COTM 09 Spoiler 2: Middle Ages or End of Game

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

1) They AI does build Curraghs. Many of them.
2) The AI does use Armies in C3C. The AI does not use MGLs to form Armies, thus they can never built the MilAc; and that is called a bug for good reasons.
3) If I'd commit a RoP rape, I wouldn't bother with splitting forces. I would place a pillager on any resource they have. Zero risk. The Diplo penalty is non-existant when you're about eliminitating the last Civs around.
4) Ship chaining has been around since Civ1. So has been reloading.
5) I was careful enough to not call those two issues 'cheating'. Read my post agin.
6) In which way do I ignore arguments more than the other side? I'm absolutely not alone with my opinion. The entire SG community sticks to that rules. Do you call us all ignorant?

Point is, I wasn't interesting in continuing the discussion (see the smilies in the above post). But your answer, while the general message is certainly justified by the sole fact both are allowed by the rules, and the endless discussion certainly can be considered annoying, is simply partially not correct.
End of submission.

 

[al_thor]

I finished this game with a Domination victory in 1798 AD (Firaxis 2501, Jason 5313), which I'm sure is quite late and low-scoring in comparison to many of the others that are much better than I, but I had a lot of fun with this map regardless.

Picking up at the start of the MA:

230 BC - Babylon gets Monotheism as his free tech Oh, well, I give him Republic and 20G for it.

110 BC - I am a Republic. Feudalism in 19 turns. Science at 60%, making +1 GPT.

10 BC - 49G from China for Literature.

30 AD - Hittites learn Feudalism.

130 AD - 13GPT, 130G from America for Monotheism.

300 AD - The Hittites finish the G-Lib. He now has the Pyramids and the G-Lib. I really want to take him down!

350 AD - Engineering in 1. Hittites already have it.

360 AD - 24GPT, 94G from America for Eng.
9GPT, 26G from Dutch for Mono.
Invention in 15. +16GPT.

370 AD - America has Chivalry. He will trade Chiv for Invention, but I'm not selling.

490 AD - 7GPT, 6G from China for Mono.

500 AD - 27GPT, 114G from Zulu for Invention (America will no longer give Chiv for it ). Hittites already know Invention.

510 AD - Now, THIS I found to be weird. 122G, Chivalry from America for Invention, whne he wouldn't even trade me even up for it just last turn!

530 AD - 9GPT, 52G from Celts for Chiv.

610 AD - 12 Galleys (full, of course) depart for Hittite land and I begin filling more.

650 AD - Only one of the 12 Galleys makes it - 2 spears in it. Lose another with 2 Berserks in it.

670 AD - 46GPT, 170G from America for Gunpowder. 40GPT, 160G from Celts for Gunpowder.

680 AD - Pilliage Hittite Iron. No big deal, he has 2 sources. We have no Saltpeter. He has 2 sources of that as well. Beautiful.

740 AD - Lose another 2 full Galleys. The 14 galleys make for a nice reef & refuge for the fish. Time to make peace with the hated Hittites.

760 AD - Hittites demand something or other. Tell him to hit the bricks. He declares. My hatred for him knows no bounds (I know, it's JUST a game).

900 AD - 84GPT, 230G from Celts for Banking. At his point, I am absolutely CRUSHING the AI in research. I'm in the process of building Magellan's and Smiths, hoping to trigger a GA. I have a monopoly on Econ, Nav, Physics.

1100 AD - The Celts learn Navigation. I sell them Physics for 139GPT 26G, WM. I get Iron, WM from Chins for Physics.

1200 AD - Hittites land a couple units on my 'continent'. Trigger GA with Berserker victory.

1210 AD - Dutch sign alliance against us with Hittites.
1. Alliance vs Dutch & Hittites with Zulu for Metalurgy.
2. Allinace vs Hittites, Wines, from Celts for Ivory, Gems, WM, 230G.

1230 AD - Smiths in 1 turn. Magellan's already complete.
1. 39GPT, 50G, WM from China for Econ
2. 21GPT, 15G, WM from Zulu for Econ
3. 200G from Celts for Econ
Military Tradition in 1 turn.

