CoL Discussion: Section D(Legislative Branch)

Province borders
Question 1: Do we want to have provinces of similar size?
Question 1a: If yes, how?

Yes, I believe we should return to the tried and true method of Provinces being standardized with the 126 tile program. This makes each Province contain approximately the same amount of cities. With this method, each Province will have 5 to 6 cities without any uneccessary crowding.

Question 2: Do we want to have provinces of similar production capactity?
Questions 2a: If yes, how?

All Provinces will have similar production capacity, ;) it's just the corruption levels will be different. :) The corruption levels in any given Province will change though, throughout the game with improvements and the placement of the Forbidden Palace. It's a Governor's responsibility to do the best with what he has available to him.

Provincial Naming
Question 1: Does this belong here, or in the naming rights section?

Of course it belongs here. This is a major perk for the Governors and should be founded in the CoL. Naming Rights of cities and terrain features are minor when compared with this. By placing this "right" in the CoL legislation, it will mark the separation and improve the status of Governors.
 
Question 1: Do we want to have provinces of similar size?
Question 1a: If yes, how?

Yes. I would like provinces to be approximately the same size in terms of number of cities. I think this can be accomplished by either limiting the number of tiles per province or by specifying the max number of cities per province. Either is fine with me.

Question 2: Do we want to have provinces of similar production capactity?
Questions 2a: If yes, how?

No. I think it would be too difficult to make sure all provinces are equal in this regard. Lets see how well some governors make lemonade ;)


Question 3: Do we want to have provinces with similar numbers of cities?
Question 3a: If yes, how? Does the final world size impact this decision?

Answered above.


Provincial Naming
Question 1: Does this belong here, or in the naming rights section?


I don't have a problem listing that "right" here, but would like to see all related laws together, that is I would like to see it in the Naming Rights CoS.
 
Question 1: Do we want to have provinces of similar size?
Question 1a: If yes, how?
Click to expand...
Yes. The should be tile based, but not absolute. Allow a small amount of variance so we have nice, even borders - 3-5 tiles max variance.

Question 2: Do we want to have provinces of similar production capactity?
Questions 2a: If yes, how?
Click to expand...
Yes, but not legislated. This should be up to the people as they plan the borders.

Question 3: Do we want to have provinces with similar numbers of cities?
Question 3a: If yes, how? Does the final world size impact this decision?
Click to expand...
Yes, but only roughly the same. Allow some variance. World size should affect the number of cities per province.

Provincial Naming
Question 1: Does this belong here, or in the naming rights section?
Click to expand...
Province naming belongs in the Naming Rights standard, as it was in DG2.

-- Ravensfire
 
RE: Provincial Naming

I obviously don't know all the history here, but as a newbie, if I were looking for where provinces were named I would tend to look in the logical place - somewhere that dealt with naming things - the naming rights section. We can still give that right to the 1st Governer though.
 
Cyc,

At this point, from the posts it's 3-1 to put naming in the CoS Naming section. I've got a few people coming over tonight (only 60 or so, with about 300+ jello shots to greet them!), so won't touch it until tomorrow afternoon.

At that time, I'm planning on going with the posted support. Sorry bud - looks like the CoS for provincial naming.

-- Ravensfire
 
Here's another thought. We've agreed that the Senate shoud handle cash rush requests, but what about requests for cash from other departments?

Governors aren't the only spenders. The Trade and Technology Ministry may request a some gold in order to complete a trade with a foreign nation. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs could want some gold to build an embassy, plant a spy, or run some espionage.

I simply suggest that the proposal be modified to allow the Senate to approve all budgetary requests, not just those for rushes.
 
I agree with Octavian X. The Senate should approve all spending. How could we have missed this great idea? Good catch :goodjob:
 
V1.1
Code: 
D.  The Legislative Branch 
  1.  The Senate (Governors) 
    A.  Structure
      1.  The Senate shall be comprised of all Provincial Governors
        A.  Should the number of provinces at the beginning of a term 
            be less than 3, a number of At-Large Governors shall be
            elected.
          1.  The number of At-Large Governors shall be that needed to 
            bring the total number of Governors to 3.
          2.  Should a new province be formed in mid-term, and an
              At-Large Governor exist, the At-Large Governor receiving 
              the most votes in support during the election shall become 
              the Provincial Governor of the new province.
      2.  The Senatorial President shall be the Vice-President
        A.  The Senatorial President shall be empowered to vote only when 
            a Senate vote is tied.
                     
