Competing for science on Immortal

[Feanor_]

I thought I'd cracked Immortal, but on my current game one of the AIs completely snowballed on science. In like 1150 / Turn 176, Kongo was in the Industrial era; by 1635 / Turn 238 they were in the Information Era and generating 552 science to my 210.

I think my main mistake was not expanding my civ further and being a bit late getting Campuses online but I'm not sure I'd ever have any hope of competing with that no matter how I played.

Anyone got any thoughts?

I've seen war suggested as the solution on other threads but by the time their science lead became apparent I was far too far behind to solve the problem militarily: they declared a suprise war on me when my carefully planned cities started to close the gap and it was all I could do to hold them off to a draw and a peace treaty. I'm now heading for a Religion or possibly Diplomatic victory.

 

[Buktu]

210 science is way to few for t238 when aiming for a SV. That said it is hard to tell more only from the two screens you posted. One thing is gold though. You have nearly 7,5k gold unspend. Spend it! You can buy all the buildings in your campusses once they are build, you can even buy settler and builder to settle new cities and chop campusses there.
Otherwise how many cities do you have in total? Are they at 10 pop and have a campus 3 adjacency? Do you use all the cards to boost your science? Do you have envoys at every science city state? You can nearly always beline universities to get a nice boost once you unlock them (trade to sell stuff to the AI and buy them in cities with few production to save time). Also keep an eye out for great scientists. There are some who boost your buildings. With rationalism you can make those even more efficient since you will boost all your buildings (given you have 10 pops and 3 adjacency). You can also run projects to get more scientist points and also turn a bunch of production into science.

You can also start a thread where you post screens of your game every turn to get some tips. Its alot of work but tips will be more detailed for your personal play.

 

[Feanor_]

Thanks. To be honest I took those screenshots a day or twoago and just didn't get round to posting here - I'd already done most of the things you suggest and this is where I'm at now, 34 turns later. (I was saving the gold cause I was builing Big Ben but the AI beat me to it.)

I was never really going for a Science Victory - that been my default victory condition for Civ since Civ II and I'm kind of bored with it so have been trying others. This'll be the first time I'll have got a Religion victory though (unless I get Diplomatic first) as it always seemed a bit too easy. So I was never fussed about falling a bit behind on science - but I've never fallen so far behind, and Kongo's lead was huge. I've since allied myself with them because otherwise I'm sure they'd just walk their Giant Death Robots over me (which seems a touch silly in 1802).

I tend only to build Campuses where the adjacency makes it worthwhile but I think I'm going to have to adjust that strategy.

I guess my reason for posting here is how to bolster science earlier without compromising on long term production and other aspects - or if it's even possible to compete on science peacefully when one of the AIs pulls away from everyone to that extent. As mentioned, I think my main mistake is not having enough cities - to answer your question, I have 9. I lost one to loyalty early on in a Classical Era dark age to Kongo which would have given me a +3 Campus; I thought I'd be able to win it back but then they pulled away technologically. (I'd have recaptured it while it was independent but I also was getting overrun by Barbs, I didn't have the artillery needed and the city's nearly ringed by Mountains and a river so I was a couple of turns too late. The Dark Age wasn't entirely unintentional either because I wanted a Heroic Age in the Medieval Era, which I got.)

I realise I've got more gold than ever but I honestly can't spent it on anything worthwhile at the moment, and I'm making 350/turn.

Thanks too for the offer of turn by turn tuition, think it won't be necessary but I really appreciate it

 

[Archon_Wing]

You need to post a picture of your actual empires and cities. The HUD ribbon does nothing on its own but tell us you are behind the other civs.

Also turn 200+ is too late to be asking for help. Start a new game and try asking in ancient/classical. Let people play the t1 save.

In general, low science is caused by underexpansion, and not pritorizing campuses. You may also be not developing your infrastructure fast enough (not emphasizing production or chopping) or waiting too long for an optimal placement.

Also in the early game, you don't need to get that much science but focus on Eurekas and expanding. And make sure your culture isn't too low to get new cards and governors. You may also be taking too long to build the Government Plaza.

 

[Feanor_]

Thanks. That confirms what I thought about my fundamental strategy errors, in particular around waiting too long for optimal placement especially when it comes to the government plaza. I do often tend to be over-cautious. I think where I've also been struggling is getting the timing right when it comes to shifting from expansion to infrastructure.

