Could use some advice for normal speed (immortal)

[mariogreymist]

Okay, after walking all over a emperor/normal forum game yesterday, I started a normal speed emperor game with a random leader to see how it would go. I stopped it, because it was getting too silly to bother. (Hatty) At that point, I started to think that maybe normal speed is just easier than marathon (no matter how much people will tell you otherwise) and to prove/disprove this idea I started an immortal game, this time picking my old standby, Mehmed as my leader.

The game so far:
Initially, the start doesn't look that grand. One food (albeit irrigated corn), and marble.

The rest I will put in spoiler tags, as I've included a 4000BCE save for those who want to give it a roll. (it's a good starting area, I'll give that much away)

Spoiler :

After moving my warrior, I decide to take a look where the blue circle was: (1NW)

I immediately settle, knowing the meaning of joy and fulfillment (at least of my belly):

So I began researching AH>fishing>mining>bw>sailing>masonry. What I did not yet know, was the fact that I was located on a peninsula, with a 1-tile isthmus connecting me to the mainland. Settling that quickly was priority 1, so as soon as I had my specials working, a settler went out.

I settled two more cities in the N and E, and with limited scouting at the time (hence the lousy placement of Ankara...I just NEEDED the copper)

You might have noticed the queue in Istanbul from the last shot...muhahaha.

I founded confucianism and Taoism (bulbed) and build two more wonders (sorry, no screenies), the G Library (Istanbul) and Angkor Wat (Ankara).

So here's where it gets weird for me in normal speed games: I just plug along and trade as much as is I can to barely keep up with the AIs. But I don't find myself with an advantage for a long long time, just like in marathon/epic speeds (at immortal). But then, I make a massive bit of brokering (Education, paper and philo as bait) when I am a few turns short of liberalism, resulting in the following situation. (and sorry there's not much story to tell between building the glh and getting liberalism, but there really isnt...
techs:

Demos:

Nearby geography:

I have an inkling that my lead won't last, given my gnp isn't that great. But there are two relatively weak neighbors with lots of land nearby (Kublai/SB). I can have a cannon/jannisary army in relatively short order if I decide to go for that. It seems the right move, but obsolescence comes so fast at this speed I am unsure. Can someone offer me some pointers on how to get this war up and running and successfully prosecuted at normal speed? I am assuming I want to abandon researching Econ (even though I may yet get a free GM) and start building theatres for the globe. Is there more I need to be doing?

Alternately, is there a plan better than a jannissary war from this point?

 

[kossin]

Cannons don't become obsolete before... well they even do okay against Infantry. That should give you plenty of time. If the Globe isn't up yet do so and start preparing war.

 

[DampRain]

Hi Mario,

First note, the main way that Marathon differs to normal I believe personally is how many turns of war you can have before you lose a tech advantage. As many other people have said in other threads, movement is alot more powerful, and where war might be feasible for marathon, not so for normal where the enemy could tech to parity by the time you have your SoD.

That aside, onto the game:

I'm curious, on a continent with land to obtain, why have you gone for Astro? It looks like if you conquered your entire continent you'd have a domination victory (or space or diplo possibly even) in the bag. The reason I mention is that on normal you need to give yourself as much time as possible to take advantage of superior tech. Opened your save why printing press? Given that you're going for Janiss + cannons, PP while it does give an economic boost, its boost doesnt match its cost for quite some time.

Also, did the AIs get education from trading with you? Because I generally consider that a bad trade due to them getting unis, Oxford. It also lessens the amount of time you abuse lib for. What did you get from lib btw?

As for war, definitely janis,cannon. You lack strong decent production centres, you also seem to have spammed cottages and specialists everywhere (not necessarily bad, but you could have specialised one or two cities to be hammer heavy). So now as a result you really need the GT for drafting and slavery to mass build cannons/upgrade trebs, cats to cannons. So switching to theocracy for the extra promotions might be good (You have a Great person with varying %s coming in, so while pacifisim gets there faster, being either a GP or a GS which atm isn't particularly useful. A tiny detail, the cottage/town, thingy 2 W 1 S of cap should be for cap, cap takes advantage more due to acad + bureau.

Ankara, instead of building settler and being a Gprophet farm would make a half decent hammer city. So put up workshops, even without cast looking at 4 hammers per tile.

At the moment I think your position isn't easy and some previous decisions could have really improved your position for a war, but I do think you can take out GK plus SB with cannons Janiss, provided you mass draft Janiss, and either whip cannons, or build cats then upgrade then after steel (dont think u can pull a GM out in time with realistic odds, could be wrong though) through 0% slider. On a good note, GK at war with SB is hugely in your favour.

Anyway good luck and tell us how it goes.

 

[mariogreymist]

I'm curious, on a continent with land to obtain, why have you gone for Astro?

Primarily for overseas trade routes/resources. I can use espionage to pull charlie into decentralization, hopefully long enough that econ starts popping up so we can get to FM.

