COTM 09 Spoiler 2: Middle Ages or End of Game

[Redbad]

370 AD - America has Chivalry. He will trade Chiv for Invention, but I'm not selling.

490 AD - 7GPT, 6G from China for Mono.

500 AD - 27GPT, 114G from Zulu for Invention (America will no longer give Chiv for it ). Hittites already know Invention.

510 AD - Now, THIS I found to be weird. 122G, Chivalry from America for Invention, whne he wouldn't even trade me even up for it just last turn!

The worth of a certain tech for a certain AI is related to the amount of beakers that that AI has to put into science to research it. So a tech which requires more beakers to research is worth more. But the amount of beakers is not a fixed amount.
Firstly a civ can be researching that tech himself, which will cause the tech to become less valuable to him over time.
Secondly the knowledge of a tech can be spread over more civs. The more civs know a tech the less beakers it requires to research.

The second happened in your situation.
In 370 you knew invention and America knew chivalry. A deal could be made.
In 500 invention was also known by Zulu and Hittites. This will decrease the number of beakers to research it for America substantially. And maybe America even is researching it himself. So now a deal can't be made.
In 510 I suspect one or more AIs got knowledge of chivalry, thus decreasing it's value. And a deal can be made again.

BTW. the above is not always as apparent: sometimes the price you get for a tech is not the value it has for an AI, but simply the most that AI can offer you. In the latter situation selling a tech to another AI will have seemingly no effect on the price.

 

[Bezhukov]

>31.6% of the time your Curragh makes it across.

This is assuming one knows which direction to head.



Perhaps those of us who were not so fortunate in our guesses just refrained from posting our results...

 

[Redbad]

I was even more fortunate with my curragh then it looks at first sight. I build three of them. The first went, after exploring the island, due north. I studied Renata's twisted way of thinking and I was completely certain that there would be land due north. It sank atfter the second turn at sea.
The second curragh didn't even make it to open waters. It was sunk by a barb galley.
The third one headed due west and survied the 4 turns at sea and then mapped the complete horseshoe, on the inside and outside. It sank at sea trying to sail back to its place of birth.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I sent my initial Curraghs NW and NE after charting our island, since that would be where I expect the map generator to put a landmass...both survived several turns in the Ocean, to no avail. So it is pretty nonsense to come up with probabilites to survive - it needs plain simply luck before, for choosing the direction.

 

[LKendter]

I had the same problem with choosing the wrong direction. My initial ships went north. I surivived plenty of turns to find nothing but ocean...

 

[Aeson]

If/When your Curraghs sink is luck, and those are the odds. I don't buy that going the "right" way is luck though because you should be going all ways until you find what you're looking for. I sent 2 W, 1 N, 3 E. It could have just as easily been different based on which ships sank when, but the key is to keep building ships and sending them in intelligent directions until the desired crossing(s) are made. Given the payoff in this situation, the investment will usually be minimal even if you get unlucky.

Sending all your ships the same way into the dark is inefficient. Many of the surviving turns end up not uncovering as much as they could, sometimes not anything all because it's already uncovered. The only time to send a second suicide ship along the same path is if you've spotted something and didn't reach it.

NE, NW, SE, or SW are less efficient because in the same number of moves you can first go N or S and then E or W (or vice versa), uncovering more area per turn (5 tiles per cardinal movement compared to 3 otherwise) and ending up in the same spot. So if your best guess is land X tiles NW, first go X/2 tiles N or W, then X/2 tiles the other way around.

Whatever the map generator might do wasn't really a consideration because it was billed as an abnormal map. For games where it is an issue though, the narrowest crossings on random maps tend to be cardinal directions. You can miss going cardinal, and you can miss if you dont, so try the likely narrowest as then you can check non-cardinal still (or continue cardinal), getting there in the same amount of moves anyways.

 

[Drugged_Unholy]

The Viking hordes entered the Middle Ages with a reputation destroyed; they had been driven from the new world by the evil Celts, unable to bring their mighty warriors across the seas to defend our rightful land. They were a broken civilisation, trapped in the wasteland with no resources. Their archers and spearman were no match for swords and shields. Ragnar launched an inquiry into the failures; he asked the captains of his fleet why so many ships had sunk whilst attempting to carry reinforcements. The reply said it all:

“uh….well boss, we thought we’d just lie in our boats and let the wind do the work, but the ships were falling apart”.