No need at the moment for specific advice on individual game scenarios - there are too many. This general advice is super helpful and I can apply it more broadly to various early game situations

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

I'd say 9 cities is fine actually, usually 8 is my minimum. As for general tips, make sure you get the envoys into scientific CS (not necessarily suzerain, unless you get Kilwa Kisiwani, which you 100% should), and get those buildings up stat. How you get them up is up to you, but purchasing with gold/faith is always great. Also spam those commercial hubs, get an alliance going and have a scientific alliance with an AI (preferable with wisselbanken slotted) and send Then every trase route. Then ofc work om getting getting 3 base adjacency campuses and enough food/housing to hit 10 pop in each city for those Rationalism yields (super easy as Korea for instance)

In general, use the first part of the game to massively settle (or take neighbouring cities in some cases). It's ok to be behind until like the medieval/renaissance Era in order to settle and get stuff up, but at that point you Will normally start to catch up.

Dont wait for optimal settling spots as you pointed out. You only need 10 pop and you wont be able to work all those "optimal" locations anyway (and trade routes can substitute for farm space if needed).

About the govt. plaza, it can be hard to determine when to get it.
If you see that there is a lot of settling space available (you are likely to settle well above 8 cities if you hurry up), I'd get it as my first or second district in my capital in order to chop out the Ancestral Hall asap, that together with the settler card will let you get your core cities up really fast.
If there is not much space (but enough for a minimum of, say, 8 cities), you can delay it somewhat and just rely on settling early with the settler card available.
As always, settle near mountain ranges, geothermal fissures and reefs so that you can (if possible) secure at least a +3 adjacency campus.
(If I am going science myself and spawn on flatland, I will usually look for the nearest mountain ranges and try to settle them, or take out my nearest neighbour who has those features).

I'd prioritize campuses first is any new cities, perhaps the occasional commercial hub if you are short on cash.
Even if you don't build them immediately, plop them down since that locks their cost to the cheapest price available in terms of production.
Industrial zones as the third district in cities (usually after comm hubs), since you eventually need that production for your late game (either for your space port cities, or for churning out strong project and lots of builders to rush the space projects).
You can do whatever you want with the remaining districts, but campus - comm hub - industrial zones are key.

If you have either a strong faith or gold economy, consider getting 4 promotions into Moksha or Reyna, since that will allow you to insta-buy campuses for faith/gold, which really helps you pick up speed.
Even better, you can use them to insta-finish the spaceport as well.

Mausoleum at Halicarnassos and Kilwa Kisiwani are imo the key wonders you really want to secure.
Mausoleum for instance will let you get two charges on Sergei Korolev (Atomic Era GE), which will let you instantly finish both the Earth Satellite and Moon Landing projects once you built your first space port (both projects are more or less available once you tech space ports, and definitely available by the time you built/bought them).
Kilwa is good as long as there is either a scientific or production CS available in the game.
More than two of each (where you suzerain them) and the wonder is absolutely godly.

 

[Buktu]

In coastal cities you can swap out the commercial hub with a harbor. It also provides the trade route and some gold but it also adds production (with the shipyard) on top. With a reef you can oftentimes get a nice triangle (city center, harbor, campus) for the +3 adjacency.

I would add pyramids to the wonder list if possible. Since you will have lots of cities you will have lots of chops, an extra charge on every builder makes them more efficient! Also builder speed ups on district projects are based on the amount of charges the builder has left.
If you can find a nice spot for it the colosseum is also nice to have (but not a must) since it will provide you with nice additional culture to get through the civic tree faster. Colosseum and EC will also provide a nice location for a TS for even more culture on top (you want a few of them anyway since you might have to get rid of antiquary sites on some tiles).
Amundsen Scott is also great, but it comes very late and is situational (must be build on snow). If you manage to get it, it is a huge boost though.

Kilwa is good even with commercial and culture city states. The later provide the cards and governments faster and you can use all the extra gold to buy buildings in cities which lack production. You want as much suzerain titles as you can get anyway to get maximum value from the International Space Agency card (5% science for every suzerain title you have).

