COTM77 - Final Spoiler

[civ_steve]

COTM 77 Final Spoiler; Mongols, Game Submitted

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Pangaea, Emperor Level, as the Mongols - could be fun!! How did your game go?

 

[Megalou]

Predator, going for domination

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more. Had I wanted to show off, I would have written nothing. My result was decent, but hardly enough for a medal unless the submissions are unusually few.

On the verge between the ancient age and the medieval age, I could trade Monotheism, but nothing else since both Korea and Babylon got the same free tech. I then went Feudalism-Chivalry and stopped research. Engineering was missed, although it's hard to say how big the negative effect was in the end.

I started to build a wonder (necessary for a golden age) really early, in 1650 BC. Of course, before that wonder was finished, it was necessary to capture one or two other wonders, one or two depending on which wonder I built myself. Commercial wonders were scarce: No one wanted to build The Great Lighthouse (understandably) and The Colossus had been erected by the remotest of civs, Babylon. The best way to go, I think, would have been to build Sun Tzu, to give me time to reach Babylon before the completion of that wonder. I should have started it a bit later, too. Instead, I built Temple of Artemis as early as 330 BC, which surely gave a slight boost to the score, but did nothing to improve the victory date. It could have been captured from the AI and its shields could have been used for keshiks or possibly Sun Tzu.

Sun Tzu would also have been useful for its barracks. As it turned out, I hurried quite a few barracks to heal armies fast.

I toyed with the idea of building Knights Templar (militaristic wonder) after ToA, but decided that the golden age would have come too late to make a difference. So I had no golden age at all.

Anyway, that predator obstacle was really interesting.

There's not much to say about the rest. I had poor RNG in the beginning but good leader luck. I could hurry Forbidden Palace in Beijing (pyramids) in 430 BC and save a few turns on Chivalry. I ground down China very slowly, avoiding to raze any of their towns since there would always be troops passing through their old territory ready to capture towns that expanded or grew in population.

Thanks to over-powered keshik armies (3) the rest was just basic craftsmanship. For example, I took out the whole Egyptian core using only one army and one elite backup keshik. At one point I was at war with all civs.

I don't have time to list exact dates at the moment, but I got a 3rd century victory with a score in the 11 Ks.

 

[Memento]

Where are my notices?
I would build ToA too, but Arabs build it 4 Round earlier in 110bc, at this time i dont need another Wonder so i build Knights Templar. If i had a few Crusader the Game Ends and no Crusader have a Fight.
I captured ToA in 10 bc. In 70ad ToA works and my Tiles go from 538 to 914.
Leader in 490bc, 10ad and 30ad.
1st Army clear most of Japan, 2nd the Rest of Arabs(exept 1 town), 3rd with 2 Horseman+1 Archer (no UU in the near) lost by Babylon.
In the Round before Dom 4th Leader rush FP.
GA starts in 370bc
Dom in 210ad with 1256 tiles, 15 towns left from Conquest

 

[Megalou]

How did you start your GA?

 

[Memento]

UU.
I play Open

 

[CKS]

Open, originally shooting for 20K.

I had fun with the Keshiks; my neighbors did not. I had reasonable luck with leaders, leading to getting the Heroic Epic quite early for me. I was cruising along, having reduced my opponents to two (Japan and Babylon) and headed for a reasonable 20 K date when I realized that it was 1250 AD and I was doing 4-turn research with only 4 more techs in the industrial age. I gifted Japan and Babylon up so they could research combustion and then gave them combustion when I finished it, in the hopes that they would learn flight for me. They didn't. I swapped my palace prebuild for an army and then back, to dump some shields and learned flight myself. Then I brought Babylon into the modern age, and they got fission for me. I traded everything I had - including going and setting all my specialists to tax men and setting a bunch of cities to wealth - to get fission. I swapped my palace for the UN, waited a turn for it to complete, declared on Japan and allied Babylon to get the win. Getting the alliance was a little tricky, since I'd given everything I had for fission, but I had access to the city screens this time, so I could rearrange citizens. I didn't think about selling some buildings until later, but that would have simplified it some. I finished in 1345.

My Jason score was ridiculously high. Because I was playing for 20K, I didn't try to minimize research time at all costs, and (of course) I spent time on Printing Press, Democracy, and Free Artistry. If I'd been thinking diplomatic the whole time, I might have broken 10K. I may try it again on a relatively easy game, just to see how it goes. I've only gone diplomatic before in games where I had no other hope of winning.

 

[Più Freddo]

Predator class
Conquest aim


Developing the Core

I had entered the Middle Ages in 1025 BC and learned Monotheism and
Feudalism. Research was set for Chivalry at a reasonably high
speed. In the mean time I tried to produce as many Horsemen as
possible, knowing that it would not be possible to disconnect Iron and
build Horsmen for upgrade once Chivalry was discovered. So I
short-rushed Horsmen under a moderate research rate.

