Communism VS Capitalism

Originally posted by Xiahou-Dun:
Not to get off the topic, but it was posted and I was wondering about these same opportunities. The opportunties chosen for you right. I don't know anyone who wants the opportunty to pick up the trash when they have the opportunty to be a cook, fisherman, farmer, ect ect.... Would you be all happy picking up the trash? Someone has to. Your way someone will be picked to do it. My way someone will be hired to do it.

Everyone is payed to do a job. EVEN in Communism. There are just no incentives. (The only reason to be payed is if there are external "Capitialist" countries. A communist country still must trade to gain goods, etc... But if EVERYONE was communist then there would be no need for money.) And if the government deamed me to be the best at picking up trash, then goddamn it I'm going to be the best damn trash collector the country has ever seen!!!

Is there a difference? Work hard and get a treat(reward) I believe they are one in the same.

EXCATLY!!! You (or someone else) said there was NO INCENTIVE in Communism. You have just said that there was. So
tongue.gif

But the Communism incentive has a more public feel, everyone wins when you do well. Not just the individual.

I feel that's a little victory for all Communists!!!

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Originally posted by CornMaster:
Everyone is payed to do a job. EVEN in Communism. There are just no incentives. (The only reason to be payed is if there are external "Capitialist" countries. A communist country still must trade to gain goods, etc... But if EVERYONE was communist then there would be no need for money.) And if the government deamed me to be the best at picking up trash, then goddamn it I'm going to be the best damn trash collector the country has ever seen!!!

Did I say Communism didn't pay? No I said your job would be chosen for you. I personally don't want to depend on any government to pick me a job.


And in a perfect 'Communism' working system you wouldn't need to trade. You would made your own stuff and not have to depend on other countries.

Not enough food, put more people in the fields.

Right? It's all about the people.

Originally posted by CornMaster:
EXCATLY!!! You (or someone else) said there was NO INCENTIVE in Communism. You have just said that there was. So <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/tongue.gif" border=0>
But the Communism incentive has a more public feel, everyone wins when you do well. Not just the individual.

I feel that's a little victory for all Communists!!!


Do you mine showing me where I stated this at? I believe I stated that humans will regress.


Now if you want to use my words out of content.


You stated Communism gives rewards and stated Capitialist give you a treat.

I asked was there a difference.


Right?

But in your statement I quoted, (- the cuss word) you sure made it sound like there was one. And I asked was there a difference.

As for incentive to work for a reward or treat (How ever you want to put it) I guess it would depend on what said reward or treat was.

If my reward or treat was to know I helped my people regress, I will gladly do without.

[This message has been edited by Xiahou-Dun (edited July 11, 2001).]
 
Originally posted by Xiahou-Dun:
Do you mine showing me where I stated this at?

That's why I put (or someone else) there. Because I couldn't remember if it was you or someone else, that said that. But the second "You" was refering to you because you said a reward and a treat (Which I meant to mean the same thing) were the same. I just used different words.

If my reward or treat was to know I helped my people regress, I will gladly do without.

I don't see how helping your country and your people will cause human kind to regress!!!

Please explain that.

And I apoligize if you thought I was swearing. I mean no disrespect, or insults.

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Originally posted by CornMaster:
I don't see how helping your country and your people will cause human kind to regress!!!

Please explain that.

And I apoligize if you thought I was swearing. I mean no disrespect, or insults.


I didn't think you where swearing at me.
smile.gif
I just try to refrain from using them (Cuss words). That's why I cut it out of your post/quote.


To the question.

This just my opinion, I believe without a incentive to better one's self mankind will regress. It would be nice if people thought of their fellow human beings as an incentive enough, but I don't believe humans can.

You said you would do your best at the job given you. And I believe you would, but say your buddy next to you see's you doing such a fine job and starts to slack, thinking you will pull his slack. Why would he do this? He is human.
 
Captialism all the way.
If you work more than others why get paid the same as them? Different salaries are needed. the world shouldn't work with everyone being paid the same for uneven work.

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both systems suck :_)

that's just the nature of humanity



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Perhaps it's time for a nice %STRING0
 
Well essentially it boils down to who got it right - Adam Smith or Karl Marx. I think Smith was more the realist and Marx more of the idealist.

I think as long as you have a class structure in society, the capitalist model (however exploitive) is the one that will be in place. If you can somehow eliminate class (ironically, even the 'communist' governments simply replaced the bourgeosie/nobility with a powerful and relatively wealthy beaurocrat class), then communism could work. I just don't see this happening.

Capitalism may have its evils, but its the end result of how humans have developed over time. Wealth and power have always been unequally distributed in recorded history, what would make that stop now?
 
