COTM 25 Spoiler 1 - end of ancient age

ainwood

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COTM 25 First Spoiler



To qualify for this spoiler, you must have contact with all other civilizations. In addition, you must know the locations of the capital cities of all other civilizations. You must have reached the middle ages.

So - did you go for the cows or the wines?
 
Pregame plans:
My goal is a good BC conquest victory, preferably within 100 turns. (An ambitous goal indeed)

I don't need to fear the opposition. They are weak Monarch AI's. They will expand slow. They will tech slow.
I hope to catch them mostly during their rex phase so that defences are even weaker.
Immortals are strong enough to conquer the world, but their mobility sucks.
The limiting factor to my finish date will be the time it takes my immortals to reach the other side of the continent.

To fight their poor mobility, i will start building a road across the continent as soon as possible.
4 industrious workers can build the road at 1 tile/turn. The map is 50 tiles wide,
so crossing the continent should be about 40 tiles max, maybe i can use some AI infrastructure as well.
Captured AI workers will be used to make side roads leading to the north and south.

My first conquest force will immeadiately make its way east, across the continent.
It will destroy only the AI's it crosses on it's path. The goal is to get to the far end asap.
I expect this to take about 50 turns including some healing and conquering as well as using the roads.
While the first force is making its way trough the continent, newly produced units will conquer the
AI's more closeby, but the nearest AI's that are not on the initial cross-country road should be the last to go.

I want to set my first Immortals within about 50 turns.
Therefore, i will not build a big core. I am not gonna need a big core. 6 or so strong cities should be all i need.
I think in 50 turns i can just build this small core and have production started.
I could do a min research on Iron working and be just in time to upgrade on turn 50 and have the gold to do so.
There are 4 AI's with pottery and only one with Masonry, so the chance to trade pottery is huge.
Getting a decent number of veteran warriors within 50 turns will be the critical part.
It will probably take a few more turns, but 100 turns is an imbitious goal and maybe i can win a little on the conquest speed.

I don't really need another technology, although i hope to trade horseback riding.
Horses are a pretty usefull addition to my strategy to take down runaway settlers etc and speed up the last bits of conquest.
While continuous warrior-immortal upgrades will take care of my production at home,
pop rushing in captured cities should replace the losses.
Espescially important for that first force that will soon be too far to receive reenforcements from home.
I hope the Greeks are nearby, as that will be the civ to cause me losses.

I have been in doubt between choosing open and conquest.
Conquest may be better as it will allow the AI to build more infrastructure.
Their opposition will still be insignificant and the more cities they have will also allow me more pop rushing.


The Game:
I move my settler north and see another river. I am too lazy to make excel calculations to see if i should move.
I decide that not moving will cost me enough extra turns before i get the cow irrigated that i can't be losing a lot by moving.
Moving also provides better places for my next cities.
So i move and settler between cow and river. I trade for pottery, quickly make my settler factory and build 5 cities.
Meanwhile, i do a min research on Iron Working as planned.
When one creates a gotm with Persia because the Immortal is one of his favorite units, i expect Iron to be close.

After 50 turns, my barracks are being completed and warrior production gets started. Iron working is discovered. I look around, i don't see any Iron.
So i get ready to build archers and look into my neighbours territory to see where i am gonna get my iron. I still don't see any iron....
Who makes a Persia gotm without iron in the starting area ?? :S

That was the end of this gotm for me. I know it's weak, but i didn't see a lot of reason to play on (won't win the gotm, not much challenge playing against these Ai's either)
Too bad, the idea of a 100 turns conquest game sounded nice to me.
 
I may bug a member of the GOTM staff for pointers on how to dissect autosaves and replays... because I might try to write put together a spoiler with specific trades, actions, and dates for this one after I've finished it.

The cow v. wines question would have been tougher if it had been any other lux (save ivory). That lux is food... so I went for the wines. When I founded Perseopolis there was a Zulu warrior on my border right off the bat. I traded first-tier techs with Shaka on that turn. The tech trading in the AA was rather brisk... the game felt more like emperor level from that standpoint.

I pulled the Republic Slingshot and drew a single turn of Anarchy for the first time ever. (In all fairness... my empire was still a bit small at this point. ;) )

It took me a long time to meet Theodora, as my boats kept getting killed of by barbarian galleys...

Wars came early and often. First Henry demanded something, and I signed Zulu on against him. That got the Zulu GA out of the way, as well as Henry. Then I grabbed a couple of Korean cities on my northern frontier... just before the Zulu declared on me at the close of the AA.

