COTM43 - First Spoiler

[civ_steve]

COTM 43 First Spoiler - the Ancient Age!

There's been quite a bit of interest in this game so I suspect that those who downloaded and played over the weekend are anxious to get a Spoiler going. So, here it is, a day earlier than usual, to release some of that pressure.

Reading Requirements

1. You should have general knowledge of most landmasses and civ locations.
2. You must be able to research a Middle Age technology.

Posting Restrictions

• You may discuss any civs you meet and any trades you engage in.
• You may post screenshots of the starting landmass and 2 closest islands.
• You may post screenshots of remote colonies you establish or an AI civ, as long as the screen shot doesn't identify the location of the remote landmass on the map.
• No shots of the minimap.
• No discussions of the middle ages (or later)
• No screenshots of any middle-age (or later) resources.
• Absolutely NO discussion of any other currently active 'X'OTM!

Where to start? How did your exploring go in general? Did you find the new tech Polynesian Trade pretty useful? How about the Ancient Age UU the Polynesian Raider - was this unit useful and if so how? Any problems with the raging barbs? What plans do you have, and how are things working out? And, how is the AI behaving - anything interesting there? Any problems?

 

[Elear]

Predator report from the early MA:

As I told civ_steve, this game so far is basically the player versus the barbarians!

I didn't think the Sid AIs are very scary at all...since none of them can actually reach you until Astronomy, they are very useful for refusing demands, then triggering war happiness.

My opening went exactly as I had planned, and the extra food bonuses and BG made that better.

At 1000 bc, my civilization looked like this:

I am curious how similar city placement is for others?

My only possible mistake here was that of the two cattle and three wheats, my capital is the only city able to use one of those cattle, and two of those wheats. I did this to get more coastal and freshwater cities though (and a slightly looser build), so it doesn't bother me a lot. I just will probably mine some of the wheats...

Did anyone else notice the strange ability of the minor AIs to build wonders they did not apparently have the technology for? I think this is particularly useful to deny 'major' AI civs wonders. If you can use those civs right, that is.

The UU so far has been useless. I didn't build it because I don't want to trigger a GA quite yet either. I would rather use the middle age UU.

I hit the MA sometime around 600 or 700 BC, very rich with almost 3000 gold, but not making any money since I was going 70 percent research on Polynesian Trade with the other 30 percent in luxuries. Once I got Polynesian Trade, trading for luxuries allowed me to drop my luxury rate to 0. I went min on Republic since then, as I think I will be able to trade it to someone by the time I get it.

I was then able to then trade with a minor civ who had discovered Monarchy. I drew a thankfully short 6 turn anarchy a little while later. Around 350 BC, I became a Monarchy making around +100gpt with +50gpt from other civs.

The civs who are most advanced (America, Spain, Korea, China) also are in locked wars, so they can't have the opportunity to trade with any other AIs. On top of that, being in war, they research slower.

All the other civs are backwards. I don't think the Mayans have Alphabet at this point!

Finding the civs in the first place was a problem though. Other than the civ to the south (which I don't think you could miss), I found no other civs by 2000 bc. Instead, I sent a curragh around my island and had little luck finding anything. Then, between 2000 bc and 1000 bc, I found almost all of them. I loved the ability to traverse anywhere.

Yet the barb boats! This brings me back to the barbarians. Until I was able to start to dispense camps, the barbarian boats popped up everywhere. Generally in the early game, 1 of every 2 boats got sunk. This reduced to much less now, probably 1 in 10. I am still dealing with stray boats to allow passage in certain spots.

The one truly bad thing that happened in my game involved barbarians and small island city I had colonized. I moved the swordsman defender from the city to cover my worker, without realizing there was a barb camp a few squares away. The horsemen raided the city for 2000 gold. This was during Anarchy at around 500 bc. To prevent further damage, I had to abandon the city, thus abandoning the worker to the barbarians also. The swordsman went on to vanquish the barb camp, but he only got 25 gold from it. I ask the barbs this: what did you do with that 2000 gold?

Luckily with all the gold I am making, the 2000 gold I lost won't make a huge impact on the game.

