COTM 02 First Spoiler: End Of Ancient age

[Offa]

It would appear that more the half of the players moved the starting settler to the cow. That is impressive.

 

[Green Light]

Predator class

Well, its been a long time since i've participated in GOTM, mostly because was bored with the stupid RCP bug in PtW (the korean one (gotm 26 ?) was last one i submitted), and even longer time since i have posted anything in spoilers, so here we go.

Early moves

As many others, i scouted the hills with the worker, and made the decision to move west with the settler. (i actually tought the blue things under silks were a river when i looked real close to the monitor )

Ofcourse next moves revealed that they were in fact silks, and river was seen bit further west. As i didnt want to found on top of BG, or in the bad position where i could not reach coast, only option was to move to the hill and found there.

So Amsterdam was founded 3700 BC, and its first build would be the granary, and research is set to 100 % writing.

Early builds

Granary is completed in Amsterdam at 2850 BC, one turn before population rises to 4.
I see no other civs units or barbs yet, so its time for some farmer gambit, and Amsterdam starts building its first settler.
Settler is complete in 5 turns, and is ready at 2630 BC. He travels northwards along the river to get the despot agri food bonus from founding on freshwater.
Still no sign of any hostile lifeforms, so another settler is trained.
2470 BC 1st settler finds a decent enough spot, and Rotterdam is found. Rotterdam is on coast, so it starts curragh.
2430 BC 2nd settler is ready, i'm afraid to send him into the dark areas, so he heads to settle the coast on top of the silks.
The Hague is found 2350 BC, and it starts building curragh also.

Amsterdam produces 4 workers in a row, to improve lands around it to nice 4 turn warrior/settler factory. When its done, the warrior/settler cycle starts and continues pretty long. a barracks is built after a while, to train veteran warriors instead of regulars.

After curraghs, the other two cities build their own workers, then few warriors, and Rotterdam starts prebuilding for a wonder. Hague produces few more warriors/curraghs/workers.

Research and Trading

As mentioned before, i started 100 % on writing, as soon as Amsterdam was founded, and, its discovered at 2310 BC. Total of 30 turns were spent researching it.
After that, its CoL 100 %, CoL is discovered at 1725 BC, after 15 turns of research.
100% research on Philosophy starts. By now i have contacted 3 other civs, none of them have writing yet, and i plan not to sell it until its only 3 turns left in my philosophy studies to minimize the chanse of anyone getting philosophy before me. Philosophy is done at 1575 BC, with only 6 turns research.
Republic is chosen as free tech, and revolting immediately when advisor asks it. I get 3 turn anarchy, and Dutch Republic is formed at 1500 BC.

Before the Republic, i managed to trade Writing and CoL around to the 3 civs i know, and get Bronze, Iron, Masonry, Maths, Wheel, Warrior Code, Cer. Burial and Mysticism for them.

After the Republic is formed, i continue my 100 % research to Currency, which is learned at 1275 BC, taking 9 turns of research. No good deals are availabe, and i have run out of money: while researching currency, i was running about -20 GPT every turn, losing all my cash reserves. Can only afford 40 % research anymore, so i'll go to Literature 40 %.

1250 BC i contact 4th and 5th civ. 4th civ seems to be a real powerhouse, having Map Making, Polytheism and HorseBack Riding. Also, the 3rd civ has learned Construction this turn !
5th civ is _very_ backwards and doesnt even have Alphabet yet !

Currency and Philosophy is traded to 3rd and 4th civs, netting me Map Making, Horseback Riding, Polytheism and Construction, and thus shooting me into the Middle Ages - at 1250 BC. Cant remember ever before entering Middle ages so early at C3C.

Other notes

Barbarians were no problem. I never saw a single barbarian out of their camps. First barbarian camp was found around 1500 BC or so. Only total 3 barb camps found on my continent so far, all on icy tundra. Lost 2 or 3 regular warriors while clearing the first camps.

Seems like playing the Predator really pays off research-wise, AI is researching at very fast pace.

I'm very worried about AI cascades taking out all useful wonders before my wonder prebuild city manages to complete anything useful. All AI's i know seem to be fixated on wonder building. Every AI civ is building about 3 or 4 wonders.


