COTM 12 Second Spoiler: Entering the Industrial Age

[solenoozerec]

@Jove - when I was playing this game, I thought that Koreans are particularly slow (like they something). However, while my Koreans were very slow in BC, yours were exceptional in AD: Since 30BC (at which point they looked healthier than mine) they built just two cities

 

[Jove]

@Solenoozerec: That is interesting. What do you think made the difference? (No, I didn't discover a ganja resource to trade them...). But if you're trying to make me feel better for beating me this time, well, I don't think we can blame Korea.

@Megalou: Great game, informative post. Nice job!

@Redbad: Arrrr, I've watched you on your 20k quest for a few months now. Too bad you didn't make it this time. I feel for ya. Maybe if I went 20k it would be enough for you to win by 1 turn?

 

[eldar]

Dear me, there are some scarily fast domination dates around for this game!! Just goes to show, you put in what you think is a good performance, and the top players just prove it to be average!

 

[solenoozerec]

That is interesting. What do you think made the difference?

I would like to know it myself. Korean city placement is almost precisely the same in our games, just dates are different, my Koreans were slower at the beginning and yours were slower at the end.

My Koreans did not know anyone, at some point they new France (after French settler escaped on a galley he established a city near Korean borders).
But I doubt that this kind of knowledge could effect settler production.

But if you're trying to make me feel better for beating me this time, well, I don't think we can blame Korea.

O no, Koreans had nothing to do with it. I think they were so slow in both of our games, that we would have the same results if there were no Koreans.
I guess you would beat me in this game if your starting location were in either of se or sw game spots.
Also I thought that my FP was late, but yours was even later.

Actually, I am very much surprised how alike our games are. We were destroying AI in exactly the same order: Ottomans-France-Russia-Korea-Portugal. Than I started to fight with England and you with Byzantium, but this is an exception.


Even some ridiculous details are the same:
Ottomans built Oracle, ToA in Moscow, Hanging Gardens in Paris,
France escaped on a galley (but it seems that in your case this galley went towards Russia)

The main difference is that you started much later, but you were expanding at much faster speed. I wish we could combine my start with your ending. Maybe we would have a chance to compete with Megalou .

 

[al_thor]

After being brutily defeated, Osman declares 'Suicide Day' and 'checks-out' permanently

 

[Redbad]

@Megalou:
I'm in awe: not only would I not be surprised if your fast finish brings you an award, but I'm also impressed by your devious timing of attacks. Well done

@Jove:
Getting beaten in the 20K-quest gives me an opportunity to learn. In the previous game I thought that in conquest-games I didn't need wars to get a good 20K date. Minime and Dynamic showed me otherwise. In this game I learned that the thing I posted earlier. And besides: the best wins are when you outperform strong competitors.

And with regard to competing with you on the 20K-business: it will be your turn to win. Iirc the last time we reached for the same victory you were outsmarted by me (100K) .
Come to think of it: the mad-bax-gotm looks nearly perfect for a straight-forward 20K.

 

[Nata]

Open, Barbs fixed.

AA spoiler

450 BC - reach MA, gift Russia and Korea to MA but not Otto as he has the Iron. Korea sells me Mono for a huge sum but Russia won't trade Feudalism for anything. Have to research Feud/Chiv myself, and in Monarchy it takes a long time. .

110BC - built GW in Medina which is done with her Settler Factory duties and builds military Wonders till rest of the game. Founded a town on Iron on the close island.
90BC - contact Portugal and sink. Get Republic and gold for my Monarchy.

300AD. Finally connected Iron near Koreans, before the Island town builds a harbour. Have Chivalry, 7 turns till Templar, money to upgrade 3 AW.
320AD - contact England.
330AD - Ottomans manage to enter MA, get Engineering. We trade it for Mono.
340AD - meet Byzantians.
350AD - dow Ottomans. enter GA.
370AD - Medina builds Templar. Crusaders were used as MPs (we are in Monarchy) in the neighbouring cities for teh rest of the game.
440AD - get a GL, build an Army.
460AD - destroyed the last Ottoman town, but they escaped on a galley. Make peace. next target - Russia.
500AD - luxury deal with France ends (and why did we care?), so we dow . Also dow on Russia.
550AD - FP built in Khurasan close to the capital.
590AD - peace with Russia for 2 cities, after we take Moscow with Pyramids and Leo and lots of other cities.
Same turn take Paris and take peace from France for Besanson. France is left with 4 cities, Russia - with 5. Korea is next.