Opened your save why printing press?

Was part of the trading bonanza on education. ...

Also, did the AIs get education from trading with you? Because I generally consider that a bad trade due to them getting unis, Oxford.

Yes. I really should have taken some screenshots of the tech situation before I did that...you probably wouldn't have disagreed had you seen how deep my liberalism beeline was. When feasible, I like to deny ed to the AIs. It just wasn't here.

It also lessens the amount of time you abuse lib for. What did you get from lib btw?

Astro. Proabably would have been better off taking Chemistry, but happiness was getting to be an issue and I wanted access to overseas resources.

As for war, definitely janis,cannon. You lack strong decent production centres, you also seem to have spammed cottages and specialists everywhere (not necessarily bad, but you could have specialised one or two cities to be hammer heavy). So now as a result you really need the GT for drafting and slavery to mass build cannons/upgrade trebs, cats to cannons. So switching to theocracy for the extra promotions might be good (You have a Great person with varying %s coming in, so while pacifisim gets there faster, being either a GP or a GS which atm isn't particularly useful. A tiny detail, the cottage/town, thingy 2 W 1 S of cap should be for cap, cap takes advantage more due to acad + bureau.

That is the plan, though I am am going to try to remain as non-dependent on upgrades as I can without taking chances. I'll probably already have all my Jannissaries ready to go when I hit steel, and have everything whipping cannons for several turns immediately before the war.

Ankara, instead of building settler and being a Gprophet farm would make a half decent hammer city. So put up workshops, even without cast looking at 4 hammers per tile.

It is a city, that's going to spawn exactly one GP. With as many happy leaders and open borders as I have, wasting a founded religion is a bit sinful, imo. I built AW basically because I wasn't sure when I'd be warring. The backup plan, for the chance that I was unable to broker my way into the position I am now in, was to use a taoist shrine to shore up the economy to allow a later (arty/infantry) war.

At the moment I think your position isn't easy and some previous decisions could have really improved your position for a war, but I do think you can take out GK plus SB with cannons Janiss, provided you mass draft Janiss, and either whip cannons, or build cats then upgrade then after steel (dont think u can pull a GM out in time with realistic odds, could be wrong though) through 0% slider. On a good note, GK at war with SB is hugely in your favour.

I am sure I've made a hundred mistakes in this game. I might have been better off spamming cities instead of my gradual settlement pattern, especially given that I get cheap workers so one of the benefits of slower settlement was lessened. Given that I had the glh, it wasn't like I'd have had a complete crash of the economy if I'd done that. I might be able to have a GM as I hit steel, if I time building the NE in Istanbul just right (so I get my prophet) and go for castes. I don't think I'll try that however, as timing these things is foreign to me in any speed but marathon.

Anyway good luck and tell us how it goes.

Thank you...will do. I am not going to pick this up until later tonight, but I'll post my end game one way or the other.

 

[Grashopa]

The start screamed HAs to me:

Spoiler :

Because of the hammers around the capital. Probably should have put a settler where old sarai is. He founded it recently and it adds 4 turns before I can get to the capital, but from here I'm sure SB is also doable. Thats a great cap KK has... so tech path should lean towards finding a way to use that food.

 

[mariogreymist]

The war is on:

Spoiler :

The stack to the N is 2 jannissaries and 6 cannons, with more on the way. Full war economy, as SB is backwards enough to defeat, and has enough land to give me a shot for conquest.

I'll let you all know how it turns out in a while.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

I think Normal is harder generally, you really have to keep moving to stay ahead of the AI's. Maybe it's a good fit for you though; it's been working for me.

 

[NihilZero]

I can understand the logic of people saying that Marathon is easier than Normal (ie units move three times as fast and you can build more of them, making offensive war a walk in the park), but what factors do you think make Normal easier?

I've never tried Marathon, I'm just curious.

 

[mariogreymist]

I don't like it. I am quitting this game, though it is probably winnable by someone who is gifted at warring at this speed. I'll attach the save for anyone who wants to look - I've broken SB's defenses, but am WAY behind in tech against the rest of the world. I've drafted my economy into absolute oblivion, and had to to overcome SBs defenses. Once SB/KK are mopped up, it should be a matter of using all that land to tech then build sufficient bombers/arty/rifles to win. But I just don't care enough about it to bother at this point.

I'll play epic, but warring on normal is about as much fun for me as a root canal. (and I love root canals so much that I haven't been to a dentist in 15 years)

 

[DampRain]

Bad luck, well at least you've got the experience from it.

 

[Nkat]

I have always played on Normal Speed. Will the game be easier if I play a game at Marathon or Epic Speed?

 

[mariogreymist]

Bad luck, well at least you've got the experience from it.

Yeah...I'm not one to , but the RNG gods were against me in that war too. At one point I lost 5 consecutive 60%+ encounters. And all the experience has done for me is to know that I should just quit a normal speed game the moment that warfare becomes the main meanst towards victory. Less frustration in the long run.