Here's a screenshot of my lands from 1225 BC, a turn after i entered Middle Ages. note: i painted every non-coastal tile black to avoid breaking spoiler rules The image quality unfortunately suffered greatly from re-sizing

 

[CarnDaWoods]

I played the Open game.

I am still new to GOTM (but not Civ) and as yet I am not disciplined enough to keep extensive notes, take screen shots, and/or save at certain key points. I have no idea where some of the screen shots come from, nor how people know exactly what they have got at 1000BC (without tediously counting). As for QSC positioning and the other scoring that is mentioned, I have no idea what people are talking about.

But I am learning, nearly everytime I read here. Even if it does not sink in at first, eventually a glimmer of understanding comes to light.

Anyway, I started building a road and moved the settler to the SE and built my first city. Built a curragh.

I tried the republic slingshot, but did not have CoL, so it failed.

I have always settled in 4000BC before, so moving even one square was a big change for me.

Unfortunately I circumnavigated my own island as a first priority, and then I got so busy I forgot to go looking for other civs.

I replayed the game, and settled on the hill above the cow (never heard of settler factory until a couple of weeks ago), and was amazed at fast I expanded.

Anyway, my real question is, can you play the old GOTM's with Conquest? And if so, do they all need additional files? I have no variants loaded yet (nothing except what came on the conquests CD, and what was in the 1.22 patch (up until I played CGOTM 1) I was completely unpatched, boy did I notice the difference.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Carn: Some gotms (I think up to gotm 16) can be played without additional units and stuff. They have to be played in vanilla Civ or (avilable only for some games) Play the world (comes with Conquest), however, and each game's announcement will state the needed patch for the games. If you want to play old gotms, I'd advice you to do the latest patch for vanilla Civ, and start with gotm1, Persia. This was also the first Succession gotm, so check out that forum for a few comparison plays.

Here's the link to the gotm site. You'll also find info on QSC etc. there.

Welcome to Civfanatics forums

 

[DJMGator13]

Gator Ramblings

A look at our opponents reveals that no one is a scientific civ, so no free techs.

4000BC - move worker W to explore. Sees nothing but hills and mountains and what appears to be 2 silks on the other side of mountains. No irrigation for the grass will be available until Electricity. Shields abound food is scarce. Move settler SE need both whales for food.

3950BC
Found AMSTERDAM set to Curragh / worker1 E
set research for WRIT in 50 @20%

3450BC
Cultural expansion have whales now & growth / Worker1 W
up sci to 90% WRIT in 29

3400BC
AMSTERDM curragh (SS Minnow) => curragh

3150BC
AMSTERDM curragh (HMS Bounty) => settler

2950BC
Lux to 10% / Sci still 90% +0gpt

2700BC
AMSTERDAM settler => settler
lux to 0 / sci to 100 WRIT in 16

2630BC
Contact with Civ2: 2 cities, 10gold up BW & CB down POT (no deals possible for BW)
TRADE: POT & 9 gold to Civ2 for CB

IBT to 2550BC – Civ2 learns WC

2550BC
settler founds ROTTERDAM set to warrior
Minnow (contact the Civ3)
Contact Civ3: 1 city, 10 gold, up BW & MAS down POT & CB
TRADE: POT to Civ3 for BW & 10 gold
sci to 90% WRIT still in 7

2510BC
switched AMSTERDM from settler to granary ( settler was due b/4 growth to 3)

IBT to 2390BC – CIV3 learns WHEEL

2360BC
ROTTERDAM warrior => temple
Minnow spies another border (CIV4)

2310BC
we learn WRITING set to CoL (almost went PHIL/MM route but I should be able to build about 18-20 without needing the other continent)

I’ve never declared a victory condition this early in a game before (especially a GOTM) but I think I may try a pre1500 Diplomatic. With 3 known trading partners and a decent size island to myself lets make a rush to REP and fill in my island, hopefully I can still grab some of the territory on the main continent also.
Bounty spies Ivory

Okay, the discovery of Ivory changes my mind on the research path lets go PHIL/MM (free)/CoL/REP.

CIV4: 1 city, 10 gold, up WHEEL, down CB & WRIT
TRADE: CB & 41gold to CIV4 for WHEEL

Lets hold on to WRIT for a few turns to get head start on PHIL.

2270BC
After thinking about the Ivory CIV2 looks to be too close to it, so I switched back to CoL. I had only researched it for 1 turn.