630AD - build Sun Tsu in Medina.
670AdD - dow on Korea. They have Lighthouse and it means we can safely go to another continent without Navigation. Research to MT trying to slow down others.
690AD - capture GLH in Wanton.
700AD capture Seoul and Temple of Artemis.
710AD - dow on France.
740AD - France destroyed.
750AD - dow on Russia.
760AD - major territory expansion from ToA Korea is off the continent.
770AD - Korea has a city on the unknown island which she is willing to give for peace, along with 2 more. We accept, she is left with 2 cities on a close Northern island.
800AD - we ship 8 AAW to the island with 2 last Korean cities and destroy Korea. Accidently the last Ottoman city is on this island as well. Their turn will be next.
820AD - Russia destroyed. Dow Otto.
830AD - Otto destroyed. Lots of Galleys are build and AWs are shipped overseas.
850AD - Portugal must have a death wish (but they also have Zeus). They dow on us from their single city on our continent. They capture Seoul, we take it back the same turn. We bring England and Byzantium into alliance with us, to thin out their Ancient Cavalry. Portugal territory seems to be teeming with ACs and Knights...

910AD - destroyed 4 cities of Portuguese from galleys. Otherwise our losses would be huge. "Brave Sir Robin" squad on 6 Galleys would take a city with no stacks of AC/Knights nearby, then run away into Galleys and swim into the Sea (no one knows Astronomy yet).

It seemed a bit slow to conquer Portugal in such a way, meanwhile we move troops from our Northern crossing point to Portugal via Byzantia. We have a lot of AW in Byzantia, and they witness Byzantian forces dutifully issuing South out of the country to fight our common enemy.

950AD. We did a bad thing. We ROP-raped Byzantia while her forces were out fighting Portugal, and even Muskets in her cities didn't slow us down.

980AD - took their capital. It had Great Library in it and as I'm avoiding Education I had to destroy the city.
1000AD - peace with Byz for 2 cities. They have 2 cities left which I take as soon as I move more troops into position. Peace with Portugal and dow England.
1030AD - Byzantia gone. Got a GL, finally got an Army on another continent (my 1st Army was stack at home as couldn't fit into a Galley). But it didn't have a chance to see action.
1070AD - England left with 2 cities. I plan to wipe them out next turn, but ... Domination victory!
Firaxis: 5977, Jason: 9244

Mistakes:

- I should have trekked out of the desert in the beginning. I had only 6 towns at 1000BC when AI was too behind in research to help, and I was too slow to research Construction/Currency myself. Also because Otto grabbed the Iron I didn't gift him to MA and lost a trade for Feudalism with Russia, thus got Chivalry only around 300AD.

- Korea build ToA in 50AD and GLH in 250AD. Why did I wait for so long (till 670AD) to attack them, wasting time on French etc.? And it was so easy to defeat Korea - they were pathetic. If I started with Korea and got GLH early my conquest of another continent would be much quicker.

About C3C: maybe it was the level, or the game was easy, but I found C3C to be easier to play than Vanilla.
AI seems much dumber, not exploring, not concentrating forces for attacks, not building Armies etc. Ok, AI would build Wonders as it's being destroyed in Vanilla too, but I never saw a Vanilla AI to build a SETTLER in a sieged city and then let out warrior/settler pair right into my Ansar army, and not one, but two pairs (2nd probably from another town, just waiting for the opportune moment, ha!) It happened when I was besieging French city.
Also the lack of contact trading and map making seems to harm AI more then us. Plus all fantastic new Wonders like ToA or Zeus or Shakespear...

Well, C3C is the whole new world and it was fun exploring it, and the game was very enjoyable. Thank you.

Attached: the winning minimap.

 

[Jove]

@Solenoozerec: Now that I've thought about it some more, maybe it was the wonder builds that affected Korea's growth. Your Koreans were busy building the Great Wall and succeeded, whereas in my game the GW was completed by England. Perhaps my Korea aborted a prebuild into a settler, which cascaded into a few extra towns. Also, your France had the Pyramids, whereas my Russians built that. Maybe prebuilds were affected in that case too. As you point out, yours were slower at the beginning, when all these wonders were being built. How we can turn this to our advantage is a whole other question.
And yes, it is odd that our games were so similar. I even imitated your reporting format because of the similarities. But to compete with Megalou, I think we would have needed different tactics altogether. Combining our games would just make a franken-civ. Reading over the posts, it looks like -maybe- Republic was better after all. Then again, he got luckier with his AI tech gifting and was apparently able to trade for Monotheism and Feudalism with Repbublic, getting to Chivalry way way faster than I. Arrrr! I can't make up my mind which gov't is better!