But this was really the only major mistake, I think. If you count out the raging barbs, it has generally felt like an 'Emperor' level game otherwise. I will of course change my opinion on this once I launch my first attack. Although I won't name particular civs, I think it is a little obvious which civs would be best to attack to get to domination (land-wise).

So definitely barbarians are a big challenge in colonizing new islands. One of my current priorities is to build more swordsmen to start working on getting rid of huge stacks so I can have a little peace.

Destroying barbs and colonizing islands are thus now the main priority as I wait for musketmen (assuming I have saltpeter). Such a point would be ideal to make war at; if I can get a big stack of muskets and land them on a mountain, along with the wars between AI, I think there is great opportunity to achieve domination in time. But the right civs have to be picked. I don't think there is time to take them all down.

Once again, kudos to civ_steve for a great and fun game.

-Elear

 

[Elear]

Here is my empire at 10 ad.

And my two colonies:

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Predator, going for Domination (that's the challenge, right?)

Found Suva in place and start a min run on writing. Builds go curragh/warrior/granary/settlers.

Apia is founded on a hill above the sugar SE of the spices and builds warriors, then curraghs
Nuku Alofa gets a granary for workers, Honolulu builds warriors,
and I start throwing cities around in a pretty tight build.

I set up everything that is near a food bonus with a granary to ramp up workers/settlers.

Exploration is annoying at first - my first curragh gets sunk along the american coast...

and then I realize that barb galleys wont' attack me if I end on a non-coastal tile.

At that point, I send curraghs everywhere

Some things happened I didn't expect:

Lapita built Collosus in 3050 BC, which is earlier than I've ever seen it.
Then, Menehune built Pyramids in 2390BC and The Great Wall in 2150BC, which is just amazing.

Techs:

1750 BC got writing, Max run on Philo. Strategy was to get Philo and trade for Mysticism and Polytheism and take Monarchy
for free. Backup plan was Philo/CoL/Republic.
1275 BC, I got Philo, made trades and got Monarchy. At this point, I also found Menehune, and made a trade
I've never seen before!!

I get Construction.
I give Math and Writing.

Yes, I think Menehune got Construction as a starting tech.


4000BC Suva
2470BC Apia
2270BC Nuku Alofa
2070BC Honolulu
1790BC Avarua
1675BC Hanga Roa
1600BC Nati
1450BC Ahe
1350BC Lautoka
1350BC Hilo
1175BC Bora Bora
1000BC Labosa
850BC Bodo
690BC Kona Kaneohe
610BC Moorea
550BC Savu Savu


1000 BC

Spoiler :

11 Cities
31 Population
Contact with 12 other civilizations.
Missing Currency, construction, CoL, Map making, Polynesian Trade, Literature and Republic.

In 530 BC, India shows up with currency, which I trade for and enter the MA

I didn't expand off my island in the AA, so I didn't run into huge barb issues - I did have some on my island and one overran a city for production,
but they were really no big deal.

At some point, both america and England made demands of me, which I refused, have been at war with them for some time. England actually did it while
I was near them, so they sank a couple of curraghs. The war happiness has been very, very nice

 

[Elear]

Wait until you get to the real fun, trying to colonize other islands.

But you seem to have made similar progress with similar city sites to some extent. The differences was in my game, I was unable to beat America to Philosophy (for that matter, I didn't even try, I traded for Map Making and went full on Polynesian Trade).

And yes, the war happiness basically allows zero luxuries up to size 12, even without obtaining more than 3 or 4 luxuries in all.

 

[civ_steve]

... and then I realize that barb galleys wont' attack me if I end on a non-coastal tile.

Yup!

At this point, I also found Menehune, and made a trade
I've never seen before!!

I get Construction.
I give Math and Writing.

Yes, I think Menehune got Construction as a starting tech.

Yes, that is one of the 'benefits' that was added. Menehune got Construction as a Bonus Tech; I was most interested in giving the Player an extra trade to leave the AA a little early, but also building the GW is an interesting effect.

 

[Elear]

I used it like you said. Traded for Construction to the Menehune, and then traded Construction around for Philosophy, Map Making, etc.