Ragnar sighed as he rapidly concluded that his people were not true Vikings, they were backward in their ways and their equipment was shoddy. Clearly revenge was going to be a long way off. But all was not lost, for he had a plan. He would spend the middle ages focusing on improving what he had, he would develop an economy worthy of the name, and give his people knowledge. He immediately sacked his government and allowed the people to have a revolution, bringing in a new Viking Republic. His towns were ordered to build marketplaces and then Libraries. Meanwhile he took his new found wealth and gave it to the other civilisations, in return they would teach his people new ways of doing things, and most importantly, better ways of sailing – no longer would his sailors just sail where the wind blows.

The strategy worked, his people started to catch up, and his towns became cities. A financial system started to develop, and the first universities sprung up. Music theory was discovered and the origins of Viking Metal were to be developed. The Vikings were still backwards militarily, but were able to produce a few units ready to go to the new world. They set sail, but this time they would show patience and wait for an opportunity to destroy a weak civilisation.

The new world by this time had been torn apart by centuries of warfare, funded by the banks of Scandinavia as the warring factions sold their knowledge to fund their wars. The Babylonians had been the first casualties after a long war with the Hittites. The Zulu were now facing extinction, and down to a couple of coastal cities, the Viking longboats were sighted off shore….

Ragnar ordered his men into action, and as the Vikings entered the Industrial age the town of Zimbabwe fell to a Berserker. They had entered their Golden age.

 

[shortguy]

I had the same problem with choosing the wrong direction. My initial ships went north. I surivived plenty of turns to find nothing but ocean...

I sent one north; seeing nothing, I sent it west. It must have lasted 6-7 turns before it sank.

I got tantalizingly close with another one; in fact, I was able to contact the Netherlands with it, but it sank before I could get around to the others.

 

[Più Freddo]

This is why i sent 4 curraghs to explore at the same turn. One of them survived. Happened around 1600 BC.

Sorry, sending more ships in a stack does not improve the odds of surviving. Rather, having ships wait for the others to be completed delays the potential earlies date of contact. <edit>Also, sending the ships in different directions more tiles can be discovered</edit>

Going on building more ships in parallel and after the first one has been dispatched is of course wise given the probabilities of success. If you build the second ship only after the first has sunk, then you lose time.

If the threat to the ships is attacks from AI ships, be it civilized or barbarian, then it makes sense to keep in stacks, as the AI does not use stacks at sea.

 

[Offa]

I think all the talk of probabilities for curraghs to survive is misplaced for this game. Curraghs are cheap (compared with galleys) so it is not too painful to send lots out. In particular, in this game the benefits of very early contact weren't that great compared with other games (eg gotm38).

I do think the double attack barb galleys worked unfairly as they ended up doubly penalizing players who had bad luck with early curraghs. My first curragh was very lucky, and so I had full contacts before any of the barb galleys started. The first one I met killed my curragh. It must have been very frustrating for players to get across with a late curragh, just to be killed by a barb.

 

[Offa]

It is completely different when only 2 or three opponents are left. By then I usually have an overwhelming force.
Making a RoP agreement with all 3 is extremely powerful. It takes about 2 turns to bring your troops in position, one turn to elimate this civ. 1 turn to heal and repeat with next. No downside, no risk, just extremely unethical (I very rarely use it, it seems so unfair to me).

Ronald

I agree with this, apart for the bit about it being unethical. I think ROP rape should be banned, but until it is, it isn't unethical. It's a bit like caravan rehoming in civ2, distasteful but (until recently) allowed.

 

[planetfall]

Ok, this COGM is an extension of last COGM. Got the idea now.

Forgetting all the tactical decisions, I need help understanding how you solved the Davey Jones problem. Questions:

1. What did you use as transport method across the expanse?
-- ship chaining
-- galley shipping
-- caravel shipping
-- other

2. Why did you choose the above method?

3. How successful were you, i.e. about how many losses did you take every 2 turns?

4. What level of defenders did you meet on the other side?

5. Did you build off bezerkers, or use other units for offense?


Thank you for your ideas.

PF

 

[Tubby Rower]

After I got Invention, I guess either my GLH was very influential or I was extremely lucky. I sent galley after galley of Beserks over to the continent and only lost two or three. This is a summary of my Middle Ages...

Hittites invited me into a war with the Dutch, I decided on going since they couldn't get to me. My Beserks took one city then it flipped back. I tried to take it back but my beserks couldn't do anything. So I got peace.

First serious target was the Zulus. Wiped them out pretty easily with military alliances with the Celts & Babylon.

