COTM59 - First Spoiler

[civ_steve]

COTM 59 First Spoiler - the Ancient Age!

Reading Requirements

1. You must be able to research a Middle Age technology.

Posting Restrictions

• Please be discreet about AI locations; however, feel free to discuss contacts and trades.
• No discussions of the middle ages (or later)
• No screenshots of any middle-age (or later) resources.
• Absolutely NO discussion of any other currently active 'X'OTM!

The landmasses here are somewhat ... interesting. How many AI have you made contact with? On your starting landmass? I'm sure everyone has contacted the Egyptians; you will likely isolate them based on your initial capital founding. Has this been something you could use? Any other interesting things to report from your Ancient Age?

 

[Lanzelot]

No one here yet?!

Well, due to vacation I got a fast start in this one, so I'll go ahead and post my ancient age: I moved the settler one W to work the cow immediately and went for the usual Republic slingshot, which was achieved in 1300BC. Drew 6 turns anarchy and re-rolled: 5 turns

So this is archipelago? Yeah, right... But the curraghs were useful nevertheless. I built 4 of them. The built order in my capital actually was curragh, worker, curragh (as the first one had sunk in the ocean), warrior, settler (or similar). After I met someone with Pottery, I setup the capital as 4-turner and later as worker pump.

Three-movement curraghs on this map were invalubale! I got all 10 contacts before 1000BC and were able to trade most techs. I only researched Writing, Code of Laws and Philosophy. Using these techs (and the starting techs) I was able to trade BW, Pottery, The Wheel, WC, CB, IW, Mysticism, Math, MM, HR and Polytheism.
After the 5-turn anarchy was over, I started Literature (8turns) and then reduced science to 10% while waiting for my libs to be finished. During that time (like 4 or 5 turns into Construction) Korea came up with Currency, but they were not willing to trade it for Lit + Rep??? One or two turns later (975BC) Babylon finished Construction and apparently immediately traded it with Korea for Currency. Now I had more luck: Babylon was willing to give Currency + Construction for Literature + Republic.
I immediately gifted the isolated Russians and Germans into the Middle Age and got Feudalism from Germany (for Lit+Rep) and Monotheism from Russia (for Feudalism, didn't want Republic to be spread too far). Then I was able to get Engineering from Babylon for Feud+Mono. So in 975BC I entered the MA and already got all first-tier techs... (Greece was not even needed for this and could be kept backward...)

Now I tried to utilize a few of the things I learned in SGOTM 14 and tried to setup "klarius-like" deals. But that completely backfired:

• I gave the Iroquois 15gpt for a MA against the Zulus and tried to get my money back for techs, but they only gave 3gpt for Philo, and then refused to give me even 1gpt for Lit+Cur+Constr+Rep+Poly+MM?????? Had they been at negative income, when I gave them the 15gpt?
• Same with the Romans: I gave them 12gpt for a MA, and they were not willing to pay even 1gpt for 6-7 techs?
• I tried to renegotiate peace with Babylon and combine it with a MA, but they would not agree to renew the peace deal unless I gave them all my cash and 23gpt!! So I was forced to declare on them as I could not back out of that screen anymore! (There goes my reputation, because I still had a RoP with them... )

So the outcome of these deals is: -24gpt and a broken reputation... I hope that at least some of the other deals, where I was able to renegotiate peace and a MA for techs, will bring some WH in the end. I better leave this kind of diplomacy to the experts...

Lanzelot

 

[The Professor]

Settled in place; start Writing at minimum. Builds go Warrior-warrior-curragh-warrior-settler. Plan on usual slingshot.

3000 B.C. - Curragh meets Greece. Trade Masonry +49gold for BW+pottery. Warrior meets Egypt. Trade alpha for CB, worker + 10g.

2750 B.C. - Meet Korea. Trade CB, Pottery, & masonry for Wheel. Trade CB to Greece for WC + 45gold.

2710 B.C. - Found Utica on fresh water to the West. Starts a granary.

2550 B.C. - Trade The Wheel to Greece for IW + 5g.

2150 B.C. - Curragh meets Babylon. Also up Mysticism. I decide to buy it from Korea, (cheapest price) to get rid of some gold before it is demanded from me.