 

[archphoenix]

may I ask an exploit in this thread:
do this exploit ban or not now?
I read http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/rules.php again, but I know that there are some underlying expoloits such as massive troops jump which later added by aiwood on that page.
the exploit is:
1.gift AI A 100gpts
2.sign A vs B,take back gpts with techs.
3. wipe B.
thanks.

 

[I. Larkin]

1.gift AI A 100gpts
2.sign A vs B,take back gpts with techs.
3. wipe B.
thanks.

Just to want ask it myself. With these minor AIs it is very handy.
And the same in SGTOM 13. (29 AIs 27 times more effective...).
My oppinion is that "all allowed what is not forbiden". And as game started already
we can't apply new rules for current game. After all for Sid it is hard:
you have to have Tech advanses and strong military. And, AI pays for "your" Tech.
They become more advanced and it will be harder to deal in a future.
However at lower levels it is unbeateble exploit.

 

[I. Larkin]

Predator, going for Domination
Found Suva in place and start a min run on writing. Builds go worker, curragh/settler/settlers. /warrior/

With 7fpt+ did not bother about Granary, but Found 2 Cities to use other weat.

For exploration I use Archimedes spiral method, counter clockwise.
I knew, that barb galleys wont' attack me if I end on a non-coastal tile.

Only one curragh was for a while at turn 15 I recon Barbarians Galley?? (Anybody have writing??)
To ensure save exit build chain of Cities in 1 turn galley ran.

Some things happened I didn't expect:

Lapita built Collosus in 3050 BC, which is earlier than I've ever seen it.
Then, Menehune built Pyramids in 2390BC and The Great Wall in 2150BC, which is just amazing.

Techs:

1750 BC got writing, Max run on Philo.
Lapita got Writing at the same turn.
Nobody knew Poly at my game,
Probably Maory knows Poly, as they build ToA.
But I did not found them so far.
It was pointless to get Construction as Menehune had it. I hesitated between Currency and MM, but chose MM when in
1400 BC, I got Philo. Start Literature at Max and use MoM for library pre-build.
Researced Literature at 1000 BC and researched “Polinesian trade” at 775BC
Polynesian Trade appeared to be absolute ballast at this time, only China had Map making and could trade. Also this Polynesian Tech appeared to be “un tradable”. Even when some AI’s got MM I could not put in “on the table.”

Sometime England DoW. (I refuse to give writing, turn before they offered 300 for that, but I decline).


At 775 BC start to Republic at max with 21 turns.
Make MA with spain vs America.
Also the same turn trade some tech and go to MA alone.


4000BC Suva
2950BC Apia
2670BC Nuku Alofa
2430BC Honolulu
1830BC Avarua
I paused “Rex” for Phylo…
1275BC Hanga Roa
and so on.

At 900 BC Found Labosa at wine and Riders helped a lot to deal with Barbarians.

Techs at 775BC
Technology, Known to, Estimated Cost
1,Bronze Working,(14) China, Japan, Korea, Inca, Maya, Aztecs, India, America, England, Spain, Netherlands, Menehune, Aborigines, Lapita,150
2,Masonry,(13) China, Japan, Korea, Inca, Maya, India, America, England, Spain, Netherlands, Menehune, Aborigines, Lapita,220
3,Alphabet,(14) China, Japan, Korea, Inca, Maya, Aztecs, India, America, England, Spain, Netherlands, Menehune, Aborigines, Lapita,250
4,Pottery,(14) China, Japan, Korea, Inca, Maya, Aztecs, India, America, England, Spain, Netherlands, Menehune, Aborigines, Lapita,100
5,The Wheel,(13) China, Japan, Korea, Inca, Maya, Aztecs, India, America, England, Spain, Netherlands, Menehune, Aborigines,220
6,Warrior Code,(14) China, Japan, Korea, Inca, Maya, Aztecs, India, America, England, Spain, Netherlands, Menehune, Aborigines, Lapita,150
7,Ceremonial Burial,(13) China, Japan, Korea, Inca, Maya, India, America, England, Spain, Netherlands, Menehune, Aborigines, Lapita,110
8,Iron Working,(14) China, Japan, Korea, Inca, Maya, Aztecs, India, America, England, Spain, Netherlands, Menehune, Aborigines, Lapita,310
9,Writing,(10) China, Japan, Korea, Inca, Maya, America, Spain, Netherlands, Menehune, Lapita,520
10,Mysticism,(9) China, Korea, Inca, Maya, India, America, England, Spain, Menehune,270
11,Mathematics,(7) China, Korea, India, America, England, Spain, Menehune,600
12,Philosophy,(4) China, Korea, America, Spain,510
13,Code of Laws,(1) China,930
14,Literature*,,960
15,Map Making,(2) China, Korea,1070
16,Horseback Riding,(8) China, Japan, Korea, Inca, America, England, Spain, Menehune,360
17,Polytheism,(3) America, Spain, Menehune,1070
18,Currency,(6) China, Korea, America, England, Spain, Menehune,1260
19,The Republic*,,2800
20,Monarchy*,,2400
21,Construction,(5) China, America, England, Spain, Menehune,1650