 

[Tarry]

The more you do early on the stronger you will be later on. That's always true.
For science you need to prioritise lots of cities with Campus' that all have adjacency bonus'. Mountains, reefs, geothermals, some wonders, clustering your cities 4-5 hexes apart to get more adjacencies. As soon as you plant that science city down, start the campus to lock it's cost in, and mark it with a pin to remember to get other adjacency bonus'.

What to do if you don't have an adjacency bonus? build a campus anyway, with a library and university it still makes science and, just as importantly Great Scientist Points.
Passive science from just numbers of people in your empire matter. Getting a bigger empire is more people and more science.

Religion supports science, bigtime. It's worth sacrificing a good science site to get a religion, possibly even your first site in your capitol. Arguably the AI's are so far ahead in science early on that getting a religion to help your science later on is a very good thing. There are a bunch of faith things that let you get more science, and if you have a bunch of faith you can buy the key great people (below). One Apostle sacrificed for Inquisition and a few inquisitors makes your home religion pretty safe for a long time. A strong religion is the engine that gives you strong science.

There are 3 great people you should target if at all possible. Hypatia, Newton and Einstein, spend your faith (see religion comments above) or cash to get those, the boost from them lasts for the rest of the game, run science projects if they popup. (Hildegard is nice as well).

You don't need to suze science states to get the major benefits in your buildings. 3 envoys is the key.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Religion supports science, bigtime. It's worth sacrificing a good science site to get a religion, possibly even your first site in your capitol. Arguably the AI's are so far ahead in science early on that getting a religion to help your science later on is a very good thing. There are a bunch of faith things that let you get more science, and if you have a bunch of faith you can buy the key great people (below). One Apostle sacrificed for Inquisition and a few inquisitors makes your home religion pretty safe for a long time. A strong religion is the engine that gives you strong science.

There are 3 great people you should target if at all possible. Hypatia, Newton and Einstein, spend your faith (see religion comments above) or cash to get those, the boost from them lasts for the rest of the game, run science projects if they popup. (Hildegard is nice as well).

You don't need to suze science states to get the major benefits in your buildings. 3 envoys is the key.

Most of your post is spot on, but I take issue with Hypatia (and maybe Newton).
Yes they are great, but getting those on Immortal can be very difficult, especially Hypatia.
Rushing GPP to get Hypatia early will usually come at a very heavy price, as you need to focus on campuses with buildings asap and after that most likely run research projects, at a time where you want to expand with more cities.
You might be able to buy her for faith, but that is a very big if since the AI more often than not will snag her right away as you barely got your first couple of campuses online.
Remember, this guy plays Immortal, and Hypatia on Immortal is very hard to secure consistently.

As for religion, that heavily depends on the map, and as the OP said, he wanted general advice and not circumstantial strategies (which also applies to Hypatia/Newton above).
As a general strategy, I'd say that this is bad advice.
I believe that getting a religion when going science is a lot of "ifs and buts", and not something one should do blindly as a strategy.
I finished up a science game with Gaul on Deity yesterday, and I certainly didn't need a religion for it (ended with 1300 science per turn, about turn 300 win on Epic speed).
Speaking of religion, it's even more circumstantial since if you do get one, only Work Ethic and Jesuit Education are somewhat synergistic with science, and in the case of Work Ethic, getting full benefit from it (by getting high adjacency holy sites) both delays campuses, as well as relying on particular pantheons (usually).
Jesuit Education similarly relies on a high faith income, which he might not have.
Not something I'd recommend in a general science game.
Also there is the issue of securing a religion on Immortal, which usually costs a lot of early investment into holy sites and maybe holy site prayers.
If you end up going that route, you are usually setting yourself back even further on Immortal.
It can work, but going religion blindy for science purposes is generally not sound advice imo.

As long as he gets Kilwa though (which he should always do), suzeraining those blue city states is of top priority, and he should keep dumping envoys there just to maintain suzerainty if the AIs keep going for them.
If not, getting 1 envoy early and a bit later 3 envoys is of course a good strat (maybe 6, if it's the late game and he has plenty of research labs).

 

[japanesesamurai]

Most of your post is spot on, but I take issue with Hypatia (and maybe Newton).
Yes they are great, but getting those on Immortal can be very difficult, especially Hypatia.
Rushing GPP to get Hypatia early will usually come at a very heavy price, as you need to focus on campuses with buildings asap and after that most likely run research projects, at a time where you want to expand with more cities.
You might be able to buy her for faith, but that is a very big if since the AI more often than not will snag her right away as you barely got your first couple of campuses online.
Remember, this guy plays Immortal, and Hypatia on Immortal is very hard to secure consistently.