1990 B.C. - Curragh meets Zulu.

1575 B.C. - Meet Russia.

1300 B.C. - Meet the Mongols. They are up HBR, Math, MM, & Poly.

1250 B.C. - Trade CoL to the Mongols for MM, HBR + 17 gold. Then trade CoL + 37g to Babylon for Poly. Finally, trade CoL to Koreo for Math + 69 gold.

1200 B.C. - Meet Germany. Probably on their own island, cause they're way behind.

1050 B.C. - Get the Republic Slingshot. Start Currency.

1000 BC - Trade Philosophy + CoL + a lot of gold to Koreans for Currency.

Self-researched Construction to enter Middle Ages.

 

[Nata]

We had a rough start.

Started by moving W to the Cow, like Lanzelot.
Chopped forests into granary, revealing 2 BGs, so were able to set up 4-turn factory.

Sent my 4th settler E where he gets killed by a Barb! WTH? I thought they were sedentiary in this game? But I forgot they still could be busted out of GHs.

Then I'm peacefully researching my slingshot, when Greece comes along and demands Writing. I tell them to stuff it, and they dow and soon destroy one of my towns.
I have to switch my settler factory to build some archers to beat them back.

With all this going on, I didn't save 1000BC - no point.

Still we perservered, and expanded, and became Republic at 1275BC, and went to MA at 750BC, after researching Currency after Lit (? not sure why I did that - probably hoped for AI tod o Currency first) and trading Construction.

Our plan - domination with Knights and later Cavs.
I didn't even build warriors in AA, except a few for MPs and beat back Barbs, i.e. decided to forgo Sword rush completely.
Instead I tried to lay a foundation for Horsemen rush, like in Yilar's advice.

During AA we built 2 granaries, with two towns producing 4-turn (w/o granary) and 2-turn workers and the Capital doing settlers. We built 4 curraghs total and met everyone - but that was slowed down by war with Greece.
We built barracks and started on Horsemen in the rest of the towns, emphasising productivity.

Libraries and markets were planned for GA to be started in MA after we get Chivalry, but that's another story.

 

[Racinante]

Carthage: warrior x 2, Curragh, worker, warrior, granary, settler
3400 BC: Meet Egypt, trade Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial and 35 gp.
3100 BC: Meet Greece, trade Masonry for Bronze Working and Warrior Code.
3000 BC: Richest: Me, Romans, Germans, Russians, Mongols, Zulu, Koreans, Iroquois.
2850 BC: Meet Rome, trade CB for Pottery and 28 gp. Meet Korea (nothing to trade).
2470 BC: Trade Korea CB and Masonry for Iron Working and 7 gold.
2270 BC: Trade Korea 16 gold for The Wheel. Trade Egypt IW and TW for Mysticsm.
2070 BC: Found Utica east of Iron. Warrior, Worker,
2000 BC: Most Advanced: Mongols, Me, Babylons, Egyptians, Koreans, Iroquois, Zulu, Greeks.
1950 BC: Lonely Cow founded NW of middle lake, due east of lonely cow. Warrior, Worker
1725 BC: East of Horses founded well, east of the horses. Warrior, worker
1700 BC: Trade Korea Mysticism for Math and 16 gold. Trade Zulu Math for Horseback Riding and 18 gold.
1650 BC: Meet Russia, trade The Wheel for 35 gold.
1625 BC: Trade Rome The Wheel for Writing and 3 gold. Trade Egypt Horseback Riding and Writing for Polytheism and 16 gold.
1575 BC: Hippo founded south of third lake. Granary-Worker
1495 BC: Meet Germany, sell Alphabet for 35 gold.
1400 BC: Silks founded on silk and connected, worker
1225 BC: Complete Code of Laws, Meet Mongols. Sabratha founded on Greece border South of one hill, east of another, north of tundra.
1125 BC: Meet Babylon, trade Polytheism and 29 gold for Map Making.
1100 BC: Rusicade founded NWx2 of cow at Lonely Cow. IBT Philosopy, Republic slingshot, change governments.
1050 BC: Egypt demands Philosophy, rebuffed.
1025 BC: Trade Korea Polytheism and Horseback Riding for Currency and 6 gold.
1000 BC: Republic! QSC, 8 towns, 50 gold, pop 19, land 98, only need Construction to exit AA, 7 warrior, 5 workers, 4 swords, 1 curragh, still searching for the Iroquois.