During the whole rest of the game, developing the core cities was a
priority. Ta-Tu got a Granary and produced Settlers and Workers almost
to the end. Karakorum also built a couple of Workers just before
leaving the factory stage. Core development (improvement, growth and
assignment) was slow. Industrious Workers could have worked wonders.

Instead of upgrading Horsemen, I short-rushed 60-shield Keshiks. At
most spt rates, it was doable but inefficient:

4 spt -> rush to 40 shields using MDI, 5 turns remain
5 spt -> rush to 40 shields using MDI, 4 turns remain
6 spt -> rush to 30 shields using Settler, 5 turns remain
7 spt -> rush to 40 shields using MDI, 3 turns remain
8 spt -> rush to 20 shields using Archer, 5 turns remain
9 spt -> build at 63 shields, bummer
10 spt -> rush to 40 shields using MDI, 2 turns remain
11 spt -> like 10, bummer
12 spt -> build at 60, 5 turns needed
15 spt -> rush to 30 shields using Settler, 2 turns remain

Towards the end of the game, I opted for a raise in entertainment
spending in order to induce We Love The King celebrations bringing
several cities from 9 spt to 10 spt. In the very end I also rushed
Keshiks in corrupt cities close to the frontier.


Rolling Keshik Hordes

I was already at war with China and pretty soon came through on the
other end and had to make war with Korea, too. As China was destroyed,
I opened up the front on Japan and Babylon as well, letting the
Egyptians broil in anticipation and a military alliance tied to the
peace treaty. The first Wonder to be captured was The Oracle in
Seoul. The first Military Great Leader built an Army.

775 BC War Korea
670 BC Destroy China
650 BC Discover Chivalry
650 BC War Japan War Happiness!
650 BC War Babylon
650 BC PT/A Egypt v. Babylon
550 BC Capture Seoul with The Oracle
510 BC Emerge Military Great Leader​

At this stage news of two important developments reached the
Mongolians: In 390 BC, Korea discovered Engineering and Kyoto built
The Temple of Artemis. I wanted to possess both as soon as
possible. The next turn I traded for some Technologies and a Slave,
which was was I really wanted, but forgot to include the Slave in the
deal. Bummer. The second Military Great Leader was brought the long
way from the front to the core to build the Forbidden Palace.

370 AD Learn Monarchy
370 AD Learn Literature
330 BC Flip Edo
310 BC Emerge Military Great Leader
270 BC Capture Kyoto with The Temple of Artemis
250 BC War Egypt
250 BC Peace Babylon
190 BC Build Forbidden Palace in Almarikh
170 BC Peace Korea End War Unhappiness
170 BC Learn Engineering
170 BC Massive cultural expansion​

The rest was really just mechanics. I started the attack on Arabia too
late and had too many troops in the east in the end. The whole game I
was set on conquest, but I also filled out the empty spaces with
cities for score. Before I could capture all cities, I more or less
accidentally hit the Domination Limit. It would have been smarter to
actually go for domination rushing more Settlers and reaching that
goal earlier. The third Military Great Leader build a second Army in
the east.

_10 AD Mecca builds The Pyramids
_10 AD Capture Heliopolis with The Hanging Gardens and The Statue of Zeus
_10 AD Destroy Japan
_30 AD War Babylon
_50 AD War Arabia
_70 AD Capture Babylon with The Colossus
_70 AD Capture Mecca with The Pyramids
_70 BC Destroy Korea
_90 AD Destroy Egypt
130 AD Emerge Military Great Leader​

In the end I had the Wonders needed for a Golden Age and even a leader
who could have rushed Heroic Epic, which I believe would have
triggered the Golden Age. But at that stage, an Army seemed to pay
back more. And I wasn't sure if a minor Wonder is enough to trigger
the Golden Age.

Since only China was militaristic but a naturally born loser, it was
unreasonable to hope for a Wonder-triggered Golden Age. I'm happy I
didn't even try to build a Wonder. The Predator obstacles were really,
really hard.

Domination in 190 AD, Jason score just under 12'000.

 

[Megalou]

@piú f
What does the militaristic trait have to do with anything? Do you mean China would be more likely to build militaristic wonders? Even if that is so, most AI wonders are the results of cascades and The Great Wall in particular is always leftovers because Construction is one of the last techs of the AA. As for Sun Tzu it is obvious that none of the AIs would have a chance to learn it in time.

 

[Più Freddo]

What does the militaristic trait have to do with anything?