Next target was America which I got the Hittites, Celts, & Babylon involved in. Celts razed a couple cities, Hittites took 3 and I got the remainder (~7 cities).

Then I went after Babylon. I think that I got the Hittites involved. They took 2 cities and I got the other 7.

I still was shuttling over units from my starting island.

I tried taking on the Dutch again but those mercenaries are tough nuts to crack...So I sued for peace again. (they only had 4 or 5 cities).

I was concerned about the Hittites, but it turns out that the Celts my long time friend turn on me and started a war with me. Luckily I had a MPP with both the Hittites and Chinese.

I can't remember when I did the palace jump to Zimbabwe but I know it was too late. A lot of unproductive turns took place that could have been better.

The war with the Celts lasted into the IA so I'll stop here.

 

[Ronald]

Questions:

1. What did you use as transport method across the expanse?
-- ship chaining
-- galley shipping
-- caravel shipping
-- other

2. Why did you choose the above method?

3. How successful were you, i.e. about how many losses did you take every 2 turns?

4. What level of defenders did you meet on the other side?

5. Did you build off bezerkers, or use other units for offense?


Thank you for your ideas.

PF

1) Caravel shipping
2) only safe way to get across
3) not sure what you mean, if you mean ship losses: none
4) spearmen, pikemen and musketmen
5) Started with bezerkers, added cavalry as soon it was available. most coastal towns were conquered by bezerkers, inland cities by cavalry

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

1) Heading for Navigation. Got it only one turn after the AI got Invention.
2) With my capital on 20k duty, I had about 2 productive cities, would have never risked any Berserks.
3) n/a
4) Muskets (except America, no Saltpetre), Swissies.
5) I wanted Berserks mainly for leaderfishing. That works great for the most time (since they can simply heal aboard the Caravel in neutra waters, no city needed), but here, I didn't even get an elite promotion. Later, I overran most of the continent with Cavs.

 

[WillowBrook]

100k Culture Attempt
(barbs fixed)

I enter the MA in 610 BC, but keep the tech pace slow, and no one enters the IA until 1275; I enter the next turn.

Major mistakes (as far as I can tell)
1. I build libraries rather than archers while headed to invention, making my invasion of the mainland quite slow.
2. I don't foment wars between the AI, and they like each other too much. The Celts do eventually take out the Zulu, and they fought the Chinese for a while, but there has been little other warfare between them.
3. I build my only wonder in Trondheim even though I know I'll have to do a palace jump.
4. I attack civs without enough troops to finish them off, dragging things out way too long.

Research
I head straight for invention, and as I get the great library in 110 AD (after the Dutch annoyingly built the Lighthouse in 530 BC), I continue up the lower branch of the tree at a moderate pace.

Wars
First Dutch War
I want the lighthouse. So I ship-chain eight BZ's across and capture Amsterdam (on the southern coast) in 410 AD and start my GA. But I don't have a fast enough supply of troops to completely take them out, and make peace for their town on the Chinese coast in 510 (the Celts declare and take it from me - the rest of that war is phony). I face only spears. I also get my first leader and form an army that dies in the next war.

First Hittite War
Then I declare on the Hittites in 560 and take all but three cities (now facing pikes) before making peace for their town on the Chinese coast in 750. I give the town to the Chinese. In the mean time, Amsterdam flips and I carelessly lose galleys and troops in seas.

Second Dutch War
I declare in 910, take back Amsterdam immediately, but don't get Utrecht until 980. THe Dutch are gone.

Second Hittite War
I plan this one better, declaring in 1000 and taking their last city in 1020. I get Sun Tzu's as well.

(I jump my palace to former Dutch lands in 1160)

First Babylonian War
The Babs are to powerful, and pumping out culture disconcertingly fast. So I declare in 1200 and take caravels full of BZ's to two big coastal cities. I burn them to the ground (including the newly built Magellens). I get a leader I turn into an army. In 1240, I burn another big city to the ground, get my third leader, and make peace.

In 1280, I get magnetism and enter the IA two turns after the Babs. Once this peace is up, I plan to invade with a pile of cavalry, two cavalry armies, and let my remaining BZ's die in a blaze of glory. I'm afraid they'll get nationalism before the peace treaty is up, but we'll see. (I only just got to this point.)

Culture
The Babs still have more than me, but they'll be gone before the end of the game. The Celts and Americans have almost as much as me, so I may have to at least cripple them, if not take them out to ensure I have twice theirs by the time I reach 100k. And Entremont has the pyramids. Once the Babs are gone, I'll fill their land with towns, and I'm going to try Communism, which I'll research next after nationalism.