975 BC: Trade Greece Polytheism and Currency for Construction. Enter Middle Ages.

 

[I. Larkin]

I moved the settler one W to work the cow immediately and went for the usual Republic slingshot, which was achieved in 1300BC. Drew 6 turns anarchy ...
Lanzelot

1050 B.C. - Get the Republic Slingshot. Start Currency.

1100 BC: Rusicade founded NWx2 of cow at Lonely Cow. IBT Philosopy, Republic slingshot, change governments.

Why?? How?? It is unfair… I researched full speed writing at 2070 BC, and Babylons did the same the same year. Two turns later Romans also got it. Not even saying about Republic sling at this situation but at least had hope to have Philosophy first… BUT at 1830 BC Romans got Philosophy and drew Map Making as a free tech…

How they did it?? They have only 12 bpt, vs mine 19 bpt and started two turns later! It is Emperor after all…

Full of anger I DoW to both and make MA/Peaces_Deal (MAPD) with Korea, Greeks and Zulu vs them. Surprisingly they all agreed for free! But 20 turns did not give any results. Some turns IBT MAPD Babs got MMaking. To get it I decided to not continue the MAPD vs Babs.

Another “disaster” was that Germany researched Polytheism [monopoly(!)] even did not knowing Masonry and Alpha! You know, where Germany is? Yes, they are there. And they start ToA, of course… To trade Poly I need to gift M and Alpa “for free”, and get Poly for Writing and Math…

Approximately the same time Korea got Currency and Greeks got Constructions.

I researched CoL and Republic from scratch at 875 BC. Drew 6 turns anarchy. But it was my MA already. Normally I do not “gift to Sci Civ” before Anarchy ends. Also decided to wait when second round of MAPD ends and Babs 20 turns PD ends.

I setup the capital as 4-turner and later as worker pump.
Lanzelot

So am I to be precise 4.5 -> 6.5 4 turn SF.

Now I tried to utilize a few of the things I learned in SGOTM 14 and tried to setup "klarius-like" deals. But that completely backfired:

Why “klarius - like”? I wrote an article about MAPD while ago…
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=246590

So the outcome of these deals is: -24gpt and a broken reputation... I hope that at least some of the other deals, where I was able to renegotiate peace and a MA for techs, will bring some WH in the end. I better leave this kind of diplomacy to the experts...

Lanzelot

You really deserve it… [J/K]

 

[Racinante]

Why?? How?? It is unfair…

A turn log may be helpful, including and especially trades.

I researched at full speed but never completed anything until CoL. In retrospect, I probably could have shut research off entirely and traded for / bought everything except Philosophy.

The curragh and first two warriors was critical for meeting the AIs and I always made every trade possible unless I was offered just a handful of gp.

My impression is that the AIs generally like to research all of the first tier, then second tier, etc. so if you trade the a second tier tech, they will most likely research another second tier they do not have, so you can manipulate them into certain paths. By trading Alphabet and Writing quickly, they seem to focus on IW, Math, Poly, and HBR instead of going after Philosophy or CoL.

My impression may be wrong, however I never traded CoL until after reaching the MA.

 

[axehaxe]

I've never really played the Carthaginians before and didn't know too much about them. Well now I find that they are a very decent civ to play as. That industrious trait is the best trait you can have + seafaring is very strong + a strong versatile offense and defense unit the numidian mercenary. Here is how the game is going:

Settled in place and immediately began beelining writing at 100% research. Build 2 curraghs and 0 warriors as my starting build, then build settler.

Did the usual curragh to meet everyone gambit. Didn't do any tech trading until I got philiosophy and code of laws as my free tech. That turn I caught up like 8 or 9 techs by trading around. Had about 5 or 6 cities at that point. Then I began 50 turn research on literature to build the GL. My 2nd city was stacking up lots of prebuild shields in the mean time (Thank you for making this map SEDENTARY )

Got the GL and made the AI get super crippled in tech

Declared war on Egypt and took Buto and razed Avaris, sign peace for 1 more of their cities - gave me a far upper hand in # of cities.

13 turns later, they try ROP raping me and end up wasting like 20 units on my defenses

Conquer their 2nd Avaris, conquer Abydos, and sign peace asking for 2 more of their cities. Talk about someone getting pwned there!

20 turns later, I declare war on Egypt again and spent tons of cash rushing units and take over that part of the continent. Russia signs a MA with Egypt and declares war on me during that time. I signed MA with Rome against Russia. Later I got Germany to declare war on Russia.