@Megalou: Your post seems to imply that you traded Republic for Feudalism and Monotheism. Was gold involved? Treachery? What were your trades exactly? Maybe Republic is worth more on the open market...

@Redbad: My ancient-deity ego is still stinging from the nasty 100k defeat you dealt me a few months ago. Rats. But I'm going to pass on 20k in GOTM43- 20k is the last victory condition for me to experiment with, and I don't think I want to start on Deity with it. So looks like this time it'll be all yours!

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

Open, barbs fix
Goal: Diplomacy
Middle Ages update: 0825BC-0340AD

DATE
MET CIV (remaining)
0410BC, meet Portugal
0250BC, meet Byzantines
0170AD, meet England

Middle Ages Techs
Engineering, 0825BC, trade Russia
Monotheism, 0610BC, research
Feudalism, 0610BC, trade Ottomans
Theology, 0450BC, research
Education, 0310BC, research
Invention, 0270BC, trade Russia
Astronomy, 0170BC, research
Gunpowder, 0070BC, research
Chemistry, 0030AD, research
Banking, 0110AD, research
Metallurgy, 0190AD, research
Physics, 0260AD, research
Theory of Gravity, 0300AD, research
Magnetism, 0340AD, research

Forgot to write down trades for non-required techs. At end of era the only one so far available was Chivalry, which I have. At the transfer and gift I’m able to get both Medicine and Steam Power without losing anything in the combination of trades, though I was a little nervous when I had to give the Byzantines 1K gold for Steam Power, but they gave it back for Medicine. I really made out trading these.

I generally traded everything to everyone. I held off on Astronomy so I could get Cop’s Obs, but that was really a mistake. Russia eventually found Astronomy way after me and then Banking very soon after me. If I had traded they may have gotten Banking first, saving me four turns of research.

Due to trades, I was able to increase science to 100%, though it did take some time. On a few occasions in the MA I actually switched 1-10+ citizens to scientists to speed up tech research. The later in the era the more I was willing to use.

I end up with 4 luxuries in my territory and trade France for Gems every 20 turns. A right of passage was required for my one fur as I split the fur with the Ottomans on the wrong side of each other.

My core cities (try to) get libraries, universities, marketplaces, temples. They focus on big builds. External cities go for just temples and focus on workers and settlers and acting as scientists. Since I only built a few granaries the external cities actually supply some of the core cities with citizenry. I start the Forbidden Palace to the North East.

Again, no civilizations go to war with each other or me during the entire Middle Ages.


At end of MA (0340AD)
24 Cities, 129 Population
1 Settlers, 24 Workers, 2 Explorers, 8 Warriors, 1 Musketmen, 5 Ansar Warriors, 1 Galley (left)

The best part is I'm 25 turns ahead of where I was in the last COTM when I tried to do diplomacy. Of course its a different game, but I think it was easier last time since we were scientific ourselves, but who knows. I just didn't play it very well. I've really changed my approach. Thanks to all others for your posts in previous COTMs.

 

[Drugged_Unholy]

Open fixed barbs.

Don't think i did very well here. Entered the MA in 50 BC and left it in 1350ad - so that gives you an idea of how badly i did.

I started the MA by finishing Russia off and thus controlling the north of the continent - save for a French and ottoman city that got through.

I then declared war on France and got the ottomans in an alliance against the French. I took Marseilles, which then proceeded to flip to the Ottomans a couple of turns later, which pissed me off immensely. This meant the Ottomans were able to block my path to the front lines, and I was left with horseman in French Territory, which I used to just raze Paris and take Rouen, generating a leader and army in the process. However the ottomans simply fought better and had taken control of the gems and finished France off as a serious player. The ottomans were now my rivals. As soon as our alliance ended I used the ansars to attack the Ottomans. Initially my attack was successful as I took all of his isolated cities and made progress further south. However the sheer weight of his counter attack (in terms of numbers) meant I had to abandon many cities I had taken – the Ansars just can’t defend. I settled for peace soon after, having achieved my secondary objective of gaining saltpetter and confining him to the south of the continent. This massively hurt my rep as I had an alliance with Korea at the time against the ottomans, but I felt I had little choice as I was losing the war. By now contacts had been established with all the other powers, and the other continent was far ahead in tech. This meant the tech pace increased as Korea and the Ottomans could trade their way up the ladder. Unfortunately I couldn’t get decent prices for techs as my rep was very bad at this point. I also made some foolish GPT deals during my golden age, which crippled me once the golden age ended. I decided I was going to have to self-research my way up, and so concentrated on infrastructure. However I also tried the pointy stick research approach against the ottomans, taking their furs before settling for peace and some techs when the Portuguese made a halfhearted effort at fighting me. I entered the IA in 1350, disappointed I hadn’t conquered the continent yet, but once the ottomans are out of the way I can take Korea easily enough due to their lack of resources.