2190BC
Minnow sees potential coast across 4 squares
Adj sci to 100% CoL in 19

2110BC
Minnow ends turn on a sea tile – it’s a small island 1 tile island
Adj lux to 10 / sci to 90 CoL in 17

1910BC
AMSTERDAM granary => settler
Sci to 80% CoLin 14 (not 12)

1870BC
silks hooked up to capital / lux to 0 sci to 90 CoL in 11

IBT to 1750BC – CIV5 scout moves into view by Bounty

1750BC
contact CIV5: 5 cities 0gold, up MAS, WC, IW & MYST down WRIT
I’m still 8 from CoL too early to trade WRIT although CIV5 could be researching it

1725BC
AMSTERDAM grows to size 4 up Lux to 10% / Sci 90 CoL still in 7

1675BC
AMSTERDAM settler=> settler

1650BC
lux to 0 ( should have done last turn) CoL in 4 – still down 4 techs but up WRIT – don’t want to trade yet can I hold monopoly for 6-7 more turns?

1600BC
settler founds THE HAGUE set to warrior
Sci to 70% CoL in 2

Scouting by Bounty & Minnow looks like (censored) – I’m going to turn Minnow around and go back to those islands and try a suicide again, while Bounty completes mapping top of landmass

1550BC
learn CoL set to PHIL in 10 @ 90% (I still have monopoly on WRIT will trade soon)
ROTTERDAM temple => settler

1500BC
I’m 8 turns from PHIL time to trade WRIT
TRADE: WRIT to CIV2 for MYST, MAS & 6 gold
TRADE: WRIT & MYST to CIV3 for WC, IW & 20gold
TRADE: WC to CIV4 for 50gold
TRADE: WRIT to CIV5 for 50gold (CIV5 has MATH but I can’t work out a deal without trading CoL, MATH did not show up until after I traded for MAS)
I’m still up CoL on everyone.

1475BC
THE HAGUE warrior => worker

1450BC
AMSTERDAM settler=> settler

1400BC
ROTTERDAM changes build to warrior wastes 2 shields

IBT to 1375BC – CIV2 demands IW – I give it

1375BC
Sci to 80% PHIL still in 4

1350BC
THE HAGUE worker2=> archer

1300BC
Sci to 60% PHIL still in 1

1275BC
learn PHIL set to REP (get REP) set to POLY at 90% in 20 turns
REVOLT on prompt (only 2 turns of ANRCHY)
Minnow lost at sea
settler founds UTRECHT set to worker

1225BC
Become a REPUBLIC
POLY in 12 @70% +5gpt
switch Rotterdam to Colossus

1200BC
Lux to 10%

IBT – Bounty mutinied after attack from 1 of 2 Bgalleys – captain set adrift in lifeboat / CIV5 learn MapM

1175BC
AMSTERDAM settler=> galley (after trade)
TRADE: CoL & PHIL to CIV5 for MapM & 59gold (all their money)
TRADE: CoL to CIV2 for MATH & 5 gold (all their money)

1150BC
rush galley in Amsterdam / settler back to Amsterdam / warrior1 S

1125BC
AMSTERDANM galley => settler
lux to 0% (should have done 2 turns ago after settler)

IBT – CIV2 learns HBR

1100BC
TRADE: PHIL & MapM to CIV2 for HBR & 3 gold (all their money)
did this because CIV5 have both of these techs as well
change The Hague & Utrecht to settlers

1075BC
Settler founds GRONINGEN set to warrior
up Sci to 80% POLY in 5 (vrs. 6) +5gpt

1025BC
Need to pick up the tech pace
CIV3 down HBR, MATH, PHIL, CoL
Trade HBR to CIV3 for 8 gold (all their money)
CIV4 down HBR, MATH & WRIT
TRADE HBR & WRIT to CIV4 for 1 gold (all their money)
CIV2 is down just REP – no trade yet
CIV5 is down just REP – no trade yet
Hopefully 1 of them is working on Const for me.
Amsterdam hurry settler for 28 gold (need to take him to Iron island)

1000BC
AMSTERDAM settler => settler
Gift PHIL to both CIV3 & CIV4
settler loads onto Argo
Sci to 70% POLY still in 2

QSC Summary

Became a Republic in 1225BC

CITIES
AMSTERDAM founded 3950BC
ROTTERDM founded 2550BC
THE HAGUE founded 1600BC
UTRECHT founded 1275BC
GRONINGEN founded 1075