Or better yet, to just not bother.

And @Nikat: It depends on what you want to do. I think peaceful games are much easier at normal speed than marathon, particularly at high levels where the AI bonuses can have a snowballing effect on longer games.

and honestly: this game was lost (if it was indeed lost rather than just surrendered) by my inexperience at the speed. If I were the kind of guy that never hits the spacebar to end a turn without checking my cities, this was an easy W. And even with that inexperience, I did find a very advantageous situation, even if I did screw it up pretty badly.

 

[Silu]

Yes, all your comments indicate that you played Normal exactly like Marathon is played; I am not surprised it didn't work out so well. You should expect some troubles when trying to shove a square peg down a round hole Warring on normal isn't that horrible if you approach it differently.

Peace on Normal is easier than peace on Marathon, but since playing peacefully on Normal is much harder than warmongering on Marathon, that doesn't really affect the overall difficulty of the speeds.

 

[Inso]

War is perfectly possible on normal speed, just have to be more precise and strike quickly. Its important to scope out the enemy properly and have a couple of stacks to take cities with speed, if wars drag on 3-400 years can easily pass and the rest of the AI have steamed ahead in tech, especially on immortal. Will certainly take some adjustment if you're used to epic/marathon.

I've tried the slower speeds myself and just can't handle it, everything takes far too long and I seem to mess up the timing of everything. War is a bit easier, especially early rushes, but I just like normal too much it feels so right.

 

[mariogreymist]

Playing on normal just makes me feel like I am sliding down an icy hill for the full duration of the game, whereas epic is more like skiing on a groomed slope and marathon like being in the powder. (Quick is like skiing moguls, backwards) I just find the slower games to be more fun to play. Getting lax in micro isn't punished so much, and I am playing for fun and not for some kind of concentration drill.

 

[AveiMil]

What's not fun about concentration drills?!

 

[budweiser]

Marble in the BFC is a godsend. I havent read the whole thread yet. Did you try to maker any use of it at all?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

My take on this game:

View attachment Mario Greymist AD-1894.CivBeyondSwordSave

Spoiler :

Basically the presence of SB in a heathen religion distracted them all early. I got KK to pleased easily. I was actually planning a renaissance stomping since I had a solid tech lead past winning lib. But, the AI did that permanent alliance tech share garbage (aka peacevassal), so I decided to latch onto the benefactor too.

Thanks to getting sistine, some good wonders, and a bunch of settled specs, I didn't need any culture multipliers in the capitol past the 100% for free speech. I put my 3 cathedrals in the other 2, ran as many artists as I could (I only got like 4 great artists...well 5 if you count the music one I settled for research early on :/), and spammed end turn.

I had a DP with justinian so nobody would declare on me. If Justinian DoW'd charlie, then my only war threat would be getting pounded by my DP ally anyway.

So basically I re-tooled culture midway into the game and had no trouble crossing the finish line before the AI. They had > 50 turns to space wins probably and even more to culture.

No warz 4 me at all.

 

[Riot]

Haha, you attacked SB.

Protective civs aren't worth your time.

I think you made an error in your VC as compared to TMIT obviously, here's what it is:

You are on a continent with Justinian and Saladin - both zealots, neither of whom declare at Pleased.

Both of them are quite decent techers/culture guys/builders actually! Since they're neighbors with each other, once at Pleased they're going to just tech...and tech...and tech.

Anyway, as TMIT said - you should've just joined the religious block, ran KK's favorite civic (you're going to do this anyway) to get him to Pleased, and used that marble to also build Sistine.

Remember, SB has a 90% (!) peace probability at Cautious.

You probably need to tighten up your city micro, your city settlement, and your wonders.

Why exactly do you need/want the GLH on this map?

I don't think you needed to get Astro so fast either honestly.

Edirne is in a really awful, terrible spot. Blocking off that isthmus is honestly NOT a priority.

After AH I think I'd have gotten the Wheel and Writing actually.

Also I don't think you NEEDED the copper. Chariots do just fine as early anti-barb defense in the beginning.

Anyway, I also think moving Istanbul to the coast was a mistake.

Finally:

You should certainly play to your strengths, so I understand building the GLH with Mehmed's discounted Lighthouses etc., but I think you're too used to building the GLH. Don't be rote with your habits. You got the GLH in 700 BC. That's honestly pretty late in my opinion. I'd have gone more with a GL approach here with the marble, maybe tried for the Oracle, and likely gone for Music too.

 

[Negator_UK]

Haven't played the games as I'm away from my Civ computer - and I'm not an immortal anyway..

But...

At normal speed cannon+ are probably my most common conquest tool - my guess is you made a mistake by trying to eat a whole AI at once - very often I have to stop before winning a war outright in which case I just take my bigger empire and play from there. It often sucks though and it does make the game micro-heavy, hence the bordeom you encountered - I too have quit many games this way..