1240 AD - Theory of Gravity in 4. Making +202/turn. $6,626 in treasury. Many Knights and Pikes are being built. I will TAKE Saltpeter from the unsuspecting Babalonians.

1265 AD - Reach Industrial Age. I have no Saltpeter, so I will forestall my invasion of Babylon for 6 turns while I learn Nationalism in order to upgrade Pike to Rifle.

1295 AD - Nationalism. $1,260 to upgrade Pikes to Rifle.

1300 AD - Army leaves for Babylon (I'm still at war with Hittites. He is in government of FEUDALISM. Can't say as I've ever noticed an AI using this type of gov.) My army consists of 7 Gallions: 11 Knights, 11 Rifle, 6 Berserk. The oceanic disaster circa 620AD is still being talked about - some of these troops are descendants of those lost souls. Although I have assured them that these new ships are quite seaworthy, I did have to pay them a hefty signing bonus with promises of glorious riches should they be victorious.
Steam Power in 6.

1315 AD - Ellipi & Akkad fall to the sea-drunk horde. Saltpeter is secure. Alliance vs Hittites, Iron, 84GPT from China for Military Tradition. IIRC, he has no Horse, and would not be getting any Hittite city's anyway. Alliance vs Hittites, 94G, WM, from Celts for Magnetism.

1345 AD - 118GPT, 550G, Democracy, WM from China for Steam.

1375 AD - First leader is born. Rush the FP in Akkad.
1400 AD - 2nd Leader. Army of Cav's.
1425 AD - 3rd Leader. Another Cav Army.

1480 AD - China breaks Allegiance (the dirty little rat). I lose my Iron, and I'm not done Railing yet! Time to take out the Zulu, as they not only have Iron, they have some really tasty looking Spices.

1485 Zimbabwe, Intombe, Bapedi captured.
1490 Ulundi captured. Zulu gone. Take Philadelphia from Hittites. America was divided up between Celts and Hittites long ago.

1560 Alliance vs Hittites, Wines, Fascism, 86GPT, 110G from Celts for Electricity, Gems. Alliance vs Hittites, 18GPT, 100G from Chins for Electricity, Spices. Theroy of Evolution complete in 4 turns.

1625 158GPT, 100G, Wm from Celts for Corporation.

1635 Hattusas captured. Pyramids & Sistine are mine.

1645 Kadesh & Ugarit captured. Sun Tzu's is mine.

That's pretty much it. China takes some of the former American cities from the Hittites and they are gone. I later declare on China and ally with the Celts. I take all of the American cities. Domination soon follows.

 

[al_thor]

Criticisms, comments, pointers are most welcome on my summary-post above. Magellan's didn't help me that much, as I couldn't build the units fast enough to keep my Galleons full, so it took a while for me to muster the units that I thought would be necessary to properly invade the Hittites. The 2 Cav Armies were certainly indespensable in this endeavor.
Try as I might, I had 3 or 4 Elite Berserkers that I just could not get promoted to Leaders. No big deal, but I always think that it is a nice touch to have some Elite* UU's based in prominant cities.

 

[Renata]

I do find the endless discussion annoying -- if anyone wants to raise another rules discussion in a separate thread, feel free (after this game is over would be best if you want to use this game as an example), but it isn't accomplishing anything here except to give me agita.

Renata

 

[al_thor]

Ranata -
Thanks for the awesome map! I, for one, enjoyed the game immensly. I used the dreaded 'ship chaining', but it really didn't help me that much, as I had Magellan's before-hand, so I could reach the other continent in 2 turns.
I'm not sure why anyone gets worked-up about the above mentioned rules unless they are ultra-competitive and are not getting the trophies, ribbons, etc and feel slighted by other players' use of the 'exploits'. No big deal to me, I just enjoy the games for what they are - a challenge - and I'm never dissappointed.
Hopefully, we will see more maps from your 'devious' mind in the near future.

 

[Aeson]

1) They AI does build Curraghs. Many of them.

Please show an example of the AI building a Curragh on a difficulty other than Sid. (and I suppose I should also rule out the Zeus Curraghs from an earlier COTM...)