    B.  A governor organizes the production of their province.
      1.  A governor organizes the build queues of the cities in thier province
      1.  A governor organizes the tile use in their province. 
      2.  If a tile is unused, it may be used by a city in a neighboring 
          province. 
      3.  A governor organizes tile development in their province. 
      4.  A governor may determine if population rushing is to be used
          in a city within their province.
          
    C.  The Senate shall meet prior to each turn chat and vote on the slider 
         settings for the next game play session in a Senate Slider poll.
      1. The setting with the most votes shall be the approved setting.
      2. The results of this vote shall be posted by the Senatorial President 
         in the game play session instruction thread.
      3. Should the Senate fail to determine the slider settings, the 
         Designated Player shall determine the slider settings.
          
    D. The Senate shall meet prior to each turn chat and vote on all cash 
       requests in a Cash Rush poll. 
      1. These requests should be made in the Senate thread, or another 
         designated thread indicated in the first post of the Senate thread.
      2. Each request should be considered individually unless the requestor 
         specified otherwise.
      3. Each request should be voted on seperately.
      4. Each request receiving a majority of votes in support shall be 
         considered approved.
      5. Should more requests be approved than funds available, rushes shall 
         be conducted in the order determined by the Designated Player.       
          
  2.  The Congress (Citizens) 
    A.  Comprised of all registered citizens of Fanatika. 

    B.  Provincial borders shall be determined and approved 
        by the Congress. 
      1.  A province should contain no more than approximately 126 tiles
      2.  Provincial borders shall be defined well ahead of expansion. 
      3.  When a defined province grows to 3 cities in the middle of an 
          term, and no At-Large Governor exists, a temporary governor 
          must be appointed by the President.
          A.  Any citizen may post a refusal poll for the appointment.
      4.  Any citizen may request a redistricting poll be held by creating 
          a new thread in the Citizen's sub-forum with the request.  Should
          more than 2 other citizens second the request, the Minister of
          Internal Affairs shall create a redistricting poll. 
        a.  This poll shall ask the question "Shall we redefine the boundaries
            of our Provinces?" and be open for 4 days.
        b.  If the poll meets a quorum level of 2/3 the census and 2/3 of the
            votes support the question, the Minister of the Interior shall
            immediately conduct a discussion on redefining the boundaries of 
            all Provinces.
        c.  Once all boundaries have been created, the entire plan shall be
            polled for acceptance.  There shall be no quorum level, and the
            poll shall be open for 4 days.  If 2/3 of the votes accept the 
            proposal, the new boundaries shall become active with the next
            election. 
    
  3.  Legislative Polls
    A.  Senate Polls
      1.  Slider Polls
        A.  Proposal shall list all options under consideration.
        B.  Poll shall be in open response format (normal post option, not 
            a poll).
        C.  The minimum duration for this poll is 24 hours.
      2.  Cash Rush Polls
        A.  Proporal shall list all cash rush requests.
        B.  Poll shall be in open response format (normal post option, not
            a poll).
        C.  The minimum duration for this poll is 24 hours.
    
X.  Amending the Code of Laws
  1. Polls to amend the Code of Laws shall be posted by the Judiciary
     upon succesful completion of a Judicial Review.
  2. Polls are to be in anonymous responder format (standard Forum 
     poll option). 
    A.  Proposal must be in Yes/No/Abstain format. 
    B.  Polls will stay open until: 
      1.  All votes have been cast, or; 
      2.  A quorum has responded and further votes cannot 
          affect the outcome of the vote, or; 
      3.  The posted poll closing time has been reached. 
        1.  Minimum duration to run a poll is 48 hours. 
    C.  The quorum for changes in the Code of Laws is 1/2 of the 
        census. 
    D.  A simple majority of support is required to adopt or alter a law.
Changelog
V1.1
* Moved D.1.B to D.2
* Clarified D.2.B.3 to ensure an At-Large Gov. gets a new province, if one exists
* Redid D.2.B - tile based, approx. 126 tiles per province
* Redid D.1.D to remove "rush", Senate now handles all "Cash requests"