Dunno. But no one cared to build militaristic Wonders.

Do you mean China would be more likely to build militaristic wonders? Even if that is so, most AI wonders are the results of cascades and The Great Wall in particular is always leftovers because Construction is one of the last techs of the AA. As for Sun Tzu it is obvious that none of the AIs would have a chance to learn it in time.

Actually, as it turned out, there were no cascades. You are right about STAoW, of course. And only Egypt could build SoZ and actually did. None of this was known in the early game when one had to decide whether to build a Wonder or not. Maybe it was more superstition that held me back, seeing all these Religious tribes, and the fact that it was Pangaea.

But Construction was out in 1050 and Feudalism in 1025. The Wonders were finished later. Sure, not every AI knew Feudalism. One could have made sure they did, which would have meant meeting more Pikemen. (I actually killed one, the rest were all Spearmen.) Mostly lacking Feudalism, the AI was most of the time busy building cosy Religious Wonders and only then started on STAoW.

 

[Memento]

@predators

 

[Megalou]

Dunno. But no one cared to build militaristic Wonders.

Japan built it in my game. They actually are militaristic. Considering there were only 6 AIs, wonders were more scarce. I wouldn't say it was hopeless to get a golden age but evidently it was very hard to get it early enough.

 

[Più Freddo]

Considering there were only 6 AIs, wonders were more scarce. I wouldn't say it was hopeless to get a golden age but evidently it was very hard to get early enough.

Yes. I did have the Wonders needed collected in the end of the game, so for another victory condition it would have been quite OK. Perhaps civ_steve is trying to even out the odds between the military and the other victory conditions?

 

[aobaki]

4 spt -> rush to 40 shields using MDI, 5 turns remain

I did not understand that mean.What is the "using MDI" and "4 spt". Please explain it

 

[CKS]

If the town produces 4 shields per turn (4 spt), he starts to build a medieval infantry (MDI) and then rushes it. Once he has paid for the shields but before the turn ends, he changes the build to a keshik, so he has 40 shields in with 20 to go. At 4 shields per turn, this takes 5 turns.

 

[Megalou]

It's a method used to 1) Build troops faster, 2) Avoid wasting shields.
If you have very much money, you can simply hurry a keshik when you have only one shield in the shield box. But it will cost you around 250 gold. And besides the high cost, the shields that the town earns on the next turn will be wasted, because you already filled the shield box when you hurried the keshik.

The method described by Più Freddo helps against both these problems, high cost and wasted shields. I don't think that the example that you quoted is the clearest one around, so I will choose another one.

Let's say that a town is making 29 shields per turn and is building a keshik. If you don't hurry the keshik, it will take 3 turns to build it. (It costs 60 shields.) But you have gathered 87 shields, so when the keshik is finished you will have wasted 27 shields. This is very irritating - naturally, you want to build the keshik in two turns. But of course you don't want to pay more gold than necessary. If you collect 29 turns and then hurry the keshik, you will get in 2 turns, but you will have to pay for 31 shields, which costs over 100 gold. Instead, you do it like this: Hurry a medielval infantry. (They cost 40 shields) You pay gold for only 11 shields. When you have hurried the medielval infantry, you change your build back to keshik! In the next interturn, the town will gather 29 more shields and the keshik will be finished. So you have built the keshik in two turns but instead of buying 31 shields you have bought only 11, saving a lot of gold.

In the example that you quoted, Più Freddo hurried a medieval infantry, changed it to keshik and then let the town finish the build, earning 40+4+4+4+4+4 = exactly 60 shields. It's an example of how you can hurry something and make sure you don't waste any shields at all. Of course, he could have built the keshik from scratch for 15 turns (4*15) and not waste any shields either, but at some point in Più Freddo's very fast game it must have been too late to wait for 15 turns for a keshik to be finished - the game would already be over!

That method is called short-rushing.

Another useful trick when you want to to finish a unit REALLY quick, in just one turn - is to disband a worthless unit (warrior, catapult) in a town before you rush. If you do this you halve the cost by avoiding the penalty for rushing with an empty shield box. The only time this doesn't work is if the town is in resistance. In GOTM107 I built libraries in one turn in towns with resistance by disbanding cavalries and musketmen, filling the shield box, because I was sure I wouldn't need those units.

 

[Più Freddo]

Of course, he could have built the keshik from scratch for 15 turns (4*15) and not waste any shields either, but at some point in Più Freddo's very fast game it must have been too late to wait for 15 turns for a keshik to be finished - the game would already be over!

At that stage perhaps it is time to rush to the full already. The thing with 4 spt is, that I had many other towns producing more, but since short-rushing there was fairly limited, I short-rushed in the eligible ones of all these towns first and still had gold to spend, so I would short-rush also in cities with production as low as 4 spt.

