Colony bug or feature?

Desert-Fox

King
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Jun 4, 2005
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Estonia, Laagri
I play as celtic leader Brennus, I decided to create a colony and the new leader is now Boudica, so now there is two celtic empires in my game. Is it bug or not? I guessed that the new nation will be created.

If it is feature then it is annoying because one of my city had 100% celts but still was asked to join with my vassal celtic empire.
 

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Nope. It's a feature. It's only weird though when you have a colony vassal with a civ that only has one leader.
 
Nope. It's a feature. It's only weird though when you have a colony vassal with a civ that only has one leader.

This 'feature' has some very unfortunate effects however. There are many places in the game where one civ refers to another by name only...not by leader.

So...in my most recent game there were two Americas.

When Civ A asks me to go to stop trading with the Americans - Did they mean Roosevelt (my deadly enemy since the start of the game) or Lincoln (a recent colony of my friends the English)?

When Civ B asked me to go to war with the Russians- Did they mean Catherine (my very powerful but friendly neighbour) or Stalin (who I would be happy to assist in wiping out)? Russian roulette anyone?

I think the problem (I would call it a bug because it significantly affects gameplay) with this is clear.

The worst situations are modal dialogs where I can't even refer to the advisors to make an educated guess as to which of the possible Civs might be meant. AP and UN votes are good (bad) examples of this.
 
This is extremely annoying and I've had this crop up many times so far where someone asks me to go to war with nation X, and I have no idea if its the one I like, or the one I don't like.
 
This 'feature' has some very unfortunate effects however. There are many places in the game where one civ refers to another by name only...not by leader.

So...in my most recent game there were two Americas.

When Civ A asks me to go to stop trading with the Americans - Did they mean Roosevelt (my deadly enemy since the start of the game) or Lincoln (a recent colony of my friends the English)?

When Civ B asked me to go to war with the Russians- Did they mean Catherine (my very powerful but friendly neighbour) or Stalin (who I would be happy to assist in wiping out)? Russian roulette anyone?

I think the problem (I would call it a bug because it significantly affects gameplay) with this is clear.

The worst situations are modal dialogs where I can't even refer to the advisors to make an educated guess as to which of the possible Civs might be meant. AP and UN votes are good (bad) examples of this.

These are good arguments for why its a problem. Especially when Charlemagne of the HRE can split-off.... Charlemagne of the HRE. That would be even more confusing!
 
These are good arguments for why its a problem. Especially when Charlemagne of the HRE can split-off.... Charlemagne of the HRE. That would be even more confusing!

Can this happen? I thought it was limited to spinning off different leaders of the same civ (i.e., Napoleon spawns Louis and de Gaulle, but wouldn't spawn another Napoleon.)

I think that there should be different default names for the civs -- even something stupid like "New Aztec", "New France", and (especially) giving the player the option to name his own spin-off civs when the colony is granted independence.
 
SUGGESTION for serious consideration by Firaxis:


Tying a sort of historical name to the new colony might be helpful, where a name can logically be created. (E.g., France --> Quebec, Spain --> Mexico, England --> Australia, China --> Vietnam, Holy Roman Empire --> Poland (HA HA!), America --> Philippines, Russia --> Finland, Mongolia --> Manchuria, etc.)

I'm sure the usual crowd would complain about whatever names are generated (e.g., how dare you say Mexico came from Spain, when it was really Aztec,) but in reality it doesn't matter what the default 'new' names are so long as they exist. And if someone is really upset, I'm sure a dozen mods would be generated with "REAL" lists.

Heck, give me a day or two, and I could finally put that History degree to work and come up with a somewhat reasonable list for all the civs.
 
I started a colony on a terra map with Rome (Augustus Ceasar) and ended up having the Byzantine Empire show up. I thought it was pretty interesting having the true western and eastern Roman Empires.
 
SUGGESTION for serious consideration by Firaxis:


Tying a sort of historical name to the new colony might be helpful, where a name can logically be created. (E.g., France --> Quebec, Spain --> Mexico, England --> Australia, China --> Vietnam, Holy Roman Empire --> Poland (HA HA!), America --> Philippines, Russia --> Finland, Mongolia --> Manchuria, etc.)

I'm sure the usual crowd would complain about whatever names are generated (e.g., how dare you say Mexico came from Spain, when it was really Aztec,) but in reality it doesn't matter what the default 'new' names are so long as they exist. And if someone is really upset, I'm sure a dozen mods would be generated with "REAL" lists.

Heck, give me a day or two, and I could finally put that History degree to work and come up with a somewhat reasonable list for all the civs.

That would be nice or even better you can name yourself the colonies.
 
That would be nice or even better you can name yourself the colonies.

