Confused about warmongering

[Hiskias]

OK, so Gorgo attacks my suzerainty and I gain casus belli with no war declaration penalty. So far so good. I promptly beat the living daylights out of her and all of a sudden everyone starts denouncing me for being a warmonger. WTH? So I make peace with her as soon as I can, and then for the rest of the game she despises me for "avoiding war". WTH? My erstwhile staunch ally, Norway, smacks me with -68 penalty for warmongering, which is a) dumb, and b) a ridiculous overkill.

So, does this really work as intended? The only effect for having a valid casus belli seems to be a slightly delayed condemnation by AI players. Interestingly my other ally, Egypt, didn't care at all, and Cleopatra remained as happy with me as ever. Everyone else condemned me for practically the rest of the game - is it really necessary for the disproportionate warmongering penalty to decay so painfully slowly?

Oh, and while on the subject of suzerainties, why is it possible for an ally to attack my suzerainty and I can't even protest it - other than denouncing her, which I really wouldn't want to do? At the very least I should be able to make a demand to "please stop attacking my city states", but nooooo, can't do.

 

[RealHuhn]

Just use the in-game civilopedia and search "casus belli". Each casus belli has different penalties for declaring war, razing and capturing cities.
Protectorate war doesn't have a war declaration penalty but if you capture a city, I'm pretty sure it acts like a surprise war which makes sense because you've told the whole world that you only wanted to protect a city state. Genocide wasn't part of the deal.

 

[leandrombraz]

Oh, and while on the subject of suzerainties, why is it possible for an ally to attack my suzerainty and I can't even protest it - other than denouncing her, which I really wouldn't want to do? At the very least I should be able to make a demand to "please stop attacking my city states", but nooooo, can't do.

Being able to do something when an ally declare a war on one of your city-states is an old request from pretty much everyone that Firaxis still didn't even acknowledge to be an issue that need to be solved. I really hope they will address this some day.

 

[Linklite]

OK, so Gorgo attacks my suzerainty and I gain casus belli with no war declaration penalty. So far so good. I promptly beat the living daylights out of her and all of a sudden everyone starts denouncing me for being a warmonger. WTH?

The key aspect here is, what do you mean by "beat the living daylights out of her"? Did you bomb the snot out of her armies, then walk away, having protected your protectorate, according to your casus belli?
Or did you do that, then promptly capture half of her empire in transgression of your casus belli?
If, as I suspect, it's the latter, then there's your problem. You (effectively) pretended to be simply protecting your protectorate, then used that cover to invade. That would definitely incur grievances.

So I make peace with her as soon as I can, and then for the rest of the game she despises me for "avoiding war". WTH

Her agenda is that she hates people who have peace deals. It sucks, but that's how it works. She respects those who go to war and stay at war.

My erstwhile staunch ally, Norway, smacks me with -68 penalty for warmongering, which is a) dumb, and b) a ridiculous overkill.

That is the game working properly, but the mechanics a poorly designed in my opinion. While allies will still get upset, they should be mitigated.

The only effect for having a valid casus belli seems to be a slightly delayed condemnation by AI players.

No, that's not how it works. The Protectorate War CB only has scope for destroying units. If, for example, you use the colonial war CB, you get more scope.

Everyone else condemned me for practically the rest of the game - is it really necessary for the disproportionate warmongering penalty to decay so painfully slowly?

Are you playing vanilla/R&F or GS? The old warmongering system was unfair, but grievances made it much better.

Oh, and while on the subject of suzerainties, why is it possible for an ally to attack my suzerainty and I can't even protest it - other than denouncing her, which I really wouldn't want to do? At the very least I should be able to make a demand to "please stop attacking my city states", but nooooo, can't do.

Yeah, they really should let you do something about that. I've not had the issue come up yet, but I can imagine it would be really frustrating.

 

[Galvatron]

OK, so Gorgo attacks my suzerainty and I gain casus belli with no war declaration penalty. So far so good. I promptly beat the living daylights out of her and all of a sudden everyone starts denouncing me for being a warmonger. WTH? So I make peace with her as soon as I can, and then for the rest of the game she despises me for "avoiding war". WTH? My erstwhile staunch ally, Norway, smacks me with -68 penalty for warmongering, which is a) dumb, and b) a ridiculous overkill.