UNITS
1 settler / 2 workers / 3 warriors / 1 galley (lost 2 curragh)

CITY IMPROVEMENTS
1 Granary
1 Temple

TECHS
ALHPA 4000BCstarted with
POT 4000BC started with
CB 2630BC trade from CIV2
BW 2550BC trade from CIV3
WRIT 2310BC researched
WHEEL 2310BC trade from CIV4
CoL 1550BC researched
MAS 1500BC trade from CIV2
MYST 1500BC trade from CIV2
WC 1500BC from CIV3
IW 1500BC trade from CIV3
PHIL 1275BC researched
REP 1275BC free from PHIL
MapM 1175BC trade from CIV5
MATH 1175BC trade from CIV2
HBR 1100BC trade from CIV2
POLY –2 turns away from learning




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rest of AA Timeline

975BC gift CIV4 MATH, CoL & MapM / gift CIV3 MATH & CoL / now everyone is down just REP
950BC learn POLY set to CURR in 15 @70% (hopefully someone else will learn CONST for me)
IBT- CIV5 demand POLY I give it
925BC found EINDHOVEN
900BC found ARNHEM adj sci to 80% CURR in 9 +6gpt
800BC adj sci to 60% CURR in 8
775BC Argo survives and finds more land / sell POLY to CIV4 50g & CIV2 40g

750BC find CIV6: 9 cities, 1400 gold, down WRIT, MATH & more / sell WRIT to CIV6 for 140gold
730BC found MAASTRICHT / sci to 70% CURR in 4 (vrs 5)
710BC found HAARLEM / sci to 60% still in 3

IBT CIV6 has 94 gold sold some of my known techs to last unknown civ
690BC gift CIV3 POLY / sell CIV6 PHIL for 94gold / sci to 50% CURR still in 2
670BC sell CIV6 CoL for 51gold
650BC learn CURR set to CONST in 15 at70% (no one else learned it yet)
630BC sci to 80% CONST in 10 at –1gpt
IBT – CIV5 learned REP (not const)
610BC catch everyone (except CIV6) up on REP

550BC sci to 70% CONST in 7 (vrs 6)
530BC contact CIV7: 7 cities, 25 gold, down MATH & CoL / sell them MATH for 25 gold
IBT - CIV8 moves into view / CIV2 learns CONST (I’m still 4 turns away from it)

510BC contact CIV8: 9 cities, 37 gold, up MONARCHY, down WRIT & MATH / sell them WRIT for 37 gold
TRADE: CURR to CIV2 for CONST & 8 gold (all their money)
sell CIV5 CURR for 78gold (all their money)
TRADE: CURR to CIV6 for MONARCHY
gift CIV8 MATH, PHIL, CoL, MapM
gift CIV7 CoL, CURR, & MON
gift CIV5 MON
gift CIV3 MON & CURR

found HOLWERD

I reach the MA in 510BC and have contact with the whole world.

 

[ssharlow]

Once again, not a shot of finishing on time but still enjoying this and hoping to eke out a victory somewhere in mid-August.

With so many people moving to the cow - I'm curious what the thought process is. For me - its simple - there could be glowing arrows on the map saying "settle this way" and I still probably wouldn't move more than 1-3 spaces.

But for this game, where all the pregame betting was on a small island, use of seafaring, archipeligo, etc. Why isn't the "best" bet - settle quickly and get a ship out there. On a small landmass, you have time to settle without as much pressure from the AI and usually fewer barbs. If you are really alone - you can go light on the military for awhile as well. To me moving six spaces, then waiting to build a settler, move to the coast and build a ship doesn't make as much sense as get that ship exploring and meeting the AI. They can't get settlers or troops to you until much later but all the tech trades early on would seem more important than a few extra settlers?

I guess the issue is - what is better a tech deficit or a city deficit?

Anyway, just curious what the thought process is.

 

[smackster]

With so many people moving to the cow - I'm curious what the thought process is. For me - its simple - there could be glowing arrows on the map saying "settle this way" and I still probably wouldn't move more than 1-3 spaces.

It is all about food, and location. If you can see a food bonus or some breadcrumbs that might lead to a food bonus then move. If your location is not central (to your land block, or island) then also consider moving (even if you do have food, although I would have to be positive of equal or better food to move in that case). If you have neither food or location as in this game, then the decision to move should be easy.

