Conquest 04: Final Spoiler

(predator)

Link to Ancient Age spoiler
Link to Middle Ages spoiler

Summary

100K cultural victory in 1310AD.

Invading the Second Continent

At the end of the Middle Ages in 870AD I was expecting to coast through the remainder of the game without warfare, spending my time filling in towns, building railroads, and rushing culture improvements with assistance from Civil Engineers.

In 870AD I gifted Germany, Sumeria, and Byzantines to the Industrial Age. Their free techs were Medicine, Steam Power, and Steam Power respectively. The price to trade for Steam Power seemed too high so I started researching it. In 880AD those three Civs had done some trading and Steam Power was affordable. I traded horses + 4 luxuries + 76gpt for it from Germany.

And then the big whammy - there was no coal anywhere in my lands! The world's only coal was on the other continent. And there wasn't much even there - it looked like poor odds that I'd be able to trade with anyone to get coal.

I'd invested a lot in reaching Steam Power and after doing that I wasn't about to finish the game without coal. The other continent had two sources near the coast where I could quickly take it over. One in Byzantine lands, one in Hittite lands. I had a commitment to supply the Byzantines spices for another 14 turns. I had no obligations to the Hittites so I targeted them for my invasion.

I still had my two Knight armies from the Iroquois wars. They would lead the invasion. I rushed some galleons and a settler, and brought all of my remaining Knights from around the continent to the departure point. I started some barracks builds to replace the barracks I'd disbanded earlier on and to then begin rebuilding my military.

In 950AD I declared war on Hittites and landed my first troops on their shores. In 960AD I destroyed their coal town, replaced it with my own, and rushed a harbor:



I didn't have any difficulty fending off the Hittite counter-attacks. And now that I'd begun military operations again I couldn't resist the opportunity to expand my holdings a bit. It was slow going because I didn't prioritize military production. I just produced units in the few core cities which had finished building all improvements and shipped them to the new world. I gave the Hittites peace in 1020AD. In 1100AD I declared on the Celts to take their wines and some of their land. In 1240AD I finally gave the Celts peace. At that date I controlled 57% of the world area.

I had no further warfare but did gain a bit more land by cultural expansion. It was especially nice to take a source of ivory this way from Sumeria :) At the end of the game I'd grown to have 60% of the world area. Here's my world map at the end, 1310AD, showing the details of the ivory squeezed out of Sumeria's hands (first a library rushed in Agedincum gained access to the tile where ColonyIvory was established, then I rushed its cultural improvements:



Research

After trading for Steam Power I researched directly toward Replaceable Parts. I learned Electricity in 920AD and Replaceable Parts in 960AD, four turns each.

After that I ran at zero research for a while, slowly trading away my tech lead to get Medicine, Printing Press, Economics, Military Tradition, a luxury, and some gold.

Eventually I started research again. My reasoning was that I could probably make a net profit on just a bit more research. Some of the other Civs were finally developing reasonable purchasing power. I learned Scientific Method in 1180AD, built Theory Of Evolution soon after, and took Industrialization and The Corporation as my free techs. Researching that one additional tech allowed me to build a number of Stock Exchanges before the end of the game and to continue trading my tech lead for the other Civs' cash.

An amusing thing I saw in the early Industrial Age: When the Byzantines discovered Printing Press in 900AD it became clear that they hadn't made contact with Sumeria yet!

Growth

As soon as I learned Replaceable Parts in 960AD I started using Civil Engineers in corrupt towns. Unhappy citizens and surplus citizens (those who were already specialists due to filling the land, and those producing an oversupply of food in towns which needed aqueducts) became Engineers.

The Civil Engineers helped first with temple production. Many towns had 2 or 3 of them and this resulted in a considerable production boost. Soon a lot of corrupt towns had completed both their library and their temple. I set a number of these towns to building universities (if small) or cathedrals (if large and the happiness boost would help.) After a while I started switching new towns which completed their temples to wealth since the end of the game was in sight. In 1290AD my last temple was completed - all 233 of my cities had libraries and temples. I managed to also rush a number of cathedrals and universities in corrupt towns before the game finished.

Despite the shortness of the time I had them I think that the cost of getting Civil Engineers (i.e. research to Replaceable Parts) is worthwhile in a 100K culture game. It feels like I got more back from them than I lost due to the research cost. Hard to be sure though.

During the Industrial Age most of my productive cities completed all basic improvements (each ended up with temple, library, cathedral, university, colosseum, marketplace, bank) and a number of them also completed stock exchanges.

My income at the end of the game with the luxury and science sliders at zero was 1838gpt. 266gpt of that was coming from trade with other Civs.

Culture reference points from my game:
Code:
  date   culture   c/turn
  750BC     298      +30
   10AD    2663     +109
  300AD    5476     +220
  600AD   15747     +501
  900AD   36824     +872
 1000AD   46104    +1028
 1100AD   58088    +1299    
 1200AD   72139    +1461
 1250AD   79760    +1558
 1300AD   96623    +1821
 1310AD  100356    +1881

I didn't quite reach my goal of +2000 culture/turn.