<u>Proposal</u> <FONT size="1">(similar to the comment Magnus made earlier about economies becoming more like each other)</FONT s>:
Balance in everything. Everyone does NOT get the exact same thing (pay, house, car, whatever), but everyone gets the minimum pay takes to live, without having to do anything. Beyond that, if you want more, you work for it. Those who do better or work harder, get more. Want more than minimum (but livable) housing given to you by default? Get a job and work hard at it. Want a car or boat? (the public transportation system will get you anywhere, so you don't get a car by default) Same answer. That's the incentive. Wanna slack? Fine, you'll live, but at some point you'll be bored doing nothing and tired of seeing others who have more just by trying a little and you'll get off your a$$. Everyone has something they love to do that can also provide for the community. People slack when they wish they were doing something else. What you don't get is the poor, teh homelessness, the suffering because there are no jobs or any perceived need to steal to order to live.

Also, you get to choose what you LOVE to do, though this may depend some on what's needed any given time. But you don't have people who work and hate their jobs because they HAVE to do it to live. What does that do to customer service and overall happiness? What does that do to domestic violence when people love their jobs and don't feel pressured by life to choose or keep a bad one? What does that do to the well-paid slacking that does on today when one is naturally motivated by something they love? (You don't need managers to police for bad workers when people do what they love.) What does that do to crime when everyone always has enough? These are things we currently pay for INDIRECTLY today but we don't account for it. Perhaps not always in money, but sometimes we pay in risk. Looking at the big picture, contributing more to a system that takes care of everyone may pay off better. And is "paying off better" having more money (a concept we made up), or having everything you want and not needing this extra "stuff" (money) lying around for no reason? We look at high taxation, but do we factor in everything? Would you pay more for an overall safer, better life? I would. I would pay more to take minimum care of my slacking neighbor who would otherwise take a job at the Post Office because he had to and then hate it and eventually gun down all his coworkers and I end up paying for funeral costs, lack of productivity at the Post Office, counselling for the community, a public defender and more in prison costs anyway. Y'know?

Capitalism is a system that is only doing well when it is growing. And is growth unlimited? And, by default, it is bad when things decline (or lately, when they don't grow fast enough). I may be speaking out of turn, but I believe a system that does not depend on constant growth would not succumb to inflation. So necessities in a Communist economy would cost the same consistently over time and never be over-priced. And that's less that "the people" have to contribute to maintain it.

I do agree that human nature negatively (and positively) impacts all systems. But that's doesn't mean we shouldn't try a system where you work/do better if you want, but don't have to if you want to (or can't). Why have a system where people are allowed to accumulate unlimited amounts of limited resources, leaving not enough or nothing left for those who didn't/couldn't/didn't know how to act as quickly or in the "right" way? It's kinda like letting a group of hungry children loose at a buffet table where whoever gets the most on their plates gets to keep it. And those who didn't get any/enough get to starve ... awwww, too bad for them, eh? "Survival of the fittest" instead of "love thy neighbor". I believe the 2nd is more evolved than the 1st. I say, give everyone a plate to start out with and let those who are still hungry visit the buffet for whatever is left again and again if they so choose.

And as for looking at what has worked in the past, I think looking at and depending on the past is overrated. If we only ever look at the past for what can be created, nothing new would ever happen. What if someone had pointed out to the U.S. Founding Fathers that no one in the history of the world had ever successfully self-governed before (which is true, and very much like what many of you have said about forms of Communism) and therefore it would never work? And then what if they believed him and took his word for it (they wouldn't believe a woman in those days) that it wasn't possible and was not worth trying? Then where would America be? I'll tell ya: God Save the Queen.

Communism may be ideal, but so was America. Neither has been fully realized successfully (unless you call our system "successful" despite the high crime and homeless in the street, etc. etc. etc.).

Spiff
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Spiff-
Your idea looks good on paper, but there is one major flaw.

Most people work because they have to, and most of them do not have any skills that would qualify them for interesting, exciting, or 'fun' jobs. These people do not like working, they do it because they have to to survive, because that is how our economy works.

If your system came into being tomorrow, everyone would starve or die in riots as basic human services broke down when no-one showed up at the farm to milk the cows, feed the animals etc..., and no truckers shipped what little there was to market, and no grocers showed up to shelve and bag, and no one showed up at the power plant to keep the refrigerators running, etc...

There are some jobs out there that no sane individual, and not enough loonies, would do without an incentive. They are, nonetheless, jobs that need doing. If we did have robots capable of performing these sh1t-jobs for us, then your system might work, but we would then suffer a population explosion that would rapidly eradicate all resources and arable land, and we'd either end up suffocating on our own filth, or eating Soylent Green in ZPGland(two 60s era movies that describe future societies).

Frankly, the world you envision will not exist until we can attain a nanotech civilization, where resources become limitless. I don't mean to be inflammatory or mean-spirited, but mankind will never be able to govern itself in a fair and egalitarian manner.

I happen to have religious beliefs that make this debate nothing but an exercise in philosophy, but most do not share them, so I won't burden anyone unless I am asked to. Brad doesn't count, since he shares them as well. (Sorry Brad, but fair's fair.)
 
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