Currently researching metallurgy and the Iroqouis are showing signs of a runaway AI with 30 cities! Better catch up or cripple them. Babylon with 17 cities. Iroqoius declared war on Babylon.

 

[civ_steve]

Drew 6 turns anarchy and re-rolled: 5 turns

Conquests fixed that bug, but you can still try for reduced anarchy in PTW.

I.Larkin - perhaps GH's played a part in this randomness. A few months ago during the last Warlords PTW game, as the isolated Iroqouis on a small icy island, I tried some alternative approaches to the game after finishing it the first time. I was trying to capture some information that I hadn't logged and I didn't have a close-by save file. The player is isolated so you would think all the pre-contact AI moves would be exactly the same, but they weren't. In some cases the AI Techs were dramatically different. And since I was playing a GLib game this could be critical; in one case the AI built the GLib around 400 BC (perhaps by GL), beating me handily to the Wonder.

 

[Lanzelot]

Why?? How?? It is unfair… I researched full speed writing at 2070 BC, and Babylons did the same the same year. Two turns later Romans also got it. Not even saying about Republic sling at this situation but at least had hope to have Philosophy first… BUT at 1830 BC Romans got Philosophy and drew Map Making as a free tech…

Did you perhaps trade Alphabet to the Babylonians early on? Perhaps that got them started on Writing, and then when they sold Writing to the Romans that got those started on Philosophy?! (I did not trade Alphabet, before I finished Writing.)

How they did it?? They have only 12 bpt, vs mine 19 bpt and started two turns later! It is Emperor after all…

Did they perhaps get a Golden Age shortly after they started Philosophy? Then the 12 bpt would become 18 bpt, and as they only need 80%, that would be enough to overtake you.
I would say, this is a very unlucky coincidence of several strange factors that happens maybe in 1 out of 100 games...

Another “disaster” was that Germany researched Polytheism [monopoly(!)] even did not knowing Masonry and Alpha! You know, where Germany is? Yes, they are there. And they start ToA, of course… To trade Poly I need to gift M and Alpa “for free”, and get Poly for Writing and Math…

In my game both, the Russians and the Germans started ToA, but fortunately the Romans had started a very early Pyramids built which was beaten and cascaded into the ToA, so they finished it first. Otherwise I would have invested a bit of money to find out, when Russia and Germany would finish their ToA, and then send a few gallay-loads of Knights to capture these towns if necessary.

Why “klarius - like”? I wrote an article about MAPD while ago…
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=246590

Well, I did not mean those "fishing for war happiness" deals that you describe in your article, but the following:

• Buy a MA for gpt (no peace deal involved!)
• Sell them techs to get the gpt back
• When they break the MA, your gpt payment gets cancelled, but they still have to pay you the gpt for the techs

This is similar to what is described here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=253550
But it is not banned, because I never payed them more for the MA than they were asking for. I called it "klarius-like", because Northern Pike said so here:

The Klarius way of forming alliances is to first buy the alliance for gpt, then get the gpt back for techs. Since AI civs normally break an alliance by making peace with the enemy before twenty turns have elapsed, this can mean many turns in which the gpt are coming in but not going out--gold out of thin air. But I'd better leave it to Klarius to explain the details, since the authorities keep banning his tricks and he's up to date on what's still allowed.

So I assumed klarius was one of the first to use this technique?! (But I'm too lazy now to search the old GOTM threads to find out for sure...)

You really deserve it… [J/K]

Thanks, captain...!

Lanzelot

 

[I. Larkin]

Did you perhaps trade Alphabet to the Babylonians early on? Perhaps that got them started on Writing, and then when they sold Writing to the Romans that got those started on Philosophy?! (I did not trade Alphabet, before I finished Writing.)


Did they perhaps get a Golden Age shortly after they started Philosophy? Then the 12 bpt would become 18 bpt, and as they only need 80%, that would be enough to overtake you.
I would say, this is a very unlucky coincidence of several strange factors that happens maybe in 1 out of 100 games...


In my game both, the Russians and the Germans started ToA, but fortunately the Romans had started a very early Pyramids built which was beaten and cascaded into the ToA, so they finished it first. Otherwise I would have invested a bit of money to find out, when Russia and Germany would finish their ToA, and then send a few gallay-loads of Knights to capture these towns if necessary.


