Concetration Camp

[Kabcsi]

Hi!

I know that this is a disputable matter, but these camps were the very sad part of history. (US camps for the natives, spanish camps for cubans and philippines, english camps for the boers, or the nazi camps)

I need help to create this building, and i have some questions.
How can i do that:
-concetration camps can be build in occupied cities
-these camps boost the culture conversion
-causes -x relations with the rest of the world
-every other civ gaines a casus belli against the builder

Can anyone help with this?

 

[Zoinker]

You're right, it is controversial.

Personally though, I doubt anyone would bother making it at all with the penalties mentioned (Plus the historical implications). If there was a way to make them 'hidden' from other civs unless certain requirements are met, it might work. I would see them as terrain improvements (as opposed to buildings) that bring extra food and production (labor camps) and 'convert' the city working it to your culture, but if a unit belonging to another civ enters its square you suffer massive relationship penalties with that civ and lesser penalties with other civs it has OB or other treaties with.

This way players can benefit from these things, giving them a reason to build them, while adding a significant enough risk to make them think twice before doing so. Of course, automated workers should never make these unprompted and the emancipation civic should make it unavailable.

Just to make it clear, I don't condone these things at all in real life. Then again, I don't condone nukes either, but that doesn't keep me from making a couple occasionally.

 

[Gooblah]

Destroys foreign culture within 10 turns
% of population with foreign culture destroyed (i.e 10 pop city, 20% minority; 2 pop dead)
Can only be built in war time

I hate the concept, but the idea has a place in history.

 

[Kabcsi]

The camps are reprehensible, but sadly they're facts. If we want to make the game more historically accurate, we can't miss them. I think every rational people clench it's fists when hear the word "concetration camp", me too. But it adds a flavor to the game. I really wish that it can be a phantasmagoria, but we must face the truth. No one can't be blind, we have to admit these "dark facts" of history, and must fight against them, make sure that won't happen again! For now, it's nothing than an adaption of a "dark fact" into a game.

@Gooblah: i like your odds and penalties. they're much better than mines...

Can this be done only in xml?

 

[Headlock]

The camps are reprehensible, but sadly they're facts. If we want to make the game more historically accurate, we can't miss them. I think every rational people clench it's fists when hear the word "concetration camp", me too. But it adds a flavor to the game. I really wish that it can be a phantasmagoria, but we must face the truth. No one can't be blind, we have to admit these "dark facts" of history, and must fight against them, make sure that won't happen again! For now, it's nothing than an adaption of a "dark fact" into a game.

@Gooblah: i like your odds and penalties. they're much better than mines...

Can this be done only in xml?

Sure.

and while we're at it, lets add in lynching, genocide, mass shootings, torture chambers, mass graves, forced marches, starvation policies, discriminatory laws, Autos des Fe, ghettos, etc etc.

Cop on.
This does NOT add "flavor" to the game. And cloaking it in the thin veil of "only depicting history" is just some much crap.


"Must face the truth"? What bulls**t.

It is a typical gratuitous attempt to trivialize horrific events, whatever era and culture. It is extremely insulting to the victims and survivors of such things to use them as a game component.

This is juvenile and insensitive. I cannot imagine how this mod could be condoned on this site. My point has nothing to do about politics; its simple respect and honour of victims.

HDK

 

[Jeckel]

A mod is a mod and if people want to use it they can. If you don't want to that is your buisness and no one will force you to download it.

What is not condoned on this site is the pointless bashing of others ideas and creations. If you don't have something constructive to say then take it somewhere else.

EDIT: You have "balls" in your sig and you called someone "juvenile". Thanx I needed a good laugh.

 

[Headlock]

What is not condoned on this site is the pointless bashing of others ideas and creations. If you don't have something constructive to say then take it somewhere else.

EDIT: You have "balls" in your sig and you called someone "juvenile". Thanx I needed a good laugh.

Fair enough; but I DO have a point- I feel it is demeaning to make such events and places so trivial. I was registering my opposition to even the idea of doing that, and I feel it IS a valid point. Its not like its a mod about train stations; its about places of mass slaughter. How can that become a game element?

and the sig is just that- a humorous sig, and relates nothing to this topic. It does not put anything down, or trivialise anything. It is totally irrelevant to this.