I drew Engineering as my free MA tech. The Zulu Impi were no match for combined arms task forces of Spears, Archers, and Trebuchets. Trebuchets are perhaps my favorite part of C3C.

Still without Iron, I organized a Longbow Bum Rush on Greece (my Trebuchets were still working their way northward from the Zulu campaigns...). Greece fell more easily than I imagined, probably because Alex had invested too many shields in Wonders. I captured one Wonder that altered my strategy - the Temple of Artemis.

Persia's Golden Age came late. After reducing Greece to a single city on the other end of the continent, the first Immortals saw action against the Koreans. The Golden Age shields were invested in Knights, which were dispatched eastward to be upgraded to Cavalry for a future campaign...

Seoul had three wonders I would ordinarily like to keep: The Mausoleum of Mausa ... Mauso (I can't remember how it's spelled... I never build it) the Hanging Gardens, and The Great Library. That last one would eventually kill off my source of free temples, and the automatic cultural expansions in recently captured lands... hurting my chances for a respectable Domination victory.

For that reason, I torched Seoul. That's right, I burned that sucker to the ground... and all three Great Wonders with it. Dropped a Combat Settler on the rockpile, and got a free temple five turns later. :D

Upon the discovery of Military Tradition, I shut down research completely, and jacked the lux up to 50% (to try to squeeze a few more points out of the game from happy faces). Right now my Cavalry are rampaging across what's left of America, and I've got my sights set on the Iroquois.
 
scoutsout said:
I may bug a member of the GOTM staff for pointers on how to dissect autosaves and replays... because I might try to write put together a spoiler with specific trades, actions, and dates for this one after I've finished it.
Only current trades are logged in the save - so you can't get historical ones. :(

Dianthus' CrpSuite has a good replay viewer, though.
 
ainwood said:
Only current trades are logged in the save - so you can't get historical ones. :(
Maybe I'll copy the autosaves into another directory (to keep one clean set) and manually analyze them... legal?

ainwood said:
Dianthus' CrpSuite has a good replay viewer, though.
Thanks for mentioning that... I use an older version of Dianthus' utility, and haven't messed with anything but MapStat since C3C... I've used the "Rings" utility once or twice... but never tried with the replay viewer...forgot it was there. I'll give that a shot when I'm done.

Thanks for jogging my memory ainwood. :)
 
Wacken, I can't believe that your game is almost identical to mine (except for city placement). I was doing the same, and once I found that there is no iron anywhere close, not even close to geta colony, I completely lost intrest and stopped. A real pity
 
Looking at the nice starting location with lots of bg, hill, mountains, rivers, I decided to go for a 20K win with my capital. Since i wanted the wines within city range, Persepolis was founded SE of the starting position. I mined 2 bg, next irrigated the wines. My build order was 4 warriors (3 scouts, 1 mp), settler. From now on, Persepolis went on culture builds.

I was lucky with huts and got mysticism, wheel, warrior, barbs.

The scouting warriors met Portugal (get alphabet for masonry, start reseacrh on writing). Zulu gave ceremonial burial, warrior code, pottery for alphabet, bronze, masonry. Greeks are backward. Americas give 35g for alphabet, Koreans iron working for mysticism, warrior code. And there is no iron anywhere nearby.

The problem with 20k is that a lot of effort goes into the culture city and I was hoping to claim territory with immortals. No such luck. And no horses either. Thus I built quite a lot of archers and trebuchets. Whenever possible, I traded for AI workers, since my own where mostly joined to Persepolis.

In 1525bc Koreans declare war4 and their 2 attacking warriors die. In 1200bc Americans try to bully me, no, they declare. I was not very worried about monarchy AIs and used the wars to make alliances and keep the AIs busy and tech progress slow. Thus I assumed to increase my chances to snatch as many Wonders as possible.

I made the philosophy slingshot 1725bc getting code of laws, researched republic (3 turns of anarchy) and literature. End of research, hoping to get The Great Library, using money for unit upkeep to conquer a larger share of the world.

The Pyramids triggered my Golden Age while I still was 2 turns from republic. I revolted despite of the GA and got only 3 turns of anarchy. The Persepolis terrain was so much more powerful in republic, that I preferred this over a despotic Golden Age.

Persepolis built the following culture:

2310bc temple
1450bc Mausollos
825 bc Pyramids (6 turns "more expensive" than Oracle, but valuable for the empire)
670bc library
410bc Great Library
350bc colosseum

I "lost" obviously Colossus (Byzantine) and Great Lighthouse (Portuguese). I also missed Oracle (Korea) and Great Wall (Zulu). No builds are going on when I enter Middle Ages 350bc.
 
The Persian Space Rush (or in a modern context: Iran gets The Bomb!)