Well, I did not mean those "fishing for war happiness" deals that you describe in your article, but the following:

• Buy a MA for gpt (no peace deal involved!)
• Sell them techs to get the gpt back
• When they break the MA, your gpt payment gets cancelled, but they still have to pay you the gpt for the techs

Lanzelot

Ah, I see...
I indeed trade Alpha to Babs early, as Babs had contact with Rome. And it is not usual, that AI start Writing before IW.

But it is first time I see that Philosophy come first, before IW (!), MM, CoL or Mathematics. They did not had GA, I established embassy soon after. The only rational explanation is Goody hut.

I don't mind to have "more fun", but this "random factor" is not good for SGOTM, say.

You right, it is "klarius like", i did not read carefuly. But you see, it is not always work.

AI like "pay to each other" gpt for Tech, Peace and so on, After MA it drops and you know result.

 

[templar_x]

going predator for the first time... probably going for a science game

move worker to wine, see 2nd wine and settle in place
wa-wa-curr-wo-curr-barracks-curr-settler (8-turn combo factory)
worker mines, then roads the wine; moves w of Carthage, roads, then to cows to improve those
warrior finds fresh water to the east )) then see wheat to the east
fresh water to the west as well!
and another cow to the west
3250 curragh discovers channel to the south, meet Egypt, no trades yet as i wait for more contacts
meet Greece in 2950
make some deals that net me WC, BW, MAS and change
second curragh goes north
westbound curragh meets Koreans in 2750, are weak
meet Rome in 2670 and trade for TW – fine, horses nearby
soon after Koreans have IW and we trade that around, iron so close too!
2470 i meet the Iros that are growing well
buy two Korean workers
it´s nice to be the only seafaring tribe...
meet Russia in 2270, backwards and in strange colours... maybe has taken magic mushrooms
1950 Iros and Mongols know Writing before me
1910 see 2nd lux close to capital
meet Zulu
1830 plant 3rd town S of the horses
1790 research Writing and start trade round, gain Maths, Myst, HB and some coins, set to Philo in 13
1725 meet Babylon, already have 6 cities but no techs nor money
wow, this is a huge piece of land
until now only Egypt has horses, none has iron
meet Germany as last nation in 1475, 6 cities but backwards, make a small deal
research Philo (Writing was around and i was maybe too careful for the slingshot... dunno but will see), take CoL and research Rep
the trading ability of workers and the wm my curraghs explore tell me everyone but Russia and Germany is on the same land mass
gift everyone Writing and Maths so they research the right techs... tech pace very slow now, i maybe should have tried for the slingshot, dunno, Writing was out there really early...
realize choke point to the west where two greek units (musket+hoplite) are fortified in the jungle
Utica, the cow city, builds granary, a worker and is a 6-turner from 1400 on
found Hippo to the SE at the coast
1200 Korea has Currency, good boy
1175 Germany builds Colossus
only now see 3 cows to the west, haven´t explored just those tiles... sure the greeks are there. civ_steve likes to create places like that.

QSC 1000BC:
8 towns
21 citizens
1 settler, 3 workers, 5 slaves
8 warriors, 1 archer, 1 cat, 2 Numedian, 4 curraghs
Republic in 15 turns

 

[CKS]

Open, 20K

I haven't had time to play in ages, but I thought I'd give this a whirl. My notes are almost non-existent, though.

I don't think I've ever played Carthage on my own.

4000 WORKER TO WINES, settle in place, cb at max
(Even on emperor I more often end up without ceremonial burial when I want to chop a temple than miss out on the slingshot, so I go for it. This is probably because I need to work on meeting the AI, not because I'm a good researcher. This time I should have skipped it as I met Egypt in plenty of time.)
3 warriors, settler, writing at max
3300 meet greece
3200 25 g from hut
3000 meet egypt
2950 build Utica 3 se of start, temple - 20K, meet korea, sell cb for 45 g
2590 meet Rome - trade for iw reveals iron in Utica
2390 meet Russia
2350 temple, start colossus
2080 writing - col
1950 meet Germany
1750 meet Babylon
1650 meet Mongols
1375 col -> phil, colossus->oracle (ended up switched to GLib)
1200 miss slingshot by 2 turns
1150 meet iroquois
570 glib
470 Babs have rep, trade&revolt - 4 turns
450 mongols& russians demand &declare
410 republic
310 library
290 enter ma via glib
gift sci civs, peace with russia