As for religion, that heavily depends on the map, and as the OP said, he wanted general advice and not circumstantial strategies (which also applies to Hypatia/Newton above).
As a general strategy, I'd say that this is bad advice.
I believe that getting a religion when going science is a lot of "ifs and buts", and not something one should do blindly as a strategy.
I finished up a science game with Gaul on Deity yesterday, and I certainly didn't need a religion for it (ended with 1300 science per turn, about turn 300 win on Epic speed).
Speaking of religion, it's even more circumstantial since if you do get one, only Work Ethic and Jesuit Education are somewhat synergistic with science, and in the case of Work Ethic, getting full benefit from it (by getting high adjacency holy sites) both delays campuses, as well as relying on particular pantheons (usually).
Jesuit Education similarly relies on a high faith income, which he might not have.
Not something I'd recommend in a general science game.
Also there is the issue of securing a religion on Immortal, which usually costs a lot of early investment into holy sites and maybe holy site prayers.
If you end up going that route, you are usually setting yourself back even further on Immortal.
It can work, but going religion blindy for science purposes is generally not sound advice imo.

As long as he gets Kilwa though (which he should always do), suzeraining those blue city states is of top priority, and he should keep dumping envoys there just to maintain suzerainty if the AIs keep going for them.
If not, getting 1 envoy early and a bit later 3 envoys is of course a good strat (maybe 6, if it's the late game and he has plenty of research labs).

While Hypatia does come early and is tricky to hire, Newton is almost garanteed. I don’t think I ever played a game in which I didn’t hire Newton

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

While Hypatia does come early and is tricky to hire, Newton is almost garanteed. I don’t think I ever played a game in which I didn’t hire Newton

Happens to me often enough tbh.
Are you playing Immo/Deity? (If not, then that may explain how you get him every time)

Last game especially (10 player game, Deity as Gaul) nearly all the AI went ham on science (only China went the culture route for GWAMs).
At the time Newton went I was still in the phase of settling new cities and building campuses in the cities I had settled.
While I did have some GPP towards GS, the AIs were so deep into their progress (I recall Sweden had about about 16 GPP per turn alone, lol) that Newton went almost instantly once the preceding GS' were recruited (had no real faith income to buy him with either).

Doesn't happen all the time of course, but usually I won't count on Newton always being available.
This post was also tailored to the prerequisite of the OP, - he didn't want circumstantial advice, hence I wouldn't suggest things he can't always control (Newton and especially Hypatia being one of those circumstances).
If you can secure Newton however, sure, of course you should go for him, can't disagree there.

 

[japanesesamurai]

Yes deity. Maybe it’s because I play with only 5 players including me

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Yes deity. Maybe it’s because I play with only 5 players including me

Ah, that might explain it, cheers for your reply.
Yeah on 6 total players it should be more available with less overall competition.
I exclusively play 8 players or more, so that may colour my estimates on how likely on is to get a particular GP or pantheon for that matter.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Yes deity. Maybe it’s because I play with only 5 players including me

More players = Less Great Peoples. On some large-than-vanilla game settings, every turn someone will claim one GP.

 

[Siddharth Venkatesh]

You should probably build campuses in every city. You can delay them in some cities to your 4th or 7th population point, but envoy bonuses and the rationalism boost on 10 pop make even crappy campuses really valuable. For domination or science victories, the campus is probably the most important district. You should also place districts as soon as the slot is unlocked. The price gets locked in when you place it, and waiting can make them much more expensive.

The other thing I would recommend is to focus on culture early. Early culture does more for long term science than anything else in the game, aside from large production boosts like Hansas. A lot of your science will come from key policies, like Doubling Campus Adjacency or Rationalism. Policies also unlock the biggest production boosts in the game, such as Craftsmen for IZ focused civs, and military production boosts. For mid to late game war as well, corps and armies tend to be a big deaI, so getting to them sooner is important. Democracy and Communism also provide huge boosts to production. If you get to civics at a good time, it will make it much easier to overcome the AI's early advantage.