The limitations to short-rushing are e.g. that there is no unit or building costing 50 spt. So each town spends many turns per unit being ineligble for short-rushing. For normal Knights at 70 shields, you can short-rush to 60 shields using e.g. a Granary (before you capture The Pyramids, that is), and then you can short-rush more often and can afford to do it in fewer towns only. Then the 4 spt towns might be left to build for 15 turns in the mid-game.

Another useful trick when you want to to finish a unit REALLY quick, in just one turn - is to disband a worthless unit (warrior, catapult) in a town before you rush.

Or, if no unit is available, rush a Worker for 80 gold and then rush the rest at half price.

 

[aobaki]

It's a method used to 1) Build troops faster, 2) Avoid wasting shields.
If you have very much money, you can simply hurry a keshik when you have only one shield in the shield box. But it will cost you around 250 gold. And besides the high cost, the shields that the town earns on the next turn will be wasted, because you already filled the shield box when you hurried the keshik.

The method described by Più Freddo helps against both these problems, high cost and wasted shields. I don't think that the example that you quoted is the clearest one around, so I will choose another one.

Let's say that a town is making 29 shields per turn and is building a keshik. If you don't hurry the keshik, it will take 3 turns to build it. (It costs 60 shields.) But you have gathered 87 shields, so when the keshik is finished you will have wasted 27 shields. This is very irritating - naturally, you want to build the keshik in two turns. But of course you don't want to pay more gold than necessary. If you collect 29 turns and then hurry the keshik, you will get in 2 turns, but you will have to pay for 31 shields, which costs over 100 gold. Instead, you do it like this: Hurry a medielval infantry. (They cost 40 shields) You pay gold for only 11 shields. When you have hurried the medielval infantry, you change your build back to keshik! In the next interturn, the town will gather 29 more shields and the keshik will be finished. So you have built the keshik in two turns but instead of buying 31 shields you have bought only 11, saving a lot of gold.

In the example that you quoted, Più Freddo hurried a medieval infantry, changed it to keshik and then let the town finish the build, earning 40+4+4+4+4+4 = exactly 60 shields. It's an example of how you can hurry something and make sure you don't waste any shields at all. Of course, he could have built the keshik from scratch for 15 turns (4*15) and not waste any shields either, but at some point in Più Freddo's very fast game it must have been too late to wait for 15 turns for a keshik to be finished - the game would already be over!

That method is called short-rushing.

Another useful trick when you want to to finish a unit REALLY quick, in just one turn - is to disband a worthless unit (warrior, catapult) in a town before you rush. If you do this you halve the cost by avoiding the penalty for rushing with an empty shield box. The only time this doesn't work is if the town is in resistance. In GOTM107 I built libraries in one turn in towns with resistance by disbanding cavalries and musketmen, filling the shield box, because I was sure I wouldn't need those units.

Thanks Megaloui
That is very useful info for me. I used only quick rush with Warriors but I did not try MDI to Keshik.
BR,

 

[Lanzelot]

The only time this doesn't work is if the town is in resistance. In GOTM107 I built libraries in one turn in towns with resistance by disbanding cavalries and musketmen, filling the shield box, because I was sure I wouldn't need those units.

A question comes to my mind here: does a town produce culture while being in resistance? (It's a basic question, but I admit: I never really paid attention to that...) I know you don't produce culture while being in anarchy, and I think there is also a limitation, if your government is Fascism, then a town does not produce culture, if 50% or more of its inhabitants have a foreign nationality.

In one of my games I used the "disband units in resisting towns" for the following purpose: I was going for Conquest victory and I had only a few more towns to go -- and one settler on a boat. I saw that galley sailing past one of my captured cities, so I knew where it was. However, all towns close by were still in resistance, and sending a caravel down there from somewhere else would take ages. So I disbanded four cavs (which would not be needed for the remaining few towns anyway) in the two cities next to the enemy galley and got the two caravels finished next turn, even though the cities were still in resistance. (Quelling the resistance and then rushing the caravels would have taken many turns, as this were big size 11 or 10 cities. By that time the floating settler might have traveled anywhere...)

Lanzelot

 

[Megalou]

A question comes to my mind here: does a town produce culture while being in resistance? (It's a basic question, but I admit: I never really paid attention to that...) I know you don't produce culture while being in anarchy, and I think there is also a limitation, if your government is Fascism, then a town does not produce culture, if 50% or more of its inhabitants have a foreign nationality.

Towns produce culture normally in spite of resistance.

No spoiler, Lancelot?

 

[Lanzelot]

No spoiler, Lancelot?

The ISDG takes too much time. (May get better, once it has started... )