Could Early Heroes Upgrade?

[Solanus]

More to the point of asking the question: Should racial and religious heroes available early in the game be able to upgrade into more advanced versions of themselves after acquiring later-game techs? Is the early utility of these heroes balanced by their potential limited usefulness late in the game?

For example: Gilden Silveric is one of the earliest heroes available in the game. When you get him, he's actually fairly awesome, because he's a kick-ass Archer. But that's all he'll ever really be, because he can't develop additional core abilities as the game progresses, only gain promotions available to a hero Archer. A Longbowman is able to use Bronze and Iron weapon promotions, never mind the much higher base strength of a Flurry or Marksman unit.

 

[UNIT 666]

Improving the early heroes later on would be unfair to the heroes that come later in the game.

 

[jacomanring]

I agree with Unit666. Later heroes could not upgrade anymore and so they will be penalized. Moreover, I think it's good to have stronger and weaker heroes, it adds strategy and flavour.

 

[jrandrew]

Well, there could be some adjustments to tweak this, though.

What if "upgrading" required:

1. Some specific chain of promotions which were not as immediately advantageous as other promotions not in the "upgrade to newer hero" chain.

2. Tons of gold

3. In particular cases, other strange, costly requirements. E.g. "upgrading" Bambur would require destroying a Gold resource. "Upgrading" Gilden means losing a city to a rival (for the storyline, Gilden tries to defend the city, loses the battle, but learns and grows from his experiences.)

Or, upgrading could also transform the unit from a normal unit to a Commander. The commander would not be as directly militarily strong, but a Hero commander would be pretty awesome. The "upgrade" could reset all promotions and bring the unit back to level 1 so that the Hero promotions and its 1XP per turn is actually useful.

 

[xienwolf]

If you wanted early heroes to upgrade, you'd be just as capable of making weak versions of the late heroes which come early (eventually upgrading to the proper hero again). But without doing so, it does wind up being unfair to the late hero units.

 

[civ_king]

Heros are period specific, kickass in their period and get weaker, they are like UUs in BtS

IMHO:
however for example Gilden should be able to gain metal weapons at the tech which unlocks longbows

 

[readercolin]

One key difference between early and late hero's is the amount of xp they have. Getting Gilden in the early game, you usually have him fighting throughout most of the mage. By the time for example, the khazid get Maros, Gilden will usually already have 100+ xp. When Maros gets 100xp, he would be stronger than gilden, gilden will probably be closer to 200xp by this time. This is the real reason why it would be a bad idea to have early hero's upgrade into stronger hero's later on. On the other hand, if you were to make weaker versions of the earlier units, I wouldn't see any problem with it. (Note, rise of darkness has already implemented this)

-Colin

 

[Swinkscalibur]

I want to look into this a bit. I think there is a point here, obviously balance and gameplay are key features to take into account. But so are fun and logic.

Ex) Unless there is some Lore I am not aware of, Gilden not upgrading to longbows when the rest of his army is, is simply illogical and not very heroic. The exact method for balancing and effecting this sort of upgrade is something that needs to be carefully thought out.

I can easily handle the xml and minimal python work something like this would entail, but I am certainly no artist. Any changes I make would therefore be restricted to things without art (no changing form as you upgrade)

Edit: The xp factor is going to be a big one, but could be handled by creating a new unit that does not carry over all of the same promotions. Or by resetting the lvl and xp and promotions of the unit.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

You could also penalize heroes that upgrade. No more xp when you promote? No second upgrade (so if you promote to a T3, no T4?)? Or you could reverse the xp gained from a promoted hero until a point.

 

[Swinkscalibur]

I'm thinking you could grant a promoted early hero a promotion like enervated, with a more appropriate name which grants decreased xp gain past a certain point.

Sounds like there are lots of options. It should be fun to feel a few of them out. I'll post a list of ideas/suggestions after I give it a good once over.