 

[civ_steve]

I didn't make Map-Making untradeable, but I did turn off some civ's abilities to build Galleys. This may have made it less desirable, but I'm surprised you couldn't put it on the table. Also, could be side effect of new Polynesian Trade Tech. Hmm...

 

[I. Larkin]

I didn't make Map-Making untradeable, but I did turn off some civ's abilities to build Galleys. This may have made it less desirable, but I'm surprised you couldn't put it on the table. Also, could be side effect of new Polynesian Trade Tech. Hmm...

Sorry, my poor English. I meant Polinesal trade, not MM.

 

[civ_steve]

My apologies; I thought you meant Map-Making, but reading closer you were still talking about Poly Trade. Polynesian Trade should be of no interest to the AI. I didn't realize that you couldn't even offer it - interesting.

 

[mc-red]

Great game civ steve. I really am enjoying the whole polynesian flavour of this game. I discovered civ III complete a couple of months ago when my son bought it. I have never really played a lot of computer games except football ones so it was a revelation. Since then i have become completely addicted and am ruining my life ... oh well...
I am so far a regent player so trying this on the lowest class. Was able to find 3 asian, 4 american, 3 european, and 3 minor civs so far and i think one perhaps the Iroquois if they are in has been eliminated by someone.
From the other posts i guess the Indians are still out there.
I lost a couple of early curraghs to barbs before figuring out the staying at sea on end of turn tactic.
Was able to get to philosophy first and gifted a number of civs mysticism so was able to trade for polytheism later.
The poly raiders were great for taking out coastal barb camps when they were lightly guarded by approaching from sea and then attacking so no barb galleys could cause any damage. I upgraded archers to get them once i researched the new poly trade tech and was able to immediately trade for furs from liz and dyes i believe from mao.
A lot of my game looks like the maps posted earlier except i have been working my way down wine island and have three towns with granaries to keep pushing out settlers.
I appreciate the hard work this site puts in to keep all this going.

 

[Niklas]

Predator, joining the challenge for fastest domination (I think)

Early game

Settled Suva in place and started a worker like Elear suggested in the pregame thread. I think that was really the way to go, though I didn't bother to make any detailed comparisons. After that an Outrigger, but since I didn't dare wait until after a granary to start chasing barbies I followed that up with two settlers. Apia was settled on the spices 2E of Suva, and my intention was to settle Nuku Alofa 2N of the capitol, by the cow there. However, when I had moved the second settler to that intended location, I noted this:

Look at that, if I move one more step north I can get another coastal town! So I happily move another step north, and you all know what I found . After some debate I moved back south again and settled Nuku Alofa where I originally intended it, leaving that lake to future towns. Evil civ_steve...

Apia built an Outrigger, a warrior and then archers (once I traded for WC). Nuku Alofa built archers. Time to go barbie hunting. I lost a few archers in the war, but in 2070 BC the Avar encampment is dispersed, followed by the Tartar encampment in the far north in 1870 BC. The Avar camp turns up again though, so I have to disperse it once more in 1675 BC. In 1575 BC I disperse the Ghuzz encampment in the far southwest, and that's the last I see of the barbies on my island. At that point I had archers fogbusting all of the north and west to ensure no more camps would appear. To me the barbies were less than a nuisance, the only problem they gave me was that I had to wait to settle Papeete in the southwest until I could get an archer down there. Probably I had so little trouble because I didn't go for that early granary.