-- Ravensfire
 
Zorven has posted a discussion on a proposal to amend the CoL on elections. This has raised a few questions in my mind concerning the Senate which I feel are more of a general nature and would be better raised here than in something concerning a specific election situation.

What happens to the Senate if there is no VP? Maybe one simply hasn’t yet been appointed or possibly even the presidential election is in dispute. Who leads it etc?

Who has the deciding vote in Senatorial votes if there is no VP – we have 3 governors including the 2 at-large ones at the moment, but if one isn’t around, abstains, or even if there are an even number of governors, then the vote could be tied – how is the deadlock broken? Or are the Slider Polls and Cash Request Polls (the Designated Player decides) the only ones? Zorven in his election amendment suggests the tie breaking vote should pass to the President then the Executive Council, but if we don’t have a VP because there is no President yet and the Exec Council also ties (possible as there are 4 of them) who next? Do we go down the CoC?

At what point is the Senate considered to be formed? As soon as elections are completed? If so just the governor elections, or all the elections?

Here’s hoping that someone who knows their way around these laws better than me will have the answers. At the moment, I just seem to be constantly confused.
 
Furiey,

You raise some good points. Let me address them as best I can.

What happens to the Senate if there is no VP? Maybe one simply hasn’t yet been appointed or possibly even the presidential election is in dispute. Who leads it etc?
Click to expand...

I suppose if there is no VP at the time of a vote that the issue does not pass and a new attempt will need to be made. However, I feel that the likelyhood of this happening is slim because the VP position is appointed and can be filled fairly quickly.

It appears that a VP for Term 1 has not been appointed yet because Rik Meleet is waiting for the Appointment section of the CoL to pass ratification (it is at the polls now). I assume he will appoint a VP as soon as that poll closes.

"Who leads it?" I assume you mean who leads the Senate in the absence of a VP. I don't think it is specified in code, but would assume the Senator with the most votes would fill in. Although I don't know that there are any duties or responsibilities assigned to the President of the Senate.

I suppose we could be cautious and add that the President shall vote in the absence of a VP.

Who has the deciding vote in Senatorial votes if there is no VP – we have 3 governors including the 2 at-large ones at the moment, but if one isn’t around, abstains, or even if there are an even number of governors, then the vote could be tied – how is the deadlock broken? Or are the Slider Polls and Cash Request Polls (the Designated Player decides) the only ones? Zorven in his election amendment suggests the tie breaking vote should pass to the President then the Executive Council, but if we don’t have a VP because there is no President yet and the Exec Council also ties (possible as there are 4 of them) who next? Do we go down the CoC?
Click to expand...

My answer to your first part ("who has the deciding vote if there is no VP") is the same as above. In regard to Sliders and Cash Rush ties, again the VP would settle the tie. If a VP is abscent, Sliders are determined by the Designated Player as specified in D.1.C.3. Cash rushes would fail to pass if there was a tie and no VP.

I don't understand how we can have no President in you next line of questioning.

At what point is the Senate considered to be formed? As soon as elections are completed? If so just the governor elections, or all the elections?
Click to expand...

All offices are effective on the 1st of the month following the election. For special elections the office holder takes power at the close of the poll.
 
Thanks Zorven - my mind has been going round and round in circles (as you could probably tell from the very confused post) trying to work out what would happen if each of the various offices was in dispute. The bit about no president was thinking what if the Presidential election was the one in dispute, but then I suppose not having a VP to have the tie breaking vote in the Senate would be the least of our troubles!
 