 

[juballs2001]

uummm, all i remember is i won via diplomacy in the industrial ages/modern age, dont know what year it is, i think it is pre 1200AD , not really sure cause i dont remember

 

[Drugged_Unholy]

1. Suicide Galleys, and praying for luck.
2. Best available method at the time
3. Not very, couldn't bring reinforcements to the front line. Only about 1/4 got through.
4. Spearmen at the time, made no subsequent attempts at a crossing until end of MA.
5. No.

 

[Renata]

@ Juballs --

This thread is for discussing events that took place in the middle ages, not for discussing what happened in the industrial or modern age, although obviously no spoilers were in what you said. I realize the thread title is a bit ambiguous; I'll try to do better next time.

Also, for future reference, you shouldn't be posting about "end of game" until you have submitted your save, and I don't see yours yet in the list. Let one of the staff know if you have any trouble uploading.

Thanks,
Renata

 

[Gato Loco]

Middle Ages:


Preliminary settlement – As mentioned in the first spoiler, I had begun ship-chaining archers at the end of the ancient age, thanks to the lighthouse. After razing Shanghai, I planned to found a city in its place to secure a source of iron, but the Celts beat me to it. Then the Celts foolishly declared war and I managed to take the city with my first shipment of Ancient Cavalry. From this point on, I keep shipping archers and ancient cavalry to Burdigala and its newly founded sister city Alesund to prepare for war.

Monarchy – I establish a monarchy in 320 AD, quite late but I had to trade for the tech and everybody was slow researching it.

Wars – Given the circumstances, aiming for domination is a foregone conclusion. Culture, diplomacy, or spaceship(!) wins would take way too long with this kind of start and this kind of civ. The mainland is dominated by two major powers, the technologically advanced Celts and the militarily advanced Dutch. The Dutch won the ancient age world war and took a good number of Babylonian, Zulu, and Hittite cities while the Celts stayed out of the war and used the Agricultural trait to build up a powerful empire. I can’t take either of these two juggernauts while still ship-chaining, and starting a war between them would lead to one emerging victorious and becoming unstoppable. Instead I decide to gain a foothold by taking out as many minor civs as possible:

The Chinese War – In 420, I declared on China and paid the Celts to ally with me. Bringing in the Celts was expensive, but it was the only way to ensure that I could beat China with such a horrible supply-line position (suicide chaining) and no iron in my unit-producing cities (Yay Archer Rush! In the middle ages!) The real heroes of this war were the ancient cavalry, which were actually strong enough to take on pikemen. Knocking out the Chinese iron on the first turn of the war helped too since I never had to deal with Chinese Riders. The Celts took all the inland cities while I got the coastline. Afer the war I founded a couple more cities and began clearing jungle in preparation for the day when the forbidden palace would turn this into a profitable second core. The Chinese were finally gone in 640 AD after the Celts took Beijing.

Hittite War – in 700 AD, with plenty of Berserks standing by, I launched an amphibious assault on the Hittites, who had never recovered from losing much of their territory to the Dutch. I managed this war all by myself, as the Berserks were more than enough to take out the Hittite pikemen. I eventually captured their capital (and Leonardo) and then made peace in exchange for gunpowder. At this point they had two cities left and were basically out of the game. I proceed to found more cities in the captured territory and MGL-rush the FP in a convenient location.

Zulu/American/Hittite wars – The years from 900-1300 are spent mopping up all the remaining minor civs. I get involved in the Dutch-Zulu war and pick off a couple cities, then get sneak-attacked by America. Around this point I am finally able to buy Navigation so I can ship troops directly to America. I foolishly made an alliance against America with the Netherlands, and they start snapping up American cities faster than I can reach them. By this time, I’ve finally gotten Navigation from the Celts, so I can start sending troops en masse to the mainland, and I’m clearly ready to take on one of the superpowers. Adjusting my strategy, I start shipping my Berserks and cavalry to the former Hittite lands and prepare to backstab the Dutch and raze their best cities while their military is tied down in far-away America. However, my plans quickly change when…

The Celts Attack! – And I smack myself. After cooperating with me in the Chinese war, Brennus begins to regret his earlier actions and attempts to drive the Viking scourge back into the sea. All my troops were elsewhere, so they take all my former Chinese cities in a couple turns. Since this is about the point where I reach the Industrial age, I’ll leave the rest for the third spoiler.