My first canoe met the closest neighbor, then proceeded to meet 6 other civs before 1000 BC. My second canoe (from Apia) was completed in 2630 BC, but already then the waters were troubled by barbie galleys. I thought galleys only appeared when two civs knew Writing, but obviously that's not true. I thought I was beaten to Writing by a long shot, but that would prove false as I met the others. Anyway, the second canoe stayed in the sea tile 3S of Apia on its first turn, and the two barb galleys blocking the way west both moved east. So I ran for it, they came hunting but couldn't catch up, so I could escape into open waters in the west. This galley met five AIs before 1000 BC. My third galley, built much later in 2150 BC, met two AIs, which makes up the 14 I've met so far. No idea where the last one is hiding, since I've mapped out most of the black already.

I continued to settle in a slightly less dense pattern, so in 1000 BC my empire looked like this:

Research was set to Writing at minimum, still only China beat me to it (by 2 turns). I had no problem being first to Philosophy, and by that time Polytheism was known by both America, Spain and the Moriori, the latter who obviously started with it since I could trade it from them for Mysticism and Alphabet... I was expecting them to have Alphabet, so obviously it wasn't really a bonus, you switched Alphabet for Polytheism right?

In any case I had Monarchy in my hands by 1325 BC, and had my new government established by 1200 BC. I used Poly to trade for Map Making and went on to research Polynesian Trade at max speed. Or so I thought, but on the first turn as a Monarchy I forgot to turn research up to 90% from the 60% I did on the last turn of Philosophy. This meant I didn't get PT within the QSC, bah.

In 1025 BC Korea comes up with CoL, and some trading around on the turn after for CoL, Currency (America and Spain had it) and Construction (Menehune) sees me ready to face the newer, better times in 1000 BC. No one else is close.

QSC Score: 14713
QSC stats:
1 city, 10 towns, 38 pop
1 granary, 1 harbor, 3 barracks
2 settlers, 10 workers
1 cWarrior, 2 rArchers, 3 vArchers, 5 vSpears, 4 vHorses, 6 rCanoes
14/15 contacts (missing Aborigine), no embassies.
All AA techs except Republic, Literature and Polynesian Trade (ETA 1 turn)
2184 gold, 1 gpt @ 2/7/1

 

[pearpenguin]

My first game of COTM and I think I've already screwed up, judging by the look of these posts. One thing I don't get is how you guys are able to advance to MA so quick, well before my AD advance. I set my research as much as I can and also traded techs whenever possible. Judging by the screenshots, the cities are really closely spaced allowing for more cities so maybe thats the reason.

Also, I think most of you guys change to Monarchy, but shouldn't Republic be better cause it yields more gold?

Anyway, this is a good experience for me, thanks to civ_steve

 

[Niklas]

Hi pearpenguin, welcome to CFC and the GOTMs!

You certainly picked a good game as your first, the first ever game played at SID difficulty! If you've kept up long enough to actually enter the MA, then you can't be too shabby.

One thing I don't get is how you guys are able to advance to MA so quick, well before my AD advance. I set my research as much as I can and also traded techs whenever possible. Judging by the screenshots, the cities are really closely spaced allowing for more cities so maybe thats the reason.

If you read my spoiler, you will have noted that during the AA I researched exactly 3 techs, of which one was optional. I researched first Writing in 50 turns, then Philosophy in ~20 turns, and then went for the optional Polynesian Trade. I also picked up Monarchy as my free tech from Philosophy. All other techs (except Alphabet and Pottery that we started with) I got by trading from the AIs, via so called tech brokering.

The trick here is that the AIs cannot meet each other, but you can meet them all! The trade price for a tech depends on the number of others you know that also know that tech. The fewer you know that have the tech, the more expensive it will be. But this works the same for the AI as well, and we can use that to our advantage.