2) The AI does use Armies in C3C. The AI does not use MGLs to form Armies, thus they can never built the MilAc; and that is called a bug for good reasons.

I said:

"The AI doesn't create Armies in C3C"

You imply I said the AI doesn't use Armies, which I did not say.

But since you want to (try to) be pendantic instead of address the issue, I will give more examples of things the AI doesn't do and ask if that means they are exploits if the player does.

1. Use non-automated Workers. Exploit or not?
2. Use the Luxury slider to control happiness problems. Exploit or not?
3. Use the Science slider to minimize wasted beakers on a tech. Exploit or not?
4. Micromanage laborers in a city. Exploit or not?
5. Leave unthreatened cities undefended. Exploit or not?
6. Not revolt the first turn you get a new government prefered to the current one. Exploit or not?
7. Use land bombardment units offensively. Exploit or not?
8. Explore with units manually instead of hitting e. Exploit or not?
9. Attack armies or other very strong units when at high health. Exploit or not?
10. Use more than 2 garrisons per city. Exploit or not?

More available if necessary to prove the point...

3) If I'd commit a RoP rape, I wouldn't bother with splitting forces. I would place a pillager on any resource they have. Zero risk. The Diplo penalty is non-existant when you're about eliminitating the last Civs around.

Then you wouldn't get much out of the ROP rape. Disconnecting AI resources once you are hitting them is only important if your invasion is inept. Pillaging resources in a well run invasion is just pillaging your own resources, and in any case can be done many ways not requiring a ROP rape.

4) Ship chaining has been around since Civ1. So has been reloading.

Your analogy is meaningless. These exist as possible behavior for different reasons.

Ship chaining is easily programmed out. When a unit moves, if it is transporting units set movement of units transported to 0.

Reloading is impossible to program out without removing the ability to save or load games.

5) I was careful enough to not call those two issues 'cheating'. Read my post agin.

"It obviously wasn't possible to reach results anywhere near those using the exploits with not such a wicked understanding of cheating." - Doc T

Sounds like you are saying these results here require a wicked understanding of cheating. As you are also saying that these games require the gamebreaking exploits of ship chaining and RoP rape, it sounds like you are saying ship chaining and RoP rape are cheating.

If that's not what you mean, ok. No problem then.

6) In which way do I ignore arguments more than the other side? I'm absolutely not alone with my opinion. The entire SG community sticks to that rules. Do you call us all ignorant?

I didn't say "more than the other side", I haven't mentioned anyone else. It was an absolute statement about you. You asked why these rulings are made after the reasoning for the rulings has already been stated. You asked what the drawbacks of RoP rape were when I had already posted them. That is what I mean by "ignoring". Ignoring does not mean ignorant.

Point is, I wasn't interesting in continuing the discussion (see the smilies in the above post). But your answer, while the general message is certainly justified by the sole fact both are allowed by the rules, and the endless discussion certainly can be considered annoying, is simply partially not correct.

Putting smilies in your post doesn't mean you automatically get the last word in a discussion. You made statements I felt were inaccurate and so I addressed them. If you don't want to continue the discussion it's very easy, don't post. If you post, expect the discussion about what you post to continue.

 

[Aeson]

I must agree with this. I can't believe how early some people made contact.

The odds of sinking for a Seafaring ship is 25%. The crossing can be made with only 4 at risk turns with a Curragh.

On the first turn your Curragh is 75% to not sink.
75% of the time you have a Curragh on turn 2.
56% of the time you have a Curragh on turn 3.
42% of the time you have a Curragh on turn 4.
31.6% of the time your Curragh makes it across.

 

[shortguy]

Open

I didn't do a lot in my game. After my AA pseudo-war I wasn't at war again. In fact, I spent most of the MA with no ground troops at all. I entered the IA sometime in the 700's (I think). Research was slow, as there wasn't much land to be had. The other continent spent the late MA and entire IA at war. The Zulu were destroyed sometime in the late MA, and the Chinese were about to go at the end. I didn't have good shield production, but the map and cheap harbors made for decent gold potential. After sitting out the wars (I sent explorers over to watch the war and bombed a few neutral roads in frustration) I finally won Diplomatically, 5-2, in 1730. Jason 4991.