Originally posted by Cyc
I believe the term "productive city" was directly related to "equitable distribution". In other words DS wanted to more equally distribute productivity, by radiating our Provincial borderlines out from the Capital City in an effort to share the corruption reduction element of the Capital City, in each Province. Think pie chart. Each Provincial pie slice would point directly at the Capital City, thus getting as many corruption-free tiles as the next Province. This would allow "equal distribution of productive cities. DS is hoping to reduce the number of Provinces containing only "fishing villages" because of their distance from the Capital City. This is why he wishes that our Provincial Borders will "radiate" from the Capital City.

Is this correct DaveShack?
Click to expand...

Sorry this response took so long, we had out of town family here for a week, and I didn't see the question.

This is exactly what I plan to propose during term 1, geography permitting. Place the capital at one corner of a 126-tile block, and there should be 3 other high production provinces which result, pretty much automatically. The only likely snag is if we start on a coast.

It will be much harder to do this with the FP, but not completely impossible. We'll still automatically get at least 2 productive provinces from a FP, as long as it is not dead center in a province.
 
Regarding slider settings, can we assume that settings which change partway through the play session are valid?

Regarding slider settings and cash rush requests, a majority poll of the whole congress should carry higher precedence than a senate vote. Is that covered somewhere?

The cash rush provision should also include funds for unit improvements, embassies, spy missions, and other uses, other than trade.

The Trade & Technology ministry and the Senate must coordinate their activites -- in particular the effect of gpt trades on slider settings.

Slider settings should be in terms of % for lux, and in terms of +/- gpt for science. Example:
Set lux to 10%. Set science to the highest percentage which falls within the range +50gpt to -20gpt, except that if more than one rate results in the same number of turns of research, select the lowest rate. Check the setting two turns before research is completed and lower it to the lowest level which remains 2 turns. Likewise lower it when one turn remains. Return it to the specified gpt range the same turn the tech is researched, unless specified otherwise.
Click to expand...
 
DaveShack,

As far as the format, usage, etc of the slider settings, that should be left entirely up to the Senate to handle. So, to answer your question, could the slider setting change mid-session - of course. It all depends on what the Senate wants.

The wording on the most recent proposal was revised to state "Cash Requests", so it will cover all uses of our cash. The Senate is truly in charge of the purse strings now. Yes, that does mean coordination with other departments, but that's always been part of the fun, right?

You comment about the Congress overruling the Senate is true of any leader, any instruction. By our Constitution, our leaders are duty-bound to follow the Will of the People, or face a Citizen Complaint. The Citizen Rights' section of the Code of Laws has a nice method for citizens to police their elected officials.

So yes, the Congress can overrule the Senate, just as they can any other instruction from any other leader.

-- Ravensfire
 
Provincial Naming
Question 1: Does this belong here, or in the naming rights section?
Click to expand...

since naming the provinces is a bigger issue than naming cities, i think that they should be discussed and polled. that would give citizen groups like the The French Culture Society and other citizens who care a lot about naming an oppurtunity to make their voice heard.


one more thing: what about provincial deputies? is the elected govenor able to appoint its own deputies or are we going to use the DG3 system where the runner-up in the election is considered elected the deputy?
 
Originally posted by Furiey
I’ve come to realise that the Senatorial President (with the tie breaking vote) is the Vice President. This puts a non-elected (ie: appointed) position with the tie breaking vote over a group of elected officials. Is this what is really wanted?
Click to expand...

Yes, it was.

The Senate has significant responsibilities now, ones that may involve several important votes each game session - the budget and the slider. As such, these need to be set. There will be times that the Senate will be tied over competing proposals. While taken from the US Senate, it also makes a great deal of sense for the VP to serve as the President of the Senate.

In the absence of the President, the VP is first on the Chain of Command. Should the Presidency be declared vacant, the VP will take over that position. By having the VP involved with the Senate on these matters, they will become familiar with the issues and demands of each Province in a manner they haven't before. This will only help them in the future.

Finally, and the simple explanation, if there is a tie, it needs to be broken someone. This was the mechanism chosen.

-- Ravensfire
 
The poll for amending the CoL has been posted here

-- Ravensfire
 
The poll for Section D has been posted here.

-- Ravensfire
 
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