And the culture graph:



Northeast Island

It took me unti 1020AD to deal with all the barbarians which had accumulated on this island. I handled most of them by just absorbing their attacks, settling towns where I could draw them out and then letting them pillage the towns. (I never had much gold left at the end of a turn so this didn't hurt.)

Eventually I did control the island and I settled it very densely. During the war on Hittites I took their one town there and during the war on Celts I took their two. That left just two stubborn foreign towns, one belonging to Germany, one to Sumeria. I really thought I'd get one or both of these towns to flip to me. I applied great cultural pressure on them but both remained stubbornly loyal till the end. Despite my culture lead and pressure in many places I didn't receive a single town from a culture flip in the entire game. Here's a picture of the culture squeeze on the two most stubborn resistors at the end of the game:

 
@denyd:

Thanks for the tips, I'm sure they'll help me investigate this for me relatively new side of Civ.

My main reason for asking this in this forum is of course to allow specific rather than general answers. We know the civ, difficulty level and terrain.

Do people think it is worth it to walk to the coast to be able to get the coastal wonders? It is quite far and the surrounding countryside doesn't quite look as good. The best location would problably be on the hill near the river mouth, giving 3BG, 5G, 2F, 1hill, 2 mountains and a fish.

Assuming city nr1 will be the settler pump and will settler N or NE, what is the best place for the 20k city? My thoughts go towards the east side of the river, with four likely options (See picture):

Blue: 3H, 3BG, 4F, 10G, 4 moves from settler pump
Red: 3H, 4BG,2F, 11G, 4 moves
Yellow: 5H, 4BG, 2F, 1M, 8G, 5 moves
Pink: 1H, 2 mountains, 3BG, 5G, 1 fish, 2F, 6 ocean, 6 moves + coast

From this, my preference would probably go to blue: It has the same ultimate potential (exchanging one grassland for a plain) and more short term production (Forest) for temple, library, etc.. These two extra forests might wel yield a BG even though one of them is on a plain, but we might wish to keep one forest for production anyway. Yellow is just too far away for what it offers, althought the ultimate production potential is higher due to the extra hills and mountain; pink is even further and has 6 fairly unproductive ocean squares. But it is on the water, allowing for colossus etc..

What do you guys think?

About research order: should I try and get CB and myst for the temple + wonder, or go for a republic (or even literature) slingshot?
 

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Just finished, and though I was naturally beaten by SirPleb, only by three quarters of a century. Doing so scored me new personal bests for Firaxis and Jason scores (over 7000 and over 9000, respectively).

Lucky for me that the limit was 100000 instead of 130000, because the non doubling effect of temples was really beginning to show its weakness in the latter stages. I had 230 or so cities, each with a temple, but only 20 or so were hand built and half those hand built were done too late to matter, when settling the island to the northeast. I wish I had realized there would be no 1000 year double before starting this game, or I might have gone with a different strategy.
 
I had three Aztec towns surrounded like that for over 500 years without them flipping. I couldn't believe that in the end I actually had to take more than just their capital.
 
I just finished the COTM (open class), which was probably my best civ3 game ever played :)

Was a really enjoyable game, i won by Domination in 1665 AD, with normal score: 5973 and Jason score: 7094

Congrats to evryone who played esp. those who did real well :goodjob:

Great map Ainwood!
 
Ancient Ages
Medieval Ages

Open class, My second submission

Spaceship victory in some 16xx, yielding 6999 Jason IIRC. It was sort of disappointment after getting over 9000 for domination in GOTM34 to me as I outresearched AI by an era (the best of them started research industrial techs when my SS launched.
I had probably use my advantage immediately and go for domination or share techs intensively to speed up my research. Instead from MA, when the AI ceased to be significant opposition, I played the game like sand-box one resulting in very slow victory.
 
@horragoth, did you reach the domination limit? That's important for score, even on non-military victory conditions.
 
Dianthus said:
@horragoth, did you reach the domination limit? That's important for score, even on non-military victory conditions.

I had over 70 % world population, and 60 % territory. I stopped conquering to prevent domination victory as I wanted a builder-type victory this time. I thought that if I reached the territory domination limit as well the domination victory would kick in and other victory-type would be prevented. If there is something I am missing, please tell me.
 
Sounds like you did the right things. From your ealier spoilers I thought maybe you had only taken territory on the original continent, which would have resulted in a low Fireaxis score.
 
@Dianthus: Thx for answer. This game taught me that the score is not given to me how much I outperform the AI opposition, but rather how well I perform absolutely. I have known that the AI can be used as a tool to promote own goals and I even manage to use it sometimes at higher difficulty settings, but I failed to use it in this game, where I wasn't pressed to it.
 
[c3c] predator

Started this discussion in Spoiler 1, but finishing it here as it is the most actual spoiler.

