1.   Organize decisions about settler placement. 
           2.   Organize decisions about wonder building, [color=red]including prebuilds[/color]. 
           3.   Governor of cities that do not have a provincial governor. 
           4.   Organize mapping of Provincial Borders. 
           5.   Evaluate Cultural needs of all cities.
           [color=red]6.   Monitor overall happiness of COUNTRY_NAME.[/color]
           [color=red]7.  Coordinate efforts of Governors on national projects.[/color]
       F.   Ministry of Defense
           1.   Organize decisions on troop movements. 
           2.   Organize decisions on defensive plans. 
           3.   Organize decisions on offensive plans. 
           4.   Organize decisions on troop upgrades and terminations. 
           5.   Track relative strength of foreign nations
       G.   Ministry of Foreign Affairs
           1.   Organize decisions on declarations of war. 
           2.   Organize decisions on peace treaties. 
           3.   Organize decisions on construction of embassies. 
           4.   Organize decisions on rights of passage. 
           5.   Organize decisions on trade embargoes. 
           6.   Organize decisions on mutual protection pacts. 
           7.   Organize decisions on placement of spies. 
           8.   Organize decisions on intelligence gathering, spying and sabotage. 
           9.   Track world-wide diplomatic situation.
       H.   Ministry of Trade and Technology
           1.   Organize tech research queue. 
           2.   Organize tech trades. 
           3.   Organize tech espionage. 
           1.   Organize trade deals. 
           2.   Track the status and expiration of established deals.

-- Ravensfire
 
You didn't address my requests, Ravenfire. Now pleas remove C.1.D. You changed its location, but did not remove it as requested.
 
Originally posted by Cyc
You didn't address my requests, Ravenfire. Now pleas remove C.1.D. You changed its location, but did not remove it as requested.

That's because it's where it needs be.

Workers are a national resource, and nearly always a scarce resource. The demands upon our work force are localized (city improvement), regionalized (provincial objectives) and national (global objectives). We need one person to manage all the requests and prioritize them.

We have run into the same problem in all three games - too many demands on too few workers. The problem is always perceived as "that darn President ignoring my orders!" when it's usually the lack of workers causing extreme priotitization of the workers.

Governors (and Mayors) should request worker actions, but the final call over the prioritization should not rest with them.

-- Ravensfire
 
Originally posted by ravensfire
Budget/Cash Rushing - I would like to see this in the Senate
------------------------------
Workers are a national resource, and nearly always a scarce resource. -- Ravensfire
I don't want cash rushing in the senate, it involves too much national interest and is too interlinked and diversive for a Senate of Governors.

It is linked with cultural stability and cultural warfare.
It is linked with Trade.
It is linked with foreign affairs (whether to cave in on demands, to gift or borrow civs something etc.).
It has to do with science.
It has to do with the slider.
It has to do with military power.
It has to do with exploration.
etc.

A Governor's/Senate's task is primarily regional, not national. A good Governor or Senator has to ignore the points I make for the benefit of the provinces, unless requested by the offices to save money. This blocks a national policy on money.

I do agree with your point on workers. Therefore I find it strange you don't consider money a national and scarce resource.

I like your idea of requests for worker actions by the Senate and I think the same should hold true for money; the Senate requests money for cashrushes and the Executive branch approves or disapproves and prioritises the approved ones.
 
Originally posted by ravensfire


That's because it's where it needs be.

Workers are a national resource, and nearly always a scarce resource. The demands upon our work force are localized (city improvement), regionalized (provincial objectives) and national (global objectives). We need one person to manage all the requests and prioritize them.

We have run into the same problem in all three games - too many demands on too few workers. The problem is always perceived as "that darn President ignoring my orders!" when it's usually the lack of workers causing extreme priotitization of the workers.

Governors (and Mayors) should request worker actions, but the final call over the prioritization should not rest with them.

-- Ravensfire

Well with the wording of CoL D.1.C.1 (the second .1) you're going to have problems with the DP assigning work to tiles in a different order than the Governpr wants, etc. You need to go back to the Priority lists, otherwise you will be ignoring the Governors requests.

I doubt anyone in power will budge on this point, that's one reason why I'm glad I'm not running for Governor.

Speaking of CoL Section D, you still haven't addressed my requests there either Ravensfire.
 
Originally posted by Cyc


Well with the wording of CoL D.1.C.1 (the second .1) you're going to have problems with the DP assigning work to tiles in a different order than the Governpr wants, etc. You need to go back to the Priority lists, otherwise you will be ignoring the Governors requests.

I doubt anyone in power will budge on this point, that's one reason why I'm glad I'm not running for Governor.

Speaking of CoL Section D, you still haven't addressed my requests there either Ravensfire.

Your point is accurate, and has happened in the past. This is the system used in DG2 and DG3. Towards the end of DG2 a slightly different system was created as a possible fix. It added a lot of complexity for minimal benefit.

We could create a hightly complex system balancing worker requests from Governors, production capacity and national goals that may, or may not, involve land within province boudnaries (ie the road to a conflict site), but I would NOT want to manage that, nor be the DP that has to interpret those results.

You probably ought to create a thread on worker management to cover this. Ask DZ to allow any decision made there specifically related to worker management to supercede previous decisions.

-- Ravensfire
 
CoL section D - some of us work for a living, ya know? ;)

I usually post when I have a build running and I'm waiting for the compiler to finish up.

I'll look into it next chance I get and reply. :D

-- Ravensfire
 
We could create a hightly complex system balancing worker requests from Governors, production capacity and national goals that may, or may not, involve land within province boudnaries (ie the road to a conflict site), but I would NOT want to manage that, nor be the DP that has to interpret those results.

You probably ought to create a thread on worker management to cover this. Ask DZ to allow any decision made there specifically related to worker management to supercede previous decisions.

-- Ravensfire

OH, heck no! I've already gone through months of pain and suffering :cry: trying to protect the Governor's rights from the Executive elite. And although I was able to peg the President with 3 PI's for abusing the system, the only legislation that came out of it was the complex system you mentioned. I'll let some of our next Governors worry about it.
 
I understand.

How about this - pass it as is. For the next few weeks, this won't be a major issue as we're a kinda small country!

Once the new term starts, we open a discussion on workers.

Acceptable?

-- Ravensfire
 
Sure, fine. Go for it.
 
I do know that another democracy game settled this dispute by creating an entire Department of Labor, sepcifically to control workers. I wouldn't go that far, but would advocate the creation of an office of Labor under the jurisdiction of either the President, Interior Ministry, or the Senate, an office specifically created to manage all the nation's workers.

But that's another thread.
 
Regarding worker actions.

There are four types of decisions relating to worker actions. I propose dividing it as follows:

  1. Worker production (build queues = mayors, via governors)
  2. National prioritization and regional allocation (internal affairs)
  3. Individual tile improvements (mayors, via governors)
  4. Specific jobs allocated to specific workers (president / DP)
    [/list=1]

    Exact wording is flexible depending on how this idea is received. :)
 
I was about to propose polling this with the stipulation that worker manangment be discussed immediately after the game starts.

Then I remembered Rik's comment above.

This ties in directly with the legislature thread, where the verbage for slider and cash rush votes is located at.

We need to decide where to put slider and budget control, and need to do that soon. So discuss please! :D

-- Ravensfire
 
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