Part One: Ancient Era
The immediate dichotomy was which direction to move in. With the cow giving better growth and factory potential than the wines, north was the decision the settler went in. Unlike Wacken's shorter-term goals, I already had the long game in mind, and two turns is two turns in this cut-throat world. So I settled there.

Next - what to do with the worker? Priority #1 in my mind was getting water to the cow, so that's what the worker did. SE to the bonus grassland, and irrigation all the way, no roads. This worked out beautifully as the irrigation of the cattle timed itself so that the 4 food bosted Persepolis to size 3 that turn.

The settler went south, claiming the wines and a river-side site. With that site's flood plains, a second factory was on the cards, so this city also eventually got a granary, acting as a worker pump to Persepolis's eventual Archer->Warrior->Settler pump. I was glad of all those archers, as Wacken's experience will testify.

Research and contacts (all except the Byzantines, who I took an absolute age to meet - quite literally!) came in thick and fast.

The slingshot was successful, but not before I'd pulled in a good number of ancient techs already. I revolted right away, and got... 7 turns of anarchy, more than one per city at that stage!

By 1000BC, I only had 7 (or so) cities but was also hemmed in by the Koreans, Portugese, Greeks, and Zulus. Greece's second city appearing in my first ring very early on was a bit of a shock! For a 60% map, there was quite a bit of imbalance... 5 civs shoehorned into a small-ish landmass, with a narrow choke leading to a vast tract of land for only 3 civs! Still, once iron became available, the proximity of my immediate enemies became an advantage rather than a problem, of course.

So at 1000BC:
Republic.
7 cities.
Couple of granaries.
3 or so libraries (I got this very early in trade from the Zulus :D ).
Bunch of workers.
Some expectant (and disappointed) warriors.
Some archers.
1 luxury, no resources.
All Ancient techs except Currency (2 turns to go), Construction (known by Zulu, who were also down Phil & Poly), Monarchy.
All contacts except Byzantines.
No wars as yet.

From the above information, it should be easy to deduce that I entered the Middle Ages in 950BC, after trading Currency+Poly to the Zulu for Construction. My free tech was Engineering. Korea and Greece between them came up with Feudalism and Monotheism, and I used my monopolies on Republic and Engineering to get them both. I still hadn't met Theodora, but had a warrior slowly making his way north. It wouldn't have mattered though, as I got the other two first-tier techs anyway.

Coming next:
An episode in which Xerxes decides Henry's furs would look good draped across his missus's shoulders. And Henry's head would look good on a pole.
Wang, Alex, and Shaka are also considered surplus to requirements.

Stay tuned for... "Middle Ages: WAR! WAR! WAR!"
 
Well I guess I got lucky with my growth pattern as I had Iron inside my empire by the time I discovered Ironworking.

I had gone north toward the cow and built a settler pump, with the bulk of the new cities being north east. When Iron became visible there was a city next to it already.

Needless to say I began to build immortals. Greece was first to suffer, then korea was displaced, then the potugese. Most managed to survive in distant outposts for a time. I was suprised that zulus folded easily

By the time I had rolled up the western continent, america had saltpeter and knights, but I have 100 plus cities cranking out immortals and knights, so I can afford to lose a few. drew the bysantines and Iroquois into the war with america to keep them busy, but mainly to keep their research down.
 
Predator

I settled NE. Started with granary prebuild right away. Pottery 100%.
5 turns later a Zulu scout stepped by and we could buy pottery and alphabet.
->Writing full steam.

Further diplomacy
2750 Contact Greeks
2590 Contact Portuguese
1675 War with Zulu. We need more space. Warriors are on harassing missions.
Archers capture settler pairs and workers and then close in on Ulundi.
1550 Peace with Zulu. We have now enough space for some time.
1325 Contact Koreans
825 Contact Americans
570 Iron online by a rushed library in Istakhr. Alex was so nice and roaded it for me. Upgrade 7 warriors right away.
550 Contact Iroquois
530 War with Zulu again (the final war :) )
510 we gained a great leader to form an immortal army, so one war is not enough anymore ->
490 War with Portuguese by letting them declare after a boot order.
450 Zulu gone


Science
Made the republic slingshot in 1500BC -> 4 turns anarchy.
I did not follow my own advice to go to monarchy :D. That had something to do with iron and the need for archers, which will die in some numbers.
Literature researched in 1325BC
Currency in 1100BC. Then I stopped research waiting for construction to show up.
Everything else I could trade.
There wasn't much to gain in going into MA and I hoped to maybe also find Byzantines before.
Finally I did anyways self research construction in 450BC, without finding Theodora :( . But nevertheless I could make a nice trading session, trading for feudalism and engineering and getting invention as free tech.


