Condition Sensitive Curruption

[llib_rm]

I would like to see the corruption algorithm modified to include the duration of governement types and happiness of citizens. This assumes that corruption is higher when a new governement type is chosen than with a long term stable governement. Happiness is a factor of crime, education, and access to business opportunities. When the citizens are happy there should be less corrupton than when they are unhappy.

I cannot help believe that outlying cities in a stable democracy lasting over 100 years where 3/2 of the citizens are happy or content is more corrupt that a newly formed communist state.

 

[Spatula]

I mostly agree: the corruption system we have now is rubbish IMHO. How corrupt a person is has nothing to do with how far the capital is, although some would argue that distance would make it easier to get away with corruption.

 

[frekk]

Supposedly, they're getting rid of corruption, pollution, maintenance, and a few other things for Civ4.

 

[Spatula]

God I hate pollution.....this is Civ, not SimCity!

 

[Yuri2356]

God I hate pollution.....this is Civ, not SimCity!

So? Polution is still a major problem that all post-industrial civilizations have had to face. The fact that our actions can have adverse effects on the global environment cannot be ignored. Besides, without polution, what is there to keep you from hyper-industrializing as soon as possible and out-producing the AI? The fact that polution begins to be produced long before effective counter-measures become availible helps to keep the first industrial nation from dominating too easily.

 

[Spatula]

Well here in London we don't have instant orange splashes that can't be predicted draining our food and making us unhappy. And it isn't as easy to get rid of as it is in the game so there's the realism card out of the window.

It's an 'un-fun' element and I can see no point in it.

 

[llib_rm]

So? Polution is still a major problem that all post-industrial civilizations have had to face.

I agree. Pollution is also a factor of enforcing environmental controls. So the greater the corruption that greater the pollution.

 

[Yuri2356]

Well here in London we don't have instant orange splashes that can't be predicted draining our food and making us unhappy. And it isn't as easy to get rid of as it is in the game so there's the realism card out of the window.

It's an 'un-fun' element and I can see no point in it.

So we alter and improve polution to make it more realistic, It doesn't need to be exactly like the polution system we use now, but it should still be there.

 

[Spatula]

I just hate having to keep running workers up and down, especially because I hardly ever actually build factories! How does knowing how to build a factory without actually having one give you pollution?

 

[Yuri2356]

I just hate having to keep running workers up and down, especially because I hardly ever actually build factories! How does knowing how to build a factory without actually having one give you pollution?

Just because you have yet to establish official government-regulated industries doesn't mean you people don't polute. Those coal-powered railways that span you empire, what do you think they do to the atmosphere? All those homes that your people occupy, how do you think they're being heated and powered? What do you think if fueling your ships, tanks, and planes?

This is getting a bit off topic....

 

[frekk]

Pollution has zero effect in the game as it is, except to make extra work. Most people just drop a stack of workers on pollution that pops up and clear it up in the same round it appears, or perhaps a round or two later. Therefore it is just an unfun burden and doesn't, in any case, model real effects of pollution. Get rid of it. It has no effect on anything, just makes extra work.

Better idea to represent this sort of thing would be to have finite resources that run out after you've used them too many rounds or something. But even that would get tedious I think, and you'd have to work around it so that there were still some luxuries left by the time the industrial era came around. Sounds too complicated and unfun to me. Besides - Civ is not real. It's a game. You shouldn't look to it as being educational or reflecting on the real world. If it spurs an interest in real world things that's great but I don't think it's good to draw any lessons from Civ or try to make Civ teach people anything. It is entertainment, and that is all. Including models of phenomena in the real world should only be done if it can be made fun. I can't think of a pollution model that is going to be fun.

 

[Doom]

it would be nice if there was just the global warming in civ 4

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

The impression I get is that they are not so much getting RID of things like corruption and pollution, just that they are getting rid of the current system for pollution and corruption (which they dsecribed as a 'whack-a-mole' approach !) The point is that corruption and pollution can be good for the overall game IF it is done right-minimizing and/or eliminating micromanagement would be a good start, IMHO!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Albow]

I agree, that corruption should remain, but in a completely different system ... I like the idea that more long term stable govt slowly get rid of corruption ...

same with pollution, it is a problem to overcome, a new challenge, and the concept should remain even if the implementation is so very different.


I also want to add that after Ancient age, corruption should not be based on distance (which makes new colonies far away completely useless) - that aspect has always annoyed me!

 

[Jon Shafer]

Corruption should be removed entirely. It's purpose is to try and limit the power of large empires, but in practice it really doesn't work. There are better ways to limit expansion.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

But corruption, like pollution, is something which most national leaders HAVE to deal with at some point or other, so removing corruption ALTOGETHER would, for me, hurt both gameplay AND realism. I do agree, though, that using corruption as a means of limiting expansion IS a bad idea, and that corruption should be based on other, more salient factors-factors which can be dealt with without creating an MM headache! But removing it completely would not make for a good, immersive game IMHO!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[frekk]

I agree. Corruption is just not working, in the present model. It's not even accurate, anyway. Big empires are neither necessarily more corrupt nor necessarily less productive than small countries: look at all the countries of the Third World, many of them are severely corrupt, but they aren't exactly sprawling empires. Distance from the capitol as a measure of corruption never made sense to me; the capitol is usually where corruption is the worst.

Yes, just get rid of corruption. I think if the power of large empires is to be limited, it shouldn't be through corruption, it should be some other mechanism, perhaps political instability (ie unhappiness, insurgencies) or something.

They'll have to fix Communism if they get rid of corruption as currently it is the only attraction for that form of gov't.

 

[Jon Shafer]

But corruption, like pollution, is something which most national leaders HAVE to deal with at some point or other, so removing corruption ALTOGETHER would, for me, hurt both gameplay AND realism. I do agree, though, that using corruption as a means of limiting expansion IS a bad idea, and that corruption should be based on other, more salient factors-factors which can be dealt with without creating an MM headache! But removing it completely would not make for a good, immersive game IMHO!

There are a number of things which most national leaders have had to deal with that aren't modelled in Civ, and I see no reason why Corruption should be any different. Corruption was included merely to limit expansion, and I think it should be axed. Of all the things I think of that aren't already in Civ, I could name a couple dozen things I'd like to see added/retained sooner than "corruption." There are more important things to worry about improving or including, IMO.

 

[Spatula]

The effect of corruption:

1)Build a city
2)Put some defenders in it
3)Build a Temple
4)Build a Library
5) Watch your city flip to another civ because it's taken you so long to build the culture improvments that your citizens are fed up.

Culture flips are silly too. I can only see the worth of them in Civil War scenarios, where your cities go over to the rebel civ because they hate you too.