 

[Solanus]

The first big gimp that I think the early heroes get is no access to the standard metal weapon auto-promotions, especially when all of their standard unit contemporaries get them. Even with the combined bonuses of the first 100XP, their T2 equivalents can nearly match their base strength with just Iron or Mithril that they get with just a Mine and some Roads. If the heroes can get those promotions, either automatically or be able to buy the promotion with gold, just like an upgrade or the Master building equipment, that would work.

The next option would be to offer some of the increased abilities as promotions, either straight level-ups or purchasable (with level/pre-req min). Make the improvements incremental and equal to other promotions available around the same time. In other words, if you want to make Gilden closer to a Flurry, you would probably have to burn through a few level ups, and then buy a handful of upgrades at a Fletcher or Bowyer, rather than just plopping down a sack of gold one time.

I don't know how this would be balanced out with the later game heroes, but I think many of them lack opportunities in these areas, too. I wouldn't restrict the "upgrade" options I'm looking at for the early-game heroes from the later-game heroes.

 

[Swinkscalibur]

Add or subtract from these lists as you see fit

Heroes that could use a boost of some sort as the game progresses:

Alazkan
Bambur
Barnaxus
Gildon
Lucian
Rantine
Blackwind

Heroes that could have a prior, not fully activated version:

Meskwaki
Sphener
Teutorix
War Machine

 

[Dean_the_Young]

War Machine especially: it's supposed to get better the more the enemies are advanced.

 

[UNIT 666]

Add or subtract from these lists as you see fit

Heroes that could use a boost of some sort as the game progresses:

Alazkan
Bambur
Barnaxus
Gildon
Lucian
Rantine
Blackwind

Heroes that could have a prior, not fully activated version:

Meskwaki
Sphener
Teutorix
War Machine

If this sort of thing is passed for heroes, how long until wonders are affected? Also, the Doviello and Sheaim are at the opposite ends of the UNBALANCED spectrum.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

If this sort of thing is passed for heroes, how long until wonders are affected?

Never, unless you do it yourself. It's not like wonders are sacred anyway.

 

[readercolin]

Well, continuing to take gilden as an example, it is entirely possible for him to match a longbowman. He is base strength 6, and can get heroic attack and defense, which brings him up to base strength 8, the exact same as a longbowman. Add in Orthus's ax and enchanted arrows, and it brings him up to strength 10. If he were able to use bronze and iron, he would then be able to get up to strength 10 base, +1-2 for enchanted arrows and orthus's ax. Even as it is, he is a match for t3 units, even though he is only t2. The only thing that could beat him out of the gate would be a t4. If he was able to get bronze and iron, then even they would have trouble.

Another example of an early hero is bambur. Bambur is strength 5, can use bronze, iron, and mithril. When he comes out, he is better than an axman. Once you get iron (probably from the mines), he'll be strength 7 - strength 9 when you add heroic attack and defense. Add mithril and he's strength 11 - 12 if you give him orthus's ax. Again, he is better than any t3 unit, and only beaten by t4's.

What exactly do you want out of these hero's?

-Colin

 

[Swinkscalibur]

I think the idea, is that they have some interesting dynamic late game that keeps them relevant and interesting while not making them unbalancing.

 

[odalrick]

How about letting them retire, become teachers and give new units a free promotion.

Fairly powerful, so require a national wonder to be built. After all, they're your nation's hero, they can't just teach in a shack in the slums.

Maybe we could even have a spell that allows them to come out of retirement and start fighting again...

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Gilden is a bad example because promoting him up the drill/blitz line and giving him the defensive strike promos keeps him relevant throughout the whole game, even when he stops being able to beat people in direct combat.

Actually, none of the proper heroes I can think of really suffer from obsolescence (Lucian doesn't count). Rantine is probably the worst off of them all? And even he can still kill stuff well into the iron age.

 

[tokala]

How about letting them retire, become teachers and give new units a free promotion.

What about "retiring" into a kind of special great commander that can aquire combat and commander promotions. Isn't it more fitting for a national hero to inspire his comrades on the battlefield?