As an example, consider a situation where you know 3 AIs who all only know you (but not each other). Assume you know Alphabet and Pottery (like the start in this game). All three AIs also know Pottery. One of the AIs (A) has Masonry and Alphabet, so you have nothing to offer him. Another (B) has Masonry, but lacks Alphabet. The third (C) has Alphabet and The Wheel. Your only trade opportunity is to trade Alphabet to (B). Since he knows only you, he thinks the tech is worth a lot, only one of his contacts (you) knows it. But you have two contacts with Masonry, so that tech is not at all worth as much to you. In this situation he would gladly give you Masonry for your Alphabet, and he would throw in any gold he had as well.

So now you have Masonry as well, and AI (C) doesn't have it. Since he knows only you, he will think it's really valuable, since only one of his contacts (you) knows it (sounds familiar?). The fact that you know two others who know it doesn't matter, since he doesn't. He has The Wheel that you lack, but this time since you know no other AIs who have that tech it will be valued at full price for you. It comes down to which of the two techs (Alphabet and The Wheel) is worth more. Maybe you could get some extra gold from him, or he might ask some from you. You should be able to do the trade though, which means that starting the trade only from Alphabet you now know both Masonry and The Wheel. And if you have many more contacts, which you likely do in this game, the opportunities are manifold.

Also note that trading as soon as there is a tech to trade for is generally not a good idea. Better to wait until you can make a deal with several AI like I outlined above, and wait for several AI to know a particular tech, and then get several techs at once through trading around. Otherwise you run the risk of not having anything to trade that one AI whose tech you really need in order to trade with all the others, because you already traded everything you have to him for other techs!

Also, I think most of you guys change to Monarchy, but shouldn't Republic be better cause it yields more gold?

There are benefits of going for Republic, definitely. If you are planning a research game, Monarchy is really out of the question. But there are some things that speak in favor of Monarchy.
- For starters you never experience War Wariness if you are a Monarchy, which you do in Republic, so if you plan for a game with lots of difficult warfare then Republic might not be a good idea.
- Further, in Monarchy the number of units you can have before you start paying upkeep is much higher, so if you have a lot of units then you may actually be paying more money in Republic than the extra commerce would bring. Again, warring favors Monarchy.
- You can also use Military Police (i.e. units stationed in towns) to gain happiness, which could be a good idea if resources are scarce (like in this game). In Republic you make more commerce, but may end up spending more of it on luxuries.
- Then there's also the very real problem at this difficulty level that getting Republic for free, by being first to Philosophy and having Code of Laws already, is pretty tricky to say the least. I was able to trade for Polytheism in my game, and could thus get Monarchy for free. I couldn't have gotten Republic since no one knew Code of Laws at the time (and if I had waited, I wouldn't have been first to Philosophy, Spain got Philosophy many turns before Korea got Code of Laws in my game). So if the choice is between a very early Monarchy and a long wait for Republic, I take the former.

Though really, if I play 100 games I would probably go for Republic in >90 of them, likely >95 as well. But in this game, at this difficulty level, with the warring plans I have in mind, Monarchy is my choice.

Hope that made some sense to you and that you could learn something from it. Good luck with the game, and hope you stick around to play more COTM and GOTM when the difficulty level drops back to normal.

 

[pearpenguin]

Wow thanks for the long reply. I didn't know that the tech trade price depends on the number of people you know that has that tech, so that's a new thing. I probably didn't trade enough cause some of the techs in AA I researched myself and only traded about half of them.

I also underestimated the rate at which the AI builds stuff at SID level, since I haven't played at this difficulty before. I was planning to attack the little Lapita island but found billions of spearmen/swordsmen/bowmen on it. At least now I know what Sid level is like.

 

[Elear]

Indeed, usually the Sid AIs who live on tiny islands are the hardest to attack, at least until they fall behind on resources/technology. If you have a stack of advanced defenders, especially on a hill or mountain, their weak little units will die ridiculously fast against yours.

 

[Elear]

p.s. - It didn't make a big impact on my game, but I am curious that so many went for Philosophy and got it. If I had tried in my game, I would have lost the race for it. Usually on Sid level, I am unable to be the first.