 

[MeteorPunch]

@al_thor: awesome pic!

This is my first game with the Ansars and I think the best thing was having 20 shield cities build one every 3 turns.

What's strange is that the Korea game (C11) seemed like Monarch and a half and I struggled with tech in the AA. This game felt more like warlord. I thought France had a terrible starting location. Half of the AI's I faced didn't resources to begin with(France,Korea,England), and those who did had to face Ansars. I guess horses make all the difference.

I had my best luck ever in this game getting 6 MGLs for armies. 3 of them were stuck on the home continent waiting for Galleons :shakehead . Some more luck was that ToA and Pyramids were built on my continent and soon captured.

I could've done a lot better if England had learned to build roads, but still my best game.

Conquest in 840ad. 10468 jason.

thank you Gotm staff.

 

[Megalou]

@Megalou: Your post seems to imply that you traded Republic for Feudalism and Monotheism. Was gold involved? Treachery? What were your trades exactly? Maybe Republic is worth more on the open market...

About the value of republic, it should be remembered that the difficulty level is only monarch, so the value is higher. I'm guessing that the number beakers the AI need to complete a tech determines its value outright. On sid the value of your techs always seems to be crappy.

These were the trades:
570 BC - Russia knows Construction.
Traded Construction +56 gold from Russia for Code of Laws. (I only had one turn left on Construction, hence the cheapness.)
Sold Code of Laws to France for 74 gold.
Gave Philsophy, Code of Laws, Map Making to Russia. Russia gets Engineering.
Gave Philsophy, Code of Laws, Map Making, Construction to Korea. Korea gets Feudalism.
Traded Engineering from Russia for Republic, Right of Passage, 30 gold.
Traded Feudalism from Korea for Engineering, Republic.
Sold Construction to Ottomans for 48 gold. Ottomans get Monotheism.
Traded Monotheism from Ottomans for Feudalism.

I estimated that the value of Right of Passage was about one "notch", ie from "We're getting close" to "This deal will probably be acceptable" or from "I doubt they will accept..." to "We're getting close."

I found the last of these trades surprisingly cheap. I didn't even have to give republic to get Monotheism.

 

[Megalou]

@A'AbarachAmadan, brilliant date for Industrial Ages!

 

[klarius]

Russia gets Engineering.
Gave Philsophy, Code of Laws, Map Making, Construction to Korea. Korea gets Feudalism.
Traded Engineering from Russia for Republic, Right of Passage, 30 gold.
Traded Feudalism from Korea for Engineering, Republic.
Sold Construction to Ottomans for 48 gold. Ottomans get Monotheism.
Traded Monotheism from Ottomans for Feudalism.

Well, you were quite lucky. Korea did not know Russia. Otherwise they wouldn't trade Feudalism.
Feudalism, as government tech in C3C, is valued extremely high by the AI. They will not sell it, if they have the monopoly, for Engineering and Republic known by 2 civs.

I had another good constellation. Two got feudalism, so no monopoly, and one monotheism. Didn't get engineering, but who needs this on this map, when you soon will have Ansars .

 

[al_thor]

@MeteorPunch - thanks. It was certainly a first for me (an AI Civ being taken out of the game by a volcano). Kinda funny "The rampaging Ottoman forces have destroyed the Ottoman's"

I'm doing terrible this game. Being at Monarch, I should be finished. It's my age-old problem: Focus, focus, focus.

The Ansar is a very good unit. The movement of a cavalry during Chivalry is a great advantage. The Russians and the French certainly felt the wrath of the Arabian Empire (the Ottoman's were mostly gone already).

Anyway, I'm going to finish this game, probably end up with about 6K Jason, if I can even manage that. Then I will pick up the Diety Japan GOTM (tomorrow) and brace for an a**-kicking from the AI.