I would love this! It could pop up the same "change your details" screen, but applying to your new colony.

However, this is an enhancement request and doesn't apply to the original bug. It wouldn't help with there being two AI Greeces, for example, as you wouldn't have a chance to change it.

And it is a bug. Everything in a game is a feature until it causes significant problems, at which time it becomes a bug.

On another point... I changed my CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml file, so that every Civ now has a preferred Civ choice for their first colony. Also I removed quite a few of the preferences for making America. If anyone wants it, let me know. :)
 
I would love this! It could pop up the same "change your details" screen, but applying to your new colony.

However, this is an enhancement request and doesn't apply to the original bug. It wouldn't help with there being two AI Greeces, for example, as you wouldn't have a chance to change it.

And it is a bug. Everything in a game is a feature until it causes significant problems, at which time it becomes a bug.

On another point... I changed my CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml file, so that every Civ now has a preferred Civ choice for their first colony. Also I removed quite a few of the preferences for making America. If anyone wants it, let me know.

Right. Which is why a list of at least two or three "default" colony names for each civ in addition to the colony re-name option would be the best solution.

Here's a partial list off the top of my head. I tried to come up with at least three names for each civ, and I cheated with "New [Civ Name]" where my knowledge was insufficient for even a bad guess. Note that some of the ones I did come up with do not quite meet the historical purity test. (Technically, Philippines should certainly be Spanish, not American colony; Mexico is arguably Aztec, not Spanish; I cheated by claiming Cyprus to be a colony of both Greece and Turkey; using crusader states as Byzantine "colonies", using internal regions for some nations that did not have overseas settlements, etc.) Where possible, I tried to use non-contiguous examples (hence inclusion of Bahrain as an Arab colony….)

My idea here is that, with this modification, it will not be necessary to assign any particular civ as being the "derivative" civ. With the new name, any leader can fill in the gap, so to speak, so long as leaders themselves are not duplicative.

Constructive feedback welcomed. If someone could come up with better colony names (especially) for Byzantium, Persia, and Sumer.



America --> Philippines, Puerto Rico, Panama, Alaska, Hawai'i, Guam
Arabia --> Al-Andalus, Zanzibar, Somalia, Bahrain,
Aztec --> Aztlan, Nahua, New Aztec
Babylon --> Chaldea, New Babylon
Byzantine --> Antioch, Tripoli, Edessa
Carthage --> Libya, Hispania, Sardinia
Celts --> Eire, Scotland, Wales, Brittany, Cornwall.
China --> Taiwan, Hainan, Singapore.
Egypt --> Nubia, Phoenicia, New Egypt
England --> Ulster, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Rhodesia
Ethiopia --> Eritrea, Tigre, Ogaden
France --> Quebec, Algeria, Cochin China, Senegal, Martinique
Germany --> Austria, Lithuania, Tanganyika
Greece --> Crete, Rhodes, Macedonia, Kypros
Holy Roman Empire --> Prussia, Saxony, Poland
Inca --> Chinchay Suyu, Anti Suyu, Kunti Suyu, Qulla Suyu
India --> Ceylon, Maldives, Andaman
Japan-->Okinawa, New Japan
Khmer --> Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, New Khmer
Korea --> Goguryeo, Cheju-do, New Korea
Mali --> Berber, Ghana, Sokoto, Tuareg
Maya --> Carib, New Maya
Mongolia --> Kipchak Khanate, Ilkhanate, Chaghadai Khanate, Manchuria
Native America --> Cherokee, Iroquois, Sioux, Navajo
Netherlands --> East Indies, Boers, New Netherlands, Curacao, Formosa, Suriname
Ottoman Empire --> Iraq, Syria, Libya, Kibris, Turkiye
Persia--> Media,Bactria, Parthia, Balochistan.
Portugal --> Brazil, Angola, Mozambique, Guinea, Timor, Goa.
Rome--> Gaul, Dalmatia, Dacia, Lusitania, Britannia.
Russia --> Ukraine, Siberia, Kazakhstan, Finland, Tannu Tuva.
Spain --> Mexico, Argentina, Chile, New Granada, Peru, Rio de Oro.
Sumer--> New Sumer
Vikings --> Iceland, Greenland, Vinland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway
Zululand --> Zimbabwe, Zambia, New Zululand
 
Or just put NEW in before the colonies names
eg
New England and New New England etc
 
Actually, they should Just take a civ from the existing list of ones NOT in the game... there are 34 Civs plenty for splitting off to work

Giv each civ a list of related civs, and it picks the first from the list that is NOT in the game now, and if it reaches the end of the list, Randomly picks a civ that is NOT in the game now.