Anyway, i've said my piece, ill leave well alone.

HDK

 

[alireza1354]

Yeahhhh!! Concentration camps! Bring it ooonnnn!

 

[Serenity42]

Slavery is already an available civic, and it's impossible to tell how many millions or billions of people throughout history have suffered as slaves. To draw the line in the sand here seems...a little arbitrary.

We can all agree that camps, no matter who built them and who was incarcerated in them, were horrible, evil things. I doubt that anybody here could even consider inflicting that sort of treatment on their fellow person. But does the inclusion of these very real abominations trivialize them? No more so than the inclusion of slavery. The point is not about everybody agreeing that camps were bad or including them in a game that recreates the rise and fall of civilizations trivializes the suffering of those held in camps. We know the camps were bad, and anybody who has ever seen the photos of the liberated camps or, as I have, talked to survivors, knows full well exactly how serious the situation remains to this day. But the fact remains that labor and prison camps have always been tools of police states, and continue, in one form or another, to be so today. As does slavery.

Yes, agreed wholeheartedly: the mere idea of camps is repugnant beyond measure. As is slavery. But just because a building or a civic is available does not mean you have to use it, nor condone its use. If you spot another civ using camps, declare war on them and liberate the camps. Or, better still, just don't install the mod. Either way, though, pretending that camps, like slavery, were not pivotal in the evolution of human societies is more a disservice to those who suffered and died - or suffered and lived - than remembering them in a simulation.

 

[sgrig]

This would be a good addition to any WW2 mod.

 

[EviltheMonkey]

I'm not sure if I'd want to install the mod personally but if I may make a neutral observation on gooblah's suggested stats, the population death aspect could well render the building useless.

If I take a city with only 20% foreign culture I'm not going to care to much to remove it that quickly at the cost of pop. If I wanted to get rid of foreign culture quickly it would have to be high enough to be an immediate culture flip risk (say more that 60%). Getting rid of a majority of the cities pop would be very drastic and if I'm going to the trouble I might as well raze the place and build a new city from scratch.

The way I'd impliement it would be similar to whipping up production, so sacrifice a population point for a culture boost and increased unhappiness for so many turns. If it was a city function you could limit it by civic (ie Police State). This isn't so much a physical structure as a result of a govenment choice (like slavery).

Hope that all makes sense, I'm not being very lucid today

 

[GoodGame]

The thing with most modern concentration camps that the OP is trying to model, is that they are more like illegal POW camps for seizing civillians to pre-empt them from being guerillas, spies, saboteurs, etc... I wouldn't assume they were always for political indoctrination or worse.

I think the way to make it work is to give certain government civics and civs at war the temporary ability to make a concentration camp, with the negative issues the OP states. But then have the camp become inactive if those civic / warstate changes.

I'd throw in a local espionage bonus for having an active camp, and the idea of nullifiying neighboring civ's culture within the city's double cross makes more sense in cultural effects (instead of having the camp generate culture or indoctrinate) .

Separate indoctrination centers for some government types would make sense for speeding cultural conversion.

As an aside, POWs technically can't be forced to do labor, but it would be simple to say that the Camp or a related Slave Market, adds +1 production to all worked tiles.

You're right, it is controversial.

Personally though, I doubt anyone would bother making it at all with the penalties mentioned (Plus the historical implications). If there was a way to make them 'hidden' from other civs unless certain requirements are met, it might work. I would see them as terrain improvements (as opposed to buildings) that bring extra food and production (labor camps) and 'convert' the city working it to your culture, but if a unit belonging to another civ enters its square you suffer massive relationship penalties with that civ and lesser penalties with other civs it has OB or other treaties with.

 

[Kabcsi]

Concetration Camp

* Destroys foreign culture within 10 turns
* % of population with foreign culture destroyed (i.e 10 pop city, 20% minority; 2 pop dead)
* Can only be built in war time
* Required civic: Police State

I need a graph for this. Can anyone do this for me? (the base of this can be the "barb wired wall from Fury Road).