 

[LKendter]

After being brutily defeated, Osman declares 'Suicide Day' and 'checks-out' permanently

That has got to be one of the funniest pictures I have seen from the game.

---------------------------------------------

Middle Ages:
I make contact with the other continent in 370 AD. The first civ I found was Portugal. I finally found backwards England in 530 AD. The Byzantines are found in 550 AD.

The first war began in 230 BC with the Ottomans. The have the precious iron that I need. I gained 9 workers, 4 new cities, and iron. It ended in 50 BC with minor losses. I felt I already crippled them, and they will die before Sipahi arrive.

The second war began in 360 AD vs. the French. I want the nearby furs at a minimum. I gained my golden age, 31 workers, 14 new cities, gems, furs, Pyramids and Hanging Gardens. Paris does turn into a flip happy city as I feared and it stalls the offensive. They have an annoying city on the opposite side of Russia that will last a long time. They are effectively out of the game by 700 AD.

The third war began in 730 AD vs. the Ottomans with the goal to banish them to almost nothing. I gained 22 workers, and 4 new cities. I was shocked how many settler pairs the Ottomans had floating around. I think they had more settler pairs then cities. I finally got my first leader that built an army. The Ottomans are now a 1CCC and no longer a threat. I won't have to face any Sipahi. I signed peace around 840 AD.

The fourth war began in 770 AD when I refuse to give Portugal Metallurgy. I use this as an excuse to stir up trouble on the other continent and ally with the Byzantines.

The fifth war began in 1010 AD against Russia. I still don't feel I have the needed troop level for there size, but there are getting to close to military tradition. I definitely need to at least hurt them before rifles. I ally with Korea to hope that the keep those stray cities near their borders busy. I ally with the Ottomans just as a distraction. As I expected, the Russians killed them a few turns later. I gained 28 workers, 6 new cities and I now am number #1 in territory at the end of the MA. I finally get leader #2 that builds another army. Leader #3 is another army. I quickly get leader #4 that will rush the Pentagon.

My worker force is so absurdly large at this point that I am simply dropping roads into every tile hoping that all the future resources connected the second I am aware of them. I have already irrigated the south to the max to create some specialist cities. Of course, I am hoping the game is over before I ever locate the modern age resources.

I leave the Middle Ages in 1210 AD and begin to research Steam Power.

 

[Megalou]

Well, you were quite lucky. Korea did not know Russia. Otherwise they wouldn't trade Feudalism.
Feudalism, as government tech in C3C, is valued extremely high by the AI. They will not sell it, if they have the monopoly, for Engineering and Republic known by 2 civs.

Lots of luck but not just luck. I settled Baghdad on the choke point with one of my first settlers. Thx for the explanation though.

 

[Più Freddo]

These were the trades:
570 BC - Russia knows Construction.
Traded Construction +56 gold from Russia for Code of Laws. (I only had one turn left on Construction, hence the cheapness.)
Sold Code of Laws to France for 74 gold.
Gave Philsophy, Code of Laws, Map Making to Russia. Russia gets Engineering.
Gave Philsophy, Code of Laws, Map Making, Construction to Korea. Korea gets Feudalism.
Traded Engineering from Russia for Republic, Right of Passage, 30 gold.
Traded Feudalism from Korea for Engineering, Republic.
Sold Construction to Ottomans for 48 gold. Ottomans get Monotheism.
Traded Monotheism from Ottomans for Feudalism.

I made similar trades in 170 BC (still a lot to learn), when I got Currency trough trade from the Portuguese. Did all of the above Civilizations already have Currency? I had to gift it to all of them.

By the way I also settled the choke-point with my first self-made Settler. The trades for Monotheism and Feudalism were the following: get Monotheism from the Koreans for The Republic, get Feudalism from the Russians for Monotheism. I didn't even have to give Russia her missing Government. But then that was just after she lost the war to me.

 

[Jove]

Thanks for your answer, Megalou. I guess my problem was partly bad luck. Russia got Feudalism, the other two got Engineering. I couldn't trade for either. So I researched Monotheism myself, but even having that monopoly wasn't sufficient to make a trade for Feudalism. I wound up researching everything myself.
The non-luck difference is I didn't have embassies, so ROP wasn't an option. That might have helped- I'll have to remember that no embassies isn't always a bargain. Lesson learned!

 

[solenoozerec]

@Jove - I almost sure that your hypothesis about wonders is correct.