(so the Americans could found the colony of England if the English were not in the game, etc.)
 
I think the idea to use real-former colonies makes a lot of sense. The only problem I foresee is the leaderhead for those.



Netherlands --> East Indies, Boers, New Netherlands, Curacao, Formosa, Suriname
Boers is not a colony. "Boer" is the dutch word for "farmer".

I suggest the following as best suited for the Netherlands since most is known about these colonies:
- East Indies
- Cape of Good Hope
- Western New Guinea
- Aruba, Bonaire, Curaçao (the Dutch Antilles)
- Suriname


A larger list of former colonies, most of which I do not suggest:
- Ceylon, India, Malaka, Mauritius, Tobago, Cape Province, New-Amsterdam, Acadia (to UK)
- Formosa (to China)
- Corandèl (abandoned)
- Mozambique (to Portugal)
- Réunion (to France)
- Suriname (1621-1975) -> independant
- Dutch Indies (1596-1949) -> independant (Indonesia)
- Western New-Guinea (to Indonesia)
- Aruba, Bonaire, Curaçao (the Dutch Antilles) -> still a municipal/township (bad name?)

Some links, probably not too useful except for those interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_Indies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_(terminology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands
 
I think the idea to use real-former colonies makes a lot of sense. The only problem I foresee is the leaderhead for those.

I didn't see that as being a problem. No new leaders would be needed. So you might have Montezuma of the Australians.

Boers is not a colony. "Boer" is the dutch word for "farmer".

It is also, however, a civilization name. The Boers are definitely a deriviative civilization of the Dutch, hence the inclusion.

As for Ceylon, I daresay the people of the Indian Subcontinent got there first...which reminds me: is there a more proper name for that island in its capacity as a colony of the Indians? I am hesitant to use "Sri Lanka" as it is a modern name, and Ceylon seems more like a European designation.....
 
IBoers is not a colony. "Boer" is the dutch word for "farmer".

The Boer republics were dutch colonies in Southern Africa. Ever heard of the Boer wars?
Yes, we're taught at a very early age.
The Boer wars was a war of local farmers vs the current local (then English) government. They supported their own government which was called "de boerenrepubliek" which actually translates to English as the Farmer's Republic (boer means farmer). But since it was not translated correctly in English the people just mistake it for Boer Republic as its actual name (which it's not). Boer was not the actual name of the republic or the country. If you do want to give them a name, then it should be "Voortrekkers".

So Boers wasn't a colony, it was just what we call farmers, and the actual place is Cape Province or the area around Cape of Good Hope (Kaap de Goede Hoop). Nowadays the name Boer is probably sunk in so deep that no foreigner knows what it means because it's just borrowed from the original language without translation. Another one of those words is Apartheid, which is also borrowed and not translated (properly).
 
The new Colony civ should be
1. a standard Civ not currently present
2. From a list for each Parent civ, or a randomly selected civ if all civs in the list are present

The lists would include civs closely related to the civ (in that they either spawned it or were spawned by it, or were just closely intertwined)... America showing up for anyone with a colony in the Americas

America --> England, Germany, Netherlands, French, Native American
Arabia --> Egypt, Spain, Babylon, Carthage, Ottoman, Ethiopia
Aztec --> Maya, Native American, Inca
Babylon --> Sumer, Arabs, Persia
Byzantine --> Rome, Greece
Carthage --> Arabs, Egypt
Celts --> English, French, Spain
China --> Mongols, Koreans, Japanese, Khmer
Egypt --> Arabs, Carthaginians
England --> Americans, Vikings, Celts, Germans, French, Rome
Ethiopia --> Egypt, Mali, Zulu, Arabs
France --> Americans, HRE, Celts, English, Rome
Germany --> Americans, HRE, English
Greece --> Byzantines, Rome
Holy Roman Empire --> Germany, France, Netherlands, Rome
Inca --> Maya, Aztec
India --> Khmer, Persia
Japan--> Korea, China
Khmer --> India, China
Korea --> China, Japan, Mongol
Mali --> Ethiopia, Zulu, Egypt
Maya --> Aztec, Inca, Native American
Mongolia --> China, Russia, Korea, Ottoman
Native America --> America, Aztec, Maya
Netherlands --> America, HRE, Rome
Ottoman Empire --> Arab, Mongol
Persia--> India, Babylon, Arabs
Portugal --> America, Spain, Rome
Rome--> Byzantines, HRE, France, Spain, England, Portugal, Greece
Russia --> America, Vikings, Mongols
Spain --> America, Arabs, Celts, Rome
Sumer--> Babylon, Arab, Egypt
Vikings --> Russia, England
Zululand --> Mali, Ethiopia
 
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