Cities
3950BC settled Persepolis
2630BC settled Pasargadae
1950BC settled Arbela
1675BC settled Antioch
1575BC settled Gordium
1550BC captured Ulundi, got Hlobane and Isandhlwana in peace treaty
1275BC settled Bactra
1200BC settled Sidon
1125BC settled Tyre with horses
1100BC settled Sardis

klarius_c25_1.jpg

So 12 towns with 36 pop at 1000BC.
3 granaries, 1 barracks, 6 libraries (mainly for culture wars).
All AA techs except monarchy and construction.
8 warriors, 4 archers, 1 curragh, 1 settler, 8 workers, 6 slaves

925BC settled Samaria
900BC settled Hamadan
825BC settled Ergili and Dariush Kabir
775BC settled Ghulaman
730BC settled Zohak
610BC settled Istakhr to finally poach some iron from Greece
550BC settled Jinjan the same with the Korean iron
530BC captured Zimbabwe with an Immortal -> GA, settled Borazjan
510BC captured Bapedi
490BC extorted Portuguese Evora
450BC captured Intombe - last Zulu town

This is supposed to be a military game. Immortals for the neighbors and then Cavs for the rest. The distances are to far for my taste to even do it with knights and for sure I don't want to move hundreds of immortals, though this would maybe still be the fastest way.
 
Here's my empire at 950BC. It's actually 4 libraries, 2 granaries, 4 workers, and still a bunch of warriors hoping for iron to appear (the Koreans beat me to it).

My main critisism is that I should've put Pasargadae a tile north of where it is, instead of going for the wines+flood plains. Then I'd have had room for two more cities on that river.

 
Like tao, I was tempted by the strong shield position at the beginning and decided to go for a 20K. Like him, I decided to settle to the south-east. In view of the victory type chosen, I decided to play Open for fear of getting hemmed in too badly. Good thing. It was bad enough as it was.

The worker moved south-west and built a road, followed by a mine. Road first is standard with an industrious civ. The worker next worked his way along the BGs towards the cow in the north where a worker factory would be prepared. Built order in the capital: warrior-temple-settler-culture… In the only other 20K I have ever attempted, GOTM40, this worked out well. To arrange this, I started by researching Ceremonial Burial for my Temple, followed by Mysticism for the Oracle.

I fairly quickly met the local civs. The last I found was actually the closest, the Greeks. This came in 2800BC. Early trades went quite well. I got Masonry from the Zulus, Alpha from the Portuguese, and The Wheel from the Koreans. That went to Henry for Mysticism (although I had almost completed myself) and Warrior Code.

Pasgardae was founded in 2710 BC and finished its granary in 1990 BC. Thereafter it settled into a cycle of building two workers and a warrior every six turns. In 1450BC, the capital reached size 12 and was pretty much fully developed. So the turn before that, Pasgardae finally started building some new cities.

In the meantime, research continued with Writing and Philosophy. I chose Literature as my free tech. I got that in 1625 BC, one turn after the Oracle was completed. So my Library went up two turns later, thanks to a small pre-build. This was followed by the Great Library, which duly finished in 1125 BC.

Despite getting the GL, I had no intention of leaning on it for science. My next objective would be the Republic.

QSC stats
5 towns, pop 19, 475g, 542c + 19cpt
3 warriors; 3 workers, 1 galley;
1 temple, 1 library, 1 granary, 1 great library, 1 oracle
All AA techs except Currency, Construction and the govts
Expected completion date: 2210AD
Six turns from completing the MoM
Twelve turns from the Republic.

Interesting event. In 900 BC, a barb horseman appeared from the direction of the Zulu core and pillaged Antioch, yet another demonstration how the AI cowers in its cities when threatened. Shaka had had workers for sale for several turns. I had thought that he must have been at war. But no. It must have been due to this barb. Sure enough, the next turn no more workers were available.

I lost the race for the MoM by one turn to Wang Kon. :mad: He will pay… Perhaps I had made a mistake in trading away Philosophy. I had thought that keeping Literature, the more expensive tech, for later trades would be a better choice. In any case, I switched to the Pyramids instead.

In 825 BC, I got a suprising flip. Emerita joined us from the Portuguese. Admittedly, I had far more culture than them but even so... it was unexpected.

In 730BC, I learnt Republic. I traded it around, gifting it to everyone to speed up the tech rate and to prevent someone from building the Pyramids while I was in anarchy. Everyone was gracious towards me except Shaka who was merely polite. I revolted drawing five turns. I then started research as best I could on Monarchy aiming to get the Hanging Gardens.