 

[Encyclopath]

I was thinking the same thing, and I agree on both the controversy vs. the sad truth of history. I think Sid and his crew made the best decision to leave these things out, or at least to the mod community.
That said, I was thinking the same thing recently, as well as adding various atrocities that can be committed (and avenged...).
The additions that came to mind included:
Political genocide (cleansing is not a strong enough word), which forcefully restores a city's culture % in your favor, with diplomatic penalties, unhappiness, and population loss.
Ethnic Genocide, which would replace the "raze" feature when conquering a city. I always found razing as it exists in Civ4 to be a much too convenient and forgiving necessity. Rather than instantly destroying the city and its inhabitants, it should decrease a cities population over a period of turns until it reaches 0 and is destroyed, or it is halted by the player, and the city is re-established with more a favorable cultural %. I would also like to see a new refugee unit generated every few turns during this process, which would automatically seek out and settle in a nearby friendly city (to the original owner). The unit would be removed, and one population point, would be added as an angry citizen for a set number of turns. I think this would simulate the "refugee crisis" situations that occur all too frequently.
Religious genocide: This one combines two touchy subjects, and would only be useful in game terms with modified civics that penalizes you for non-state religions. Basically, it would function the same as Political genocide, except it would randomly eliminate non-state religions over a period of time.

The concentration camp would be required for political and religious genocide, and ethnic genocide would depend on the number and type of melee/gun units occupying the city. A special non-combat unit type could be added to expedite the process.

Hi!

I know that this is a disputable matter, but these camps were the very sad part of history. (US camps for the natives, spanish camps for cubans and philippines, english camps for the boers, or the nazi camps)

I need help to create this building, and i have some questions.
How can i do that:
-concetration camps can be build in occupied cities
-these camps boost the culture conversion
-causes -x relations with the rest of the world
-every other civ gaines a casus belli against the builder

Can anyone help with this?

 

[Encyclopath]

I don't think it's demeaning. In fact, I think it is demeaning NOT to at least refer to these sorts of events in fiction, film, and even games, when it would be relevant. How many games and movies set in WWII Europe make no reference to the Holocaust, or even Nazi atrocities in general? (i.e. Hogans Heroes? No one thought that was kind of sick?)
I agree that anything that includes such content shouldn't trivialize it or make light of it, much less celebrate it, but it's an equal disservice to whitewash, gloss over, ignore, and eventually forget about it.

Fair enough; but I DO have a point- I feel it is demeaning to make such events and places so trivial. I was registering my opposition to even the idea of doing that, and I feel it IS a valid point. Its not like its a mod about train stations; its about places of mass slaughter. How can that become a game element?

and the sig is just that- a humorous sig, and relates nothing to this topic. It does not put anything down, or trivialise anything. It is totally irrelevant to this.

Anyway, i've said my piece, ill leave well alone.

HDK

 

[Encyclopath]

This would be a good addition to any WW2 mod.

Absolutely. It would make for an ideal scenario in which one must stop these atrocities, rather than commit them.

 

[Zacar]

I always raze the cities I conquer and found new ones.

Funny if concentration camps in a game seem somehow more wrong than razing cities, or war at all.

You sure you want to restrict it for police state only? Would suit despotism and heredity rule also. Or perhaps some civics could disallow it.

 

[Crighton]

Funny if concentration camps in a game seem somehow more wrong than razing cities, or war at all.

Truly a good point. Personally I'm all in favor of killing the enemy or my rivals, which is why I'd prefer a Gulag for "re-education" assimilation of my newer and un-cultured people.

 

[Kabcsi]

Okay...another idea:

1. Contrentration Camp (req: Police State)
2. Gulag (req: State Property)

feedbacks?

and of course if someone wants to help me... it's welcome..

 

[General_R]

Hi!

I know that this is a disputable matter, but these camps were the very sad part of history. (US camps for the natives, spanish camps for cubans and philippines, english camps for the boers, or the nazi camps)

I need help to create this building, and i have some questions.
How can i do that:
...
-these camps boost the culture conversion
...

None of the camps you mentioned above ever resulted in a cultural boost. In fact these camps - the Nazi camps especially - resulted in a HUGE culutral loss (in the Nazi´s case for all of Eastern Europe AND Germany).

The idea of the CIV-games is to develope your civilization. I don´t see how a concentration camp could help you there ...