EDIT: One thing that I found interesting was that the AI's had good amounts of free GPT earlier than I remember (mid MA). Is that a peculiarity of the map, or have I not played enough Monarch+?

EDIT2: Apparently, the subjugated Zulu voted for me! Fixed.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Renata -
Thanks for the awesome map! I, for one, enjoyed the game immensly.

Just feel urged to agree with this. This certainly is a map I absolutely love, and I'd also love to have more of those 'extreme' maps.

 

[al_thor]

My first contact was Hittites in 1830BC. How does this compare to othes? IIRC, I lost 4 Curroughs before being successful in contact. Not good luck according to the odds quoted above. Also, I made it to 'navigable' waters in 2030BC (I believe it was Chinese 'territory', although no borders were visible. My next contact didn't come until 1725 (Dutch) and then again at 1600 (Babylon, who already knew Writing). At first, I was a little shocked by the tech-pace of the AI, but then, their land was MUCH more fertile (sacred cows, flood plains, and golden wheat seemed to abound).

 

[al_thor]

Checking my notes, in 2030BC I SIGHTED LAND, not 'made it to navigable waters'.

If you read my summary above, you will see that ONLY 1 of 14 GALLEYS MAKE IT ACROSS. How's THAT for bad luck? Those galley's were full of Spear, Berserk, and Horse. Cost me a fortune.

 

[MiniMe]

Middle Ages start in 550BB. I grant Babylon to MA and they get monotheism as free tech and we trade for it breaking the bank. We offer monopoly republic + monarchy but need to an additional 20gpt before they accept. We start theology.

Finish SoZ in 490BC and the GL in 350BC and my golden age start. Think that is a good thing since research is extremely sluggish.

We discover theology in 210BC and trade it around for small change. We discover Education in 70BC. We trade it around for some gpt and feudalism and engineering.

We discover astronomy in 90AD and trade it to babylon for 37 gpt. Too sweet a deal to pass on. In 130AD we trade astronomy to china for chivalry. I switch a prebuild over to knights templar and get it in 150AD.

We discover navigation in 250AD and trade for invention in 260AD. It went quicker than I thought, so I have only 2 archers to upgrade, and my prebuild to leonardo is far from ready! So I drop leonardo, rush a couple of additional berserks and take my caravels for a spin including some ACs. I continue research towards military tradition.

We are in place to declare on the chinese in 320AD and ally celts and americans against them. They are history in 410AD. That year I also got a leader creating any army. Intend to fill it up with crusaders.

I declare on hittites in 410AD, in hope they havent been able to upgrade their pikes to muskets. But they have. Anyways I take their salt city. I rally most other civs on them as well. War drags out, dont have a lot of forces. The hittites are gone in 530AD.

I declare on the celts in 480AD with my new crusader army, and make global alliance against them. I take 3 cities rather easily. But from there on it gets more difficult. I have to make peace to regroup. I get another leader and in 550AD he creates a cavalry army.

I am getting a little lazy with comments here. Being totally immersed in the game, everything moves rather quickly. I start sending forces also against the dutch and the zulu. Americans and Zulu are both very much at war and killing them off is quick. Babylon is last to disappear giving me a conquest victory in 770AD.

I was aming for domination but I was not quick enough to fill in with settlers and temples. When taking the last babylon city I was over domination limit. But spotted a galley off the cost of my mainland and decided that was surely where their settler was. I removed a couple of small cities to avoid domination and killed galley off next turn for conquest.

One mistake I made was not to have a lot of forces ready when astronomy was available. I was too focused on berserkers. I did not think about the fact that horses/knights/cavs was actually the way to win the game quickly.
That being said, in the end I used a rather wide combination of arms. Having SoZ and knights templar was a nice advantage. AC were perfect against china who only had spears. Even against fortified pikes they did their duty thanks to extra hitpoint. Killing off stray knights is also something they can do. I got 3 leaders from AC (plus one from berserk) and first one created a crusader army that was the only reason why I could take on the celts that had lots of knights and some well fortified cities on hills.

 

[Darkness]

Predator, barbarians fixed.