In 630BC, I had a spanking new Republic – like everyone else. Two turns later, I learnt Currency from the GL and entered the MA. My free tech was Feudalism and the Koreans had also previously drawn Mono. I traded even up with Wang Kon and then gifted the Greeks into the next age. They drew Engineering! So I traded for it and gifted it to Wang in the objective of encouraging them to go up the bottom side of the tech tree.

The Pyramids came up in 550 BC, firing off my GA. I had been saving a bit of money to cash-rush my Cathedral and Colisseum. I didn't quite make it; it took three turns to get them both up. In any case, I next turned up research on Monarchy with the aim of getting the Hanging Gardens. They duly arrived in 350 BC, my last wonder of the BC years. I made an attempt at the ToA but I didn't really expect to get it - and didn't, missing to Lincoln by eight turns. Sistine's awaits though :king:

In the meantime, I had been squeezing cities in between Greece and Korea to the north-east with the objective of snatching the iron up there. Bactra was built on the flood plains. Sidon planted north-east of the sugar. Finally Tyre landed on the iron in 370BC. This little maneuver would have some ramifications on future events :mischief: but that is a story for another day.

Culture builds:
3950 Palace
3050 Temple
1675 Oracle
1600 Library
1125 Great Library
570 Pyramids
550 Cathedral
510 Coliseum
350 Hanging Gardens
1240 Culture + 39CPT
Estimated completion date: 1959 AD

Attached are a shot of Persepolis at this date and a map of my rather oddly-shaped empire. You'll note that in the shot of the city, I have zero gold. I had forgot to adjust the slider the round before and lost a treb. :blush: I don't remember when that last happened. Could have been worse, I suppose. I might have lost a building. :eek:
 

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I went for the wines, but fog-gazed a few FP's down south so I settled directly on them, 2S of the hill. Shield rich, crowded, archer rush was the opening.

First off I pulled 3 warriors and a second worker, then went for a 6 turns archer-warrior-settler pump in persepolis. Once I planted 4 cities, it was almost 1000BC, I was a republic and my archers were on their way to march on Zimbabwe. from 1100 to 500BC I fought the zulus all the way down to the mountains.

The 3 scouts found the :evil: irons and I sent a settler/worker pair over ASAP. However it was clear that immortals would come too late and knights would already be on-line when they could reach their full potential. Also, my two neighbors Korea had gotten the Pyramids and Greeks ToA, making domination much much easier than conquest. So a war-scientists-fueled beeline to MT and a mounted domination was the plan.

By then, I had horses and iron (harbor rush in the NE peninsula) and started making immortals. I got Monotheism, the other 3 SCI got Feud x2 and Engineering. It was easy trading them all and knights were near at hand; Portugal would be the transition target before going for the pyramids and ToA.

The empire at QSC:



At 730BC, when I pointy-sticked construction off of the Zulus and boomed into researching chivalry:



I got 1 leader for an army, which died of malnutrition, gingivitis and of a few yellow archers. I haven't been much luckier in the rest of the game, I barely got a few elites at all and only another army way down the road.

In short, the very first time Persia wished it was Russia instead :lol:
 
AA Summary

Declared war on Greece as soon as 5 archers were ready. Didnt even need them as the single hoplite in Athens went down easily. Captured 2 more cities from the Greeks. Archers were still needing to be used so sent them north to Korea. Korea later built Pyramids and Lisbon built Great Lighthouse.

QSC

12 cities, 27 pop
2 settlers
10 workers
3 granaries
3 barracks
7 warriors
2 archers
lack Construction+Lit
Iron 3 turns from being connected
 
Abegweit said:
Attached are a shot of Persepolis at this date and a map of my rather oddly-shaped empire. You'll note that in the shot of the city, I have zero gold.

You finished a regular mountain before that gold mine? :hmm: :nono:
No wonder you ran out of cash :D :p

I tried 20k in my second city (S of your capital), looking at your screen I realized one big disadvantage - after corruption of my 36 shields I have only 29 left :cry: (time for the fp...)

But it will be nice to compare the results - although I did not use the palace prebuild till now which makes me think, your approach might be more successful. :(

No precise dates here right now, but iirc I had a key turn in ~350 BC when I researched construction, reached MA, finished Hanging Gardens and entered my GA :banana:
Quite a year for my people :cool:
 
WackenOpenAir said:
I sure hope they made a nice expansion to your palace !

Actually they staged a nice rock festival for me :D

When I passed by a small but famous town called Wacken yesterday I could not prevent thinking of you :wavey:
 
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