I was one of those that did not move of course, so I'm saying this from experience. I took all the tech advantages of an early settle, and was probably one of the first to enter the Middle Ages because of this. But when it came to the crucial period of subjagating my enemies, my city infrastructure was way behind those that decided to move, and therefor my end result much worse.

There is a certain pre-game discussion going on right now, and the same arguments are aboud, with many people saying they will settle on the spot. I would suggest those that do will end up with lower scores. Of course I've been wrong before, well ok I'm usually wrong

smackster

 

[SirPleb]

I guess the issue is - what is better a tech deficit or a city deficit?

My feeling is "neither". I think that on almost any map the best thing is more food. With more food it will be possible to overtake and then surpass starts which initially have more of anything else.

Edit: smackster beat me to it As he says about the COTM03 pregame discussion, same thing there. Me, I'll move the worker to check for food and if moving inland from the coast gets more food I'll do it, the food is more important than early curraghs.

 

[denyd]

Moderator Action: Sorry Denyd. Anyone reading this thread before playing GOTM33 is not expecting to be spoiled for GOTM 33. Please restrict debate to the game in hand

 

[civ_steve]

IMO, I think smackster has headed too many soccer balls, SirPleb has been spoiled by the HOF competition and denyd has been locked up in that stasis pod too long!! Gozpel's worker, dreaming about finding cattle and then rudely being woken up, seems more real to me. (I'd like to know more about his tactics for rapid city growth!)

I agree that food bonuses are the key to fast growth and early control of the game. Finding them is the issue. Are there any nearby, and in which direction? Being agricultural, the Dutch only have to find a river to benefit from searching. But having 2 visible Whale spaces within reach seems about on par with moving 6 spaces and finding a river to found on; you can find the river later and Jump Palace to it pretty easily, meanwhile you're enjoying the use of the Whales. Only with the addition of the Cow does this move become considerably more powerful.

So what are the odds of that? Finding a river with Cow within 6 moves of your starting spot? I can think of two reasons for making these moves: 1.) this is a competition; finding a great bonus food source will give me an advantage even at the risk of a delayed start; 2.) this is a designed game; the level is a bit high for many of the entrants so the game designer will add a bonus food source nearby.

In the case of COTM2, moving the Dutch Settler is highly constrained and will lead you to the food bonus if you move at all; to me, moving in this case is depending on the good will of the game designer to provide a challenging but enjoyable game for most of the participants. Moderator Action: Please limit spoiler discussions in this thread to COTM 2

If you want to swing for the fences, look around for a nearby food bonus. If you find one great; if not, decide how long you'll look before giving up. Or, settle near the starting spot, send out scouts, find that food bonus, found a city there and Jump your Palace to it. This is not as fast or powerful as finding it in the first place, but you don't waste a lot of turns not finding it if it's not to be found.

 

[eldar]

Moderator Action: Deleted para. No spoiling discussion of other games in progress in this thread please

I was happy enough with my result from this game: it was a slow start, but I was expecting it, and the isolated start eventually played into my hands. Having built enough in one city, I was in a position where I could start the GL. I completed it, and ended up with a massive culture city that had the pick of Wonders.

I'm gradually getting used to these G/COTMs, despite the spiralling difficulty. One day I'll wonder what all the fuss is about (GOTM33 I ended up practically suiciding...). Until then, I'll live and learn.

Neil.

 

[Civgeek]

My feeling is "neither". I think that on almost any map the best thing is more food. With more food it will be possible to overtake and then surpass starts which initially have more of anything else.

Isn't it more a combination of bonus food and minimum shields to support it? At least 1.5 shields/citizen minimum. (6 shields at 4, 7/8 shields at 5). I can't see the advantage of moving to a food bonus if it drops your city production to 1 shield/citizen or worse.

 

[SirPleb]

Isn't it more a combination of bonus food and minimum shields to support it? At least 1.5 shields/citizen minimum. (6 shields at 4, 7/8 shields at 5). I can't see the advantage of moving to a food bonus if it drops your city production to 1 shield/citizen or worse.

I'd go for the food first, regardless of average shields/citizen. If the food bonus results in growing to a size where some unimproved tiles are being worked then it may be time to pump out a worker or settler.