You're missing something, hijo. Somewhere down the line you made a faux pas that led to this. As you describe it you should get no warmongering penalties, and maybe even NEGATIVE penalties.

My first guess would be that you captured AND kept Gorgo's cities, razed them, or something. Did you do anything along those lines?

It's worth noting you only receive war monger penalties AFTER the war, so it is after a fashion delayed, yes. But you should be able to avoid them completely.

Some general tips regardless:
-Get everyone to declare war on gorgo. This will prevent them from begrudging you for doing stuff to her.
-Declare friendships if you can before going to war. This prevents them from doing anything until their greivances against you are already gone.
-Balance the penalties for warmongering with the bonuses from fighting war mongers. You can often take a bit of their cake without anyone caring because it was justified. If Gorgo has a little island nearby that she forward settled you on... it might reappear on your side of the map.
-Gorgo is going to fight in wars. Expect her to do this, and be ready for it. This means two things: be ready, and everyone hates her, so you can make easy friends.

 

[Hiskias]

Yeah, I did sort of raze the two of her encroaching cities next to me and Hattusa, so that explains it then. Live and learn.

And "good" to know that I'm not alone in wondering about that issue with ally attacking my city states. Highly annoying but looks like it won't be fixed...

Btw, I'm also quite annoyed with the missionary spam within my borders. That looks like it needs more mechanisms to counter. Spies assassinating them maybe?

 

[Uberfrog]

Btw, I'm also quite annoyed with the missionary spam within my borders. That looks like it needs more mechanisms to counter. Spies assassinating them maybe?

You could start and Inquisition and build inquisitors to kill them. Or failing that, if they’ve converted one of your cities, declare a Holy War casus belli and put them to the sword instantly.

 

[leandrombraz]

Btw, I'm also quite annoyed with the missionary spam within my borders. That looks like it needs more mechanisms to counter. Spies assassinating them maybe?

If it's in early to mid game, before you worry about it, be sure that the AI is converting your cities and not just passing through your territory. The AI tend to focus early on converting cities that don't have a religion, and it's obsessed with converting City-States, so if your cities already have a religion, it's quite likely that the AI is just targeting a CS nearby or another Civ. Unless you see the AI spreading their religion in your cities, there isn't any reason to worry. Usually the AI only gets serious about converting other Civs by late game, when you might see a wave of apostles and missionaries coming on your way.
Theological Combat is a good way to spread your religion though, so killing these missionaries, regardless of what they are doing, can be beneficial. You can use inquisitors to do that and you can try to get at least one apostle with the debater promotion (+20 combat strength), to deal with other debaters. Religious units have ZoC, so a few well positioned inquisitors/debaters can work as a net and catch any religious unit that tries to pass through. If the AI manages to convert one of your cities, just use a charge from your inquisitors to convert it back to your religion.

 

[Galvatron]

Yeah, I did sort of raze the two of her encroaching cities next to me and Hattusa, so that explains it then. Live and learn.

Ah yes, well I had a hunch...

It's worth noting that when you're declaring a war in defence of a city state you suffer a BONUS warmonger penalty due to the hypocrisy of destroying cities in the name of protecting cities. The civipedia has a page with the list of the effects of casus belli and which ones do which, so you should consult that when you're deciding the course of action.

And "good" to know that I'm not alone in wondering about that issue with ally attacking my city states. Highly annoying but looks like it won't be fixed...

It's not as bleak as other people make it sound IMHO. But it's pretty bad. You have some options, like you can put your troops in their way. And again I must stress that with personas like Gorgo you should assume that they're going to do this, because they will.

On the whole I recommend against razing cities because the penalties are so harsh and irreversible. I have a few strategems I could dispense if you're interested though.

Btw, I'm also quite annoyed with the missionary spam within my borders. That looks like it needs more mechanisms to counter. Spies assassinating them maybe?

There are plenty of mechanisms to counter them. And even more importantly they open up the opportunity to declare wars and pretense for despoiling your enemies for Freedom.