In spoiler 1 SirPleb showed he build 4 workers from his settler pump, before cranking out his 1st settler. Of course he had the luck of his settler-pop from hut, still I asked myself the question what the value could be of 2 workers vs. 1 settler, when created as early 2710BC. I did some (quite straightforward) maths and post below my assumptions and results for discussion purposes.

Assumptions:
1) One worker available in 2800BC, one in 2710BC (as in my game where I had settler pump ready by 2900BC).
2) Worker will only mine and road grass-like tiles with sequence: move, road, mine (7 turns cycle).
3) Workers will only improve tiles that are being worked by a civilian of a city. Not too unrealistic, with a settler being created every 3-4 turns (but maybe some extra worker moves should be taken into account)
4) No corruption.
5) An agricultural trait (like this COTM)
6) Settler will settle on river (not always possible)
7) Settler will move 3 moves before settling.
8) Each settled town has 1 forest, and 1-2 BG’s available (depends on scenario, see below).
9) All squares worked by citizens have one commerce available (hence are on a river). This is not very realistic, but simplifies my commerce calcs!

Scenarios:
I then worked out in detail till 1000BC the following scenarios:
1) Settler cascade: Each new town produces settlers as quickly as possible.
2) Granary 1st, then settlers

Results based on above assumptions:
Workers:
472 commerce and 408 shields. No food as they didn’t irrigate.

Settler cascade (1BG):
As the city only has 3 food extra, it can only expand in 7 turns, still producing over 40 shields, hence a warrior and a settler in 14 turns.
Using this:
471 commerce , 367 shields and 384 food
At 1000 BC this was 7 settlers (210 shields), 9 warriors (90 shields), and work in progress/losses account for the other 67 shields.

Granary 1st (2BG’s):
After the granary has been built, crank out settlers as fast as possible:
434 commerce , 389 shields and 285 food. At 1000 BC this was only 4 settlers (120 shields), 2 granaries, (120 shields), and work in progress/losses (149 shields). Minus the upkeep of the granaries for 37 turns in total

Conclusions/Discussion:
1) As already generally accepted in a low food environment the granary doesn’t pay out. Only build one when having 4-5 food extra, which I was using as rule of thumb already. Also on higher levels corruption slows down this process even more.
2) Early workers seem to pay out, as they can add commerce and shields to citizens that really work the tiles. For strategies that need fast research, I would recommend them.
3) For the agricultural trait the settler cascade seems to work pretty well, balancing future growth, expansion and research/happiness. Watch out, the commerce part could be overestimated (assumption 9). Definite benefit is the o-so important expansion early on in the game. The warriors even give some protection as well.
4) For non-agricultural traits it looks like the early workers are worth it (even more? :hmm: ).

What did I learn and will do different from now on:
1) In a non-agricultural trait, as soon as I have my settler pump ready I’ll crank out some workers first. Bias here could be when food/resources are available in direct vicinity.
2) In an agricultural trait I’ll crank out 2 settlers 1st, than a couple of workers, than resuming the settlers. Something I didn’t do this game, but IMHO is worth it. On top they get replaced in 2 turns as well (SirPleb’s point)

Generally said:
Early workers from settler pump pay out for themselves.

Or with SirPleb’s words:
“Early workers can be quite valuable because they are useful for more turns, a kind of leveraging. And overall I favour producing workers from cities with granaries and a food bonus, the population loss is replaced more quickly”

I FULLY AGREE ! :goodjob:

Comments :sad: /Questions :confused: /Additions/(Dis)-agreements :thumbsup: :nono: /Ideas :hmm: ????

PS: don't hang me on the exact numbers, probably some different micromamagent could maybe add 5-10 shields/food/commerce
 
Open - Seeking the cow

I got close to 20k Firaxis points. I have lost sanity, play time was 85 hours :eek: It is not good for health to be an unemployed. I just went to food store and forgot my wallet back home :mad: Too much Civ, I guess.


Horseman invaded the home continent. I wanted to keep high research pace, therefore lacked gold for upgrades. Invasion on foreign continent I did with Cavalry. Some minimaps of the process:



Techs. In the MA optional techs had top priority. 1. Navigation enabled overseas trade route. Lucky the Celts had Wines available. The Sumerians had Ivory but they traded it to the Celts. Also I sent settler to claim Incense in between the Mongols cities. In 400AD I was up to 6 luxuries. 2. Music Theory. JS Bach Cathedral completed soon after in 270AD. In the IA. 1. Steam Power. 2. Replaceable Parts. 3. Sanitation. After those I piled gold for cash rushies.

Code:
Date AD Tech 
70   	Navigation
150  	Music Theory
440	Military Tradition
560	ToG ->IA
610	Steam Power
660	Electricity
710	Replaceable Parts
750	Medicine
790	Sanitation
...
2050 - Future tech 20

After all I have not played a huge map milk yet. I broke many personal records.

 
@Kuningas:
Well played. IMHO the cow is yours... :)




Now try milking a huge map for the HoF, you'll see it's fun. :crazyeye:
 
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