I entered the MA in 590 BC. Traded republic to the Babs for monotheism. Then feudalism, followed by beeline to navigation, using Mausoleum and SunTzu's to trigger my GA. Building aquaducts and libraries to speed up research. Then barracks.
After I got navigation I made an error which cost me a chance at an early win. I decided to go for MT, instead of chivalry (for two reasons: I had estimated the AI to be far stonger than it really was, as there had been only one minor war on the island, so the AI had been able to grow stronger uninterrupted, and I also wanted to play with berserks, after doing a cavalry-driven domination win in the other Vikings game, GOTM22). So my invasion started 20 turns later (researching 6 techs that were not neccessary, instead of chivalry). I built a mixed invasion fleet of berserks (18) and horseman (12), and I invaded the Hittites, which got me saltpeter, so I upgraded to cavs (built Leo's on homeland). Hittites died quickly, next up I took all China's coastal towns with a second wave of berserks and invaded the Netherlands with my first force, which had cavalries added to it all the time. The homeland kept supplying these, as well as the occasional berserk. I basically circled the entire horseshoe shaped continent clockwise, with berserk-filled ships along the coastlines and cavalry (and later cavalry-armies) taking the landlocked AI towns. These forces met the forces conquering China (which went slow, 'cause there were very few cavalries there (2)) on the border of China and the Celts for a conquest win in 960 AD.
Louzy date of course, but that's mostly due to deciding to reseaarch MT instead of chivalry. If I'd done chivalry, it'd probably been more like conquest in 700-750AD...

Loved the map, Renata


@Planetfall: I really fail to understand why you say the age of Berserk usefulness was past before people could use it, due to the map. The Berserk is effective until the start of the IA, when rifleman appear. When the human player gets navigation and invention the AI is nowhere near nationalism, so the Berserk can be used to good effect in this game.

 

[Don Vito]

The odds of sinking for a Seafaring ship is 25%. On the first turn your Curragh is 75% to not sink.

This is why i sent 4 curraghs to explore at the same turn. One of them survived. Happened around 1600 BC.

 

[Don Vito]

Ranata -
Thanks for the awesome map! I, for one, enjoyed the game immensly.

Hopefully, we will see more maps from your 'devious' mind in the near future.

I couldnt agree more

Saw someone complaining in the first spoiler about "not being able to use Berserks in time"

I think thats just lack of skill (no offense to that player), because i had no problems researching first the techs that made crossing the ocean safe -> then trading them to invention from AI -> then attack them with Berserks.

Most AI's still had Spearmen to defend their coastal cities when i attacked. How's that not being able to use Berserks properly

And even against Rifles, Berserks would be effective 6 attack vs. 6 def = not that bad. Muskets/Pikes/SwissMerc can be taken easily with Berserks, just use enough of them..

 

[MiniMe]

Domination victory in 510AD.

I admire your focus on victory condition I started war on alien continent 1 turn after you (in 310AD) but finished 260 years after you. I dwabbled with aqueducts, universities and marketplaces, while you prepared an iron fist invasion, dropping nice but unnecessary berserks and cavalry.

 

[Ronald]

I don't want to start a discussion whether RoP rape should be banned or not, I don't mind the current ruling at all. I only want to state my opinion how powerful this exploit is:

RoP rape carries the diplomatic hit but that isn't the only cost/risk involved. To use it effectively you have to split up your forces into smaller groups, send some of those groups past targets that could have been hit earlier with more force, and because the groups are smaller, the odds are greater that a particular target will fail to be taken, leaving that portion of your attack force exposed, damaged, and in enemy territory. The only way to safely compensate for this is to wait to attack until you have more units than necessary to have started otherwise. Generally ROP rape is only going to speed things up in rough terrain where the AI has a good road network. In some cases (ie. mobile units, tech superiority, nice flat land) it will slow things down, and sometimes can cause disaster (failing to take multiple targets and losing a good portion of your forces to counterattacks).

I partly disagree with the points made above. They are valid at the start of the warfare. The forces are not big enough to profit from RoP rape and it is quicker to start conventionally.
It is completely different when only 2 or three opponents are left. By then I usually have an overwhelming force.
Making a RoP agreement with all 3 is extremely powerful. It takes about 2 turns to bring your troops in position, one turn to elimate this civ. 1 turn to heal and repeat with next. No downside, no risk, just extremely unethical (I very rarely use it, it seems so unfair to me).

Ronald

 

[Dynamic]

I sent a few Settlers across the C channel to settle in gaps, and also rushed a couple Settlers and a Galley back on the home island to claim the little island to the S. I took the last American city in 440AD. Took the last Babylonian city, last Dutch city, and a Celtic city in 490AD, triggering Domination in 500AD with a Jason of 11190.

----------------

Playing with the same attention (or rather lack thereof) to detail, I doubt I could have broken 1000AD using Navigation and Knights/Beserks/Cavalry. Shouldn't have scored more than 8000 Jason given what I put into it IMO. So that's why I say it made a difference of around 50 turns and 3k Jason. I'm not sure what the difference would be at the high end, but probably not quite as much. To have this type of game score and finish better than well-played games would definitely not be fair.

I think you are too humble in this opinion. In this game player with your experience could win by Domination around 700AD with Jason 10,5K without serious thinking, by reflex.

You finished 1 turn before me but with much more points (I got 11008 Jason) because you started war (and captured territory) earlier. You method makes the better result then classic style but the difference in 200-700 points is not too much as you predicted. I'm not absolutely sure in excluding this exploit. Practical usage of this exploit is very difficult and only strong player can do this. But the strong player can win and other ways.

In you game I admire by your complete idea and the way to win.
For example, I even haven't this in my mind.

 

[Dynamic]

I admire your focus on victory condition I started war on alien continent 1 turn after you (in 310AD) but finished 260 years after you. I dwabbled with aqueducts, universities and marketplaces, while you prepared an iron fist invasion, dropping nice but unnecessary berserks and cavalry.

Note, you got conquest victory. My conquest could be after 3-5 turns because at the end of game I have many units with bad health and China's territory isn't flat.
In this game all AI are placed on the one mini-pangeia and have enough good roads network. So movement is easy. Using RoP rape makes Domination very fast. I don't think this is exploit. It's benefit of this victory type. Note, Domination has earliest best date and is scored lower then other types.

In 2 previous games I went to Diplo and Space so couldn't use RoP abuse. In this game I freed my mind and got a good relax.

 

[Redbad]

Middle ages, pursueing 20K

I arrived in the Middle Ages in 110AD having 1576 culture in Trondheim with an increase of 29 per turn.
Trondheim finished the G-Light in 230 which brought me a Golden Age.
So, with GA, I'm in a hurry to build the next available culture structures: cathedral and Sistine Chapel. The Babs have monotheism and are willing to sell it for 168 gold and 52 coins per turn. Hammi is a decent chap but unfortunally I can't spare the change. So I have to dow him (I'm sure he'll understand ...eventually).

In 270 a lonely settler gets killed by barbs, while my AC are parading the boulevards of Trondheim, riding their thouroughbreds and waring their shiny armour. I have to shape up and keep concentrated.

In 280 the cathedral is build, now culture 1987 +43

In 370 we research theology and think it's time for some mischief.
It's time to make foreign policy a little bit more exciting in the horseshoe E.U.:
380 embassy with Zulu and ma him against Babs
390 embassy with America and ma him against Babs
400 embassy with China, dow on Celts and ma Mao against Celts
410 embassy with Dutch, dow on Hittites and ma Bill against Babs and Hittites.

440 Golden Age ends
450 Sistine Chapel: 2724 +49
580 Knight's Templar: 3363 +51
620 University: 3571 +55

630 start revollution towards republic
910 one of my cities gets Pompei'd, only ashes remain
950 Copernicus: 5310 +65
1140 Shakespeare: 6553 +73

1250 (approx.) Industrial Age

So far 20K seems to be on schedule. But I didn't do any real warmongering. And now nobody finds me scary, only ugly. But my cozy little island is nearly sinking under the weight of all the beautiful structures build in Trondheim. And by night all the beautiful WLTKD- and Vulcano-fireworks light the skies.
(Being